Is Jokic the most complete offensive player ever?

[BelgradeNugget]

I don't think so. Here is a question you should ask yourself. Without knowing anything about the opposing team, who do you want to have out there in the last 15 seconds? You have to score 2 points and they will not be making fouls, all players are their peak versions.

Without knowing anything about the opponent I would not be picking Jokic. I love the guy but I think at least partially he thrives because great defensive C's are out of the league. If the opposing team has a great defensive C, you can't go with Jokic, you have better options.

If the strongest opposing player is Trae Young instead... hm, I STILL wouldn't pick Jokic, I'd go for Shaq.

Well, Shaq was on the bench often in last 15 secs of close games because he couldn't hit free throws. Jokic finished series against Jazz in POs 2 years ago hitting game winning shot against multiple DPOY Gobert. In next series against LA in game 2 scored against Davis with 20 secs left to put Nuggets in lead (AD later returned a favor by hitting game winning 3 ). Scored game-winning shots against Embiid, KAT...
Of course I would pick Jordan for game winning shot, just wanted to point to the fact that Jokic was pretty successful himself.

[lobosloboslobos]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

Bird sucked at getting to the line and drawing fouls. He also had a weak handle and weak off the dribble game with some severe athletic limitations. Somebody like Bryant was at least as complete. It's ludicrous that he hasn't even been mentioned.

Actually a good point. Kobe has zero offensive weaknesses.

Kobe had many seasons of bombing a high volume of 3s (especially for the time) at poor to terrible %

[Duke4life831]

Bird sucked at getting to the line and drawing fouls. He also had a weak handle and weak off the dribble game with some severe athletic limitations. Somebody like Bryant was at least as complete. It's ludicrous that he hasn't even been mentioned.

If this is the case, I mean if Bird couldn't get to the line and he had no off the dribble game. Why was he such a far more efficient scorer than Kobe? Its not like he was jacking up a ton of catch and shoot 3s back then and that is why he was so efficient.

Bird's career 2pt% is 51%. Kobe surpassed 50% shooting from 2, just 1 time in his career. How was Bird able to do that with his severe athletic limitations and weak off the dribble game?

Im actually a fan of Kobe's, I've become a far bigger fan of his as the years have gone by. But ya me saying he wasn't as good as Bird overall on the offensive end isn't some shot at Kobe. Definitely not one where the response should be some outlandishly bad takes on Bird to try and prop up Kobe.

Lmao

What the hell are you even talking about? Bird and Kobe had the exact same scoring efficiency for their careers

Kobe's career TS+: 104
Bird's career TS+: 104

Ya'll are still going off narratives and perceptions instead of looking at the data. It's hilarious. Bird wasn't even remotely close to being "far" more efficient as a scorer and 2pt% is completely useless as a measure of scoring efficiency.

And it's a literal fact that Bird struggled to get to the line and draw fouls, which is why his free throw rates were so consistently low. How is it outlandish to point out facts?

The rest of your post is nonsense. Nobody is even discussing who's better than who. The question is who's more complete.

"Outlandish statements" lmao. You just said Bird was a far more efficient scorer when they have the same scoring efficiency for their careers. You just used 2pt% as a measure of scoring efficiency. And you're the one coming up with ridiculous strawmen. Where the hell did I say Bryant was a better offensive player?

Lets look at prime offensive Bird and his back 2 back 50/40/90 seasons. He had a 61TS% both of those years, that was 7% higher than the NBA average. Can you point to any Kobe season where he was that much more efficient compared to the rest of the NBA during his time? I also didnt challenge you on the FT attempt part. I just dont think that is a big deal when it comes to offensive skill set personally.

But with that said. I give it to you. Far more efficient was an exaggeration. Prime offensive Bird was more efficient but I agree far more is an exaggeration.

I also never said you said Bryant was the better offensive player.

[DCasey91]

87 and 88 Magic definitely belongs in this conversation. As shooters overall I put Magic/LBJ on level pegging (can even say Magic was better holistically especially from his FT++% for his size).

Last 4 years he shot 34.5% from 3 (772 attempts) which is a large enough sample size on +3Par on league average but with plus volume relative to comp.

In fact his best shooting year from range he took more volume (1990 106/276 38.4%). Which actually makes sense as he had such a great ft% and I bet it’s the rhythm thing.

Conclusion:

If Magic shot from outside from the beginning let alone the mid 90’s with closer lines he’s pretty much a more effective offensive Lebron imo.

[Sgt Major]

No, it's the GOAT, aka MJ.

[70sFan]

It really isn't.

Jokic over the last 3 seasons has been in the 72-76% FG% range from 0-3 feet and an incredible 57-60% from 3-10 feet. Shaq was 73-79% from 0-3 feet and 40-45% from 3-10 feet in his prime. Giannis is 76-84% from 0-3 feet but just 33-40% from 3-10 over the last 3 seasons. I suspect that Jokic's percentages from 0-3 feet are also depressed a bit because of how often he tries to tip the ball in on the offensive glass.

Yes, it is. Volume my man. Volume

Giannis 0-3 feet last season: 83.7% on 45% of his FGA's
Jokic 0-3 feet last season: 75% on 24% of his FGA's

A lot of Giannis's 0-3 feet volume is off transition buckets, so it's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison. If we're talking about finishing in traffic, Jokic has got to be among the best in the league.

It's still a massive hyperbole to compare Jokic's post game and inside pressence to Shaq though. The difference in volume is just massive and Jokic didn't absorb the same level of defensive focus inside.

[70sFan]

Not a single mention of Magic Johnson? Poor job GB...

I'd also add Oscar Robertson - in terms of "completeness" he's up there with anyone.

