Is Jokic the most complete offensive player ever?

[Mickey8]

Lol then gets swept in the playoffs by a team that didn't win the title.
Only teams he beat were bad teams. who aren't contenders i.e. the blazers.

Who did Durant beat on his own , before he joined the super team( played with Westbrook and Harden) , he chickened out and joined 70 wins team Are you aware that Denver have played without Murray and Barton and Dozier in the last season play off's , Denver was the third seed in a tough Western Conference, without those players available . Denver never have lost in the first round of the play off's with Jokic. Find me one player who carried their team as much as Jokic did in the last four seasons with that much success , without any co all star teammate I dare you

[art_tatum]

Lol then gets swept in the playoffs by a team that didn't win the title.
Only teams he beat were bad teams. who aren't contenders i.e. the blazers.

Were the Jazz and Clippers bad teams in 2020? Both were favorites against the Nuggets, with the Clips being pretty big favorites. Then they lost to the eventual champs.

In 2021 they got swept by the eventual WC champs, with two starters missing. Not sure that's something that should be held against him...Jordan got swept, LeBron got swept, Kobe got swept, Duncan got swept, Shaq got swept (6x), most all time greats get swept at some point in their careers...is that supposed to be a knock on him?

It is with threads like is jokics season the best offensive ever. Or best advanced stats in history. Greatest offensive player? for last season and this season.
Then the bar is raised. We are not gonna compare him to young Jordan who at least got swept by a all time stacked Celtics team who won multiple titles, no he has to be compared to other best offensive season, prime Jordan, prime curry, etc.
Imo Clips jazz blazers are not contenders but pretenders. Non of them dispite "stars" and great record have been a threat in the playoffs so far

[Cubbies2120]

Lol then gets swept in the playoffs by a team that didn't win the title.
Only teams he beat were bad teams. who aren't contenders i.e. the blazers.

Were the Jazz and Clippers bad teams in 2020? Both were favorites against the Nuggets, with the Clips being pretty big favorites. Then they lost to the eventual champs.

In 2021 they got swept by the eventual WC champs, with two starters missing. Not sure that's something that should be held against him...Jordan got swept, LeBron got swept, Kobe got swept, Duncan got swept, Shaq got swept (6x), most all time greats get swept at some point in their careers...is that supposed to be a knock on him?

It is with threads like is jokics season the best offensive ever. Or best advanced stats in history. Greatest offensive player? for last season and this season.
Then the bar is raised. We are not gonna compare him to young Jordan who at least got swept by a all time stacked Celtics team who won multiple titles, no he has to be compared to other best offensive season, prime Jordan, prime curry, etc.
Imo Clips jazz blazers are not contenders but pretenders. Non of them dispite "stars" and great record have been a threat in the playoffs so far

Ok, Duncan/Shaq/Kobe/Magic got swept in their primes, LeBron got swept twice in the Finals, hell here's a nice list of top 10 all time great players who got swept: https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/nba-legends-and-how-many-times-they-got-swept

If the greatest offensive player discussing is for this season, why are we discussing past playoff results anyways?

[Cubbies2120]

Lol then gets swept in the playoffs by a team that didn't win the title.
Only teams he beat were bad teams. who aren't contenders i.e. the blazers.

Were the Jazz and Clippers bad teams in 2020? Both were favorites against the Nuggets, with the Clips being pretty big favorites. Then they lost to the eventual champs.

In 2021 they got swept by the eventual WC champs, with two starters missing. Not sure that's something that should be held against him...Jordan got swept, LeBron got swept, Kobe got swept, Duncan got swept, Shaq got swept (6x), most all time greats get swept at some point in their careers...is that supposed to be a knock on him?

It is with threads like is jokics season the best offensive ever. Or best advanced stats in history. Greatest offensive player? for last season and this season.
Then the bar is raised. We are not gonna compare him to young Jordan who at least got swept by a all time stacked Celtics team who won multiple titles, no he has to be compared to other best offensive season, prime Jordan, prime curry, etc.
Imo Clips jazz blazers are not contenders but pretenders. Non of them dispite "stars" and great record have been a threat in the playoffs so far

Also why are we talking about sweeps, there has been 176 sweeps in NBA playoff history. A sweep indicates your team was severely outmatched.

In NBA history, teams have blown 3-1 series leads only 13 times. Some current legends are part of that 13 (KD, Curry, Kawhi), while Jokic is on the side of forcing two teams to blow 3-1 leads, something much more rare than a sweep. Blowing a 3-1 lead indicates your team was superior, winning 3 games, and then just absolutely choking.

[5paceman]

Carmelo says hi

And the conversation closes the door on Carmelo's face. Sorry but Melo doesnt belong in this discussion.

Carmelo is not because of passing and results, but I will stand up for him.

His 3p game and shooting is as good or better than several guys mentioned here.

His midrange game is better than many, with footwork like Kobe.

His down low game is better than some guys mentioned actually banging down inside when he was younger.

If we were discussing outside/mid/down low scoring as most complete, he would be up there.

[Duke4life831]

Carmelo says hi

And the conversation closes the door on Carmelo's face. Sorry but Melo doesnt belong in this discussion.

Carmelo is not because of passing and results, but I will stand up for him.

His 3p game and shooting is as good or better than several guys mentioned here.

His midrange game is better than many, with footwork like Kobe.

His down low game is better than some guys mentioned actually banging down inside when he was younger.

If we were discussing outside/mid/down low scoring as most complete, he would be up there.

But if we take away play making. We then bring in a lot more other players into the discussion that are ahead of Melo that aren’t really being talked about either right now.

Prime Melo was a hell of a scorer. But I stand by what I said, when talking about who are some of the best offensive players of all time when talking about overall offensive skill set. Melo isn’t in the conversation.

[70sFan]

Well, the thread title is “most complete,” not “most impactful.”

Magic definitely immediately comes to mind when talking about the latter, but not necessarily the former.

Magic fits both criteria, he was the ultimate offensive force at his peak.

I suppose that when I think of being “most complete offensively,” then being an elite scorer is a prerequisite.

Magic is top 10 all time, and you could certainly say the most impactful offensive player, but a truly elite scorer?

I wouldn’t say that, and I don’t think I’m alone on that.

Magic certainly was elite scorer at his peak. He didn't focus on scoring as much as other offensive greats, that's why his volume is lower but in terms of scoring skillset, efficiency and resiliency he's up there with anyone. He could score on anyone and was literally unguardable once he developed a great jumper and post game.

[MarcusBrody]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is skills as a cutter and in transition.

Jordan and LeBron are notably better in those areas (though Jokic is a great outlet passer). Penetrator is another thing that has been mentioned but undersold. Jokic can get to the basket, but it's more of a close spin or ball move. He isn't elite in getting to the second level of defense and so forcing a scramble (though he does that other ways).

With all that in mind, I'd probably pick LeBron. To me, his prime was the most complete combo power/speed/vision/fine skill(shooting) elements, with Jokic and Jordan being a bit more to either side.

[ty 4191]

Lebron James.

Good pick. Though I don't think Lebron has the post game or shooting that Jokic has. Jokic's ability to spread the floor as a C is even more valuable because it opens the paint up for the rest of his team. He's like Dirk with an unstoppable post game and savant-level passing.

NBA History, Players who averaged 18pts/9 rbs/5 ast with .340 from three (min 1000 attempts) AND .850 from the FT line, CAREER:

Larry Bird
Nikola Jokic

THAT'S IT.

AND, Jokiic is a CENTER, at 6'11", 285.

Given his all around game, and historical stature, Nikola Jokic may actually be the most complete offensive player in NBA History.

And, what he's done the past 85 games is TRULY unique.

[Hobo4President]

Were the Jazz and Clippers bad teams in 2020? Both were favorites against the Nuggets, with the Clips being pretty big favorites. Then they lost to the eventual champs.

In 2021 they got swept by the eventual WC champs, with two starters missing. Not sure that's something that should be held against him...Jordan got swept, LeBron got swept, Kobe got swept, Duncan got swept, Shaq got swept (6x), most all time greats get swept at some point in their careers...is that supposed to be a knock on him?

It is with threads like is jokics season the best offensive ever. Or best advanced stats in history. Greatest offensive player? for last season and this season.
Then the bar is raised. We are not gonna compare him to young Jordan who at least got swept by a all time stacked Celtics team who won multiple titles, no he has to be compared to other best offensive season, prime Jordan, prime curry, etc.
Imo Clips jazz blazers are not contenders but pretenders. Non of them dispite "stars" and great record have been a threat in the playoffs so far

Also why are we talking about sweeps, there has been 176 sweeps in NBA playoff history. A sweep indicates your team was severely outmatched.

In NBA history, teams have blown 3-1 series leads only 13 times. Some current legends are part of that 13 (KD, Curry, Kawhi), while Jokic is on the side of forcing two teams to blow 3-1 leads, something much more rare than a sweep. Blowing a 3-1 lead indicates your team was superior, winning 3 games, and then just absolutely choking.

It's because the guy literally doesn't care about the truth, only the narrative, he's arguing in bad faith.

[art_tatum]

It is with threads like is jokics season the best offensive ever. Or best advanced stats in history. Greatest offensive player? for last season and this season.
Then the bar is raised. We are not gonna compare him to young Jordan who at least got swept by a all time stacked Celtics team who won multiple titles, no he has to be compared to other best offensive season, prime Jordan, prime curry, etc.
Imo Clips jazz blazers are not contenders but pretenders. Non of them dispite "stars" and great record have been a threat in the playoffs so far

Also why are we talking about sweeps, there has been 176 sweeps in NBA playoff history. A sweep indicates your team was severely outmatched.

In NBA history, teams have blown 3-1 series leads only 13 times. Some current legends are part of that 13 (KD, Curry, Kawhi), while Jokic is on the side of forcing two teams to blow 3-1 leads, something much more rare than a sweep. Blowing a 3-1 lead indicates your team was superior, winning 3 games, and then just absolutely choking.

It's because the guy literally doesn't care about the truth, only the narrative, he's arguing in bad faith.

im arguing in bad faith bc i dont believe joker is "most complete offensive player ever" just based on advanced stats?
hes the MVP last year supposed to be the best player on either team. barely survived dame. swept by old cp3 and who? ayton who cant even get the max? booker? are they that much better than the nuggets and joker?

also lets not act like the heatles sweeping monta ellis and the bucks are the same as the suns sweeping the nuggets.

[Cubbies2120]

Also why are we talking about sweeps, there has been 176 sweeps in NBA playoff history. A sweep indicates your team was severely outmatched.

In NBA history, teams have blown 3-1 series leads only 13 times. Some current legends are part of that 13 (KD, Curry, Kawhi), while Jokic is on the side of forcing two teams to blow 3-1 leads, something much more rare than a sweep. Blowing a 3-1 lead indicates your team was superior, winning 3 games, and then just absolutely choking.

It's because the guy literally doesn't care about the truth, only the narrative, he's arguing in bad faith.

im arguing in bad faith bc i dont believe joker is "most complete offensive player ever" just based on advanced stats?
hes the MVP last year supposed to be the best player on either team. barely survived dame. swept by old cp3 and who? ayton who cant even get the max? booker? are they that much better than the nuggets and joker?

also lets not act like the heatles sweeping monta ellis and the bucks are the same as the suns sweeping the nuggets.

No, you're arguing in bad faith by looking at the end result and not the circumstances.

Jokic was missing his max-contract sidekick as well as another starter. It would be like me saying "KD got owned by Giannis last year in the playoffs", while neglecting that there were some pretty key players missing...

Also, Ayton will absolutely get the max, if not from the Suns, another team.

[art_tatum]

It's because the guy literally doesn't care about the truth, only the narrative, he's arguing in bad faith.

im arguing in bad faith bc i dont believe joker is "most complete offensive player ever" just based on advanced stats?
hes the MVP last year supposed to be the best player on either team. barely survived dame. swept by old cp3 and who? ayton who cant even get the max? booker? are they that much better than the nuggets and joker?

also lets not act like the heatles sweeping monta ellis and the bucks are the same as the suns sweeping the nuggets.

No, you're arguing in bad faith by looking at the end result and not the circumstances.

Jokic was missing his max-contract sidekick as well as another starter. It would be like me saying "KD got owned by Giannis last year in the playoffs", while neglecting that there were some pretty key players missing...

Also, Ayton will absolutely get the max, if not from the Suns, another team.

Yea good point, KD lost to the bucks in game 7 OT while kyrie was out and injured harden a net negative for the advanced stats people.

Meanwhile the nuggets got swept and it wasn't really close to a lesser team than the bucks.

No way would i take jokic over KD curry or LeBron (2020 and earlier). Let alone historically great players like MJ or bird. And that's what this thread is about. I'm not saying jokic is bad. He's a MVP level player. But these threads are hyperbole and crazy just cause of his high PER

[Mickey8]

Durant was playing with another former MVP James Harden, you jackass. Harden still draws lots of attention from the opposition .

[kenwood3333]

T-mac comes to mind

[TravisScott55]

Lebron James.

Good pick. Though I don't think Lebron has the post game or shooting that Jokic has. Jokic's ability to spread the floor as a C is even more valuable because it opens the paint up for the rest of his team. He's like Dirk with an unstoppable post game and savant-level passing.

NBA History, Players who averaged 18pts/9 rbs/5 ast with .340 from three (min 1000 attempts) AND .850 from the FT line, CAREER:

Larry Bird
Nikola Jokic

THAT'S IT.

AND, Jokiic is a CENTER, at 6'11", 285.

Given his all around game, and historical stature, Nikola Jokic may actually be the most complete offensive player in NBA History.

And, what he's done the past 85 games is TRULY unique.

Lmao that's such a cherry picked stat

[Cubbies2120]

im arguing in bad faith bc i dont believe joker is "most complete offensive player ever" just based on advanced stats?
hes the MVP last year supposed to be the best player on either team. barely survived dame. swept by old cp3 and who? ayton who cant even get the max? booker? are they that much better than the nuggets and joker?

also lets not act like the heatles sweeping monta ellis and the bucks are the same as the suns sweeping the nuggets.

No, you're arguing in bad faith by looking at the end result and not the circumstances.

Jokic was missing his max-contract sidekick