[rtiff68]

Not a single mention of Magic Johnson? Poor job GB...

I'd also add Oscar Robertson - in terms of "completeness" he's up there with anyone.

Well, the thread title is “most complete,” not “most impactful.”

Magic definitely immediately comes to mind when talking about the latter, but not necessarily the former.

[70sFan]

Not a single mention of Magic Johnson? Poor job GB...

I'd also add Oscar Robertson - in terms of "completeness" he's up there with anyone.

Well, the thread title is “most complete,” not “most impactful.”

Magic definitely immediately comes to mind when talking about the latter, but not necessarily the former.

Magic fits both criteria, he was the ultimate offensive force at his peak.

[rtiff68]

Not a single mention of Magic Johnson? Poor job GB...

I'd also add Oscar Robertson - in terms of "completeness" he's up there with anyone.

Well, the thread title is “most complete,” not “most impactful.”

Magic definitely immediately comes to mind when talking about the latter, but not necessarily the former.

Magic fits both criteria, he was the ultimate offensive force at his peak.

I suppose that when I think of being “most complete offensively,” then being an elite scorer is a prerequisite.

Magic is top 10 all time, and you could certainly say the most impactful offensive player, but a truly elite scorer?

I wouldn’t say that, and I don’t think I’m alone on that.

[Golden Knight]

Not a single mention of Magic Johnson? Poor job GB...

Not a single mention?

[Pennebaker]

No. He's too slow and lumbering. He can pass but can't play the point guard position. Can he play shooting guard? Nope.

The most complete offensive player can play every position and Jokic cannot do that.

[Cubbies2120]

No. He's too slow and lumbering. He can pass but can't play the point guard position. Can he play shooting guard? Nope.

The most complete offensive player can play every position and Jokic cannot do that.

Weird how he averages more assists 2/3 of NBA starting point guards, and his shooting splits trump that of most shooting guards.

This year:
At rim - 76%
3 - 10 Ft: 60%
10 - 16 Ft - 58%
16 FT to 3pt - 56%
3Pt - 39%

[ChuckChilly]

No Kyrie love?

[DCasey91]

No. He's too slow and lumbering. He can pass but can't play the point guard position. Can he play shooting guard? Nope.

The most complete offensive player can play every position and Jokic cannot do that.

Can a player be the judge, jury and executioner?

I guess you haven’t watched much of the Nuggets in the past one and a bit seasons.

Jokic literally does everything for his team Everything!

He quarterbacks the whole offense schemes forget about position. Quarterbacks the defense too

Bird wasn’t a PG/SG that didn’t matter at all.

[levon]

come on now

[DonaldSanders]

Not a single mention of Magic Johnson? Poor job GB...

I'd also add Oscar Robertson - in terms of "completeness" he's up there with anyone.

I guess you skimmed, he got mentioned twice on page 1 and once a couple posts above yours. Not that I'm calling you out though, you clearly spend more time/thought on most of your posts than most of the board

Magic I'd have high for sure.

But the answer has to be MJ who shot almost 39% from 3 in the playoffs during his 1st 3peat. 3.8 attempts per game in the 1992-1993 playoffs. Jordan could do the 3 game just fine and if he was playing now he'd have obsessed over hitting the 3 for his whole career.

During all 6 championships MJ led the playoffs in PPG. In 2 seasons he made deep runs and lead the league in playoff PPG. While Jokic has been impressive, he has not held a candle to MJ yet.

Points and assists, MJ first 3peat:
31.1/8.4
34.5/5.8
35.1/6

Jokic's best 3 runs (his only 3)
25.1/8.4 (2018-2019)
24.4/5.7 (2019-2020)
29.8/5 (2020-2021)

I'll grant you that Jokic grabs more offensive rebounds, but MJ got far more steals. Steals lead to a lot of points/extra possessions just like ORBs. I personally would leave both out of offensive categories but in the 90-91 Finals a big reason the Bulls scored so easily was all the steals leading to easy buckets. Jokic did turn the ball over slightly less though. Jordan's runs also include the NBA finals where you'd expect to play a top team, and Jokic's deepest run is the worst amongst his stats. Jokic plays fewer minutes, but that doesn't matter in the playoffs where your per 36 is moot. To me that negates Jokic's slightly better efficiency.

I think the only player that could compete with MJ on completeness is Magic:

3 best title runs:
17.5/15.2
21.8/12.2
19.9/12.6

Larry was amazing but didn't quite match MJ's scoring output and on more turnovers. LeBron is amazing but his mid range is lacking. I feel like the only one you could argue that challenges MJ in completeness is Magic because of how unbelievable his passing was and how much it helped the team/kept the guys engaged on offense. They accounted for a similar number of points for their team, they both shot well. I'd take MJ but Magic is a close 2nd.

[bubonicphoniks]

Hmmmm. Im gonna say no but hes nice with what he does.

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[art_tatum]

Lol then gets swept in the playoffs by a team that didn't win the title.
Only teams he beat were bad teams. who aren't contenders i.e. the blazers.

[Cubbies2120]

Lol then gets swept in the playoffs by a team that didn't win the title.
Only teams he beat were bad teams. who aren't contenders i.e. the blazers.

Were the Jazz and Clippers bad teams in 2020? Both were favorites against the Nuggets, with the Clips being pretty big favorites. Then they lost to the eventual champs.

In 2021 they got swept by the eventual WC champs, with two starters missing. Not sure that's something that should be held against him...Jordan got swept, LeBron got swept, Kobe got swept, Duncan got swept, Shaq got swept (6x), most all time greats get swept at some point in their careers...is that supposed to be a knock on him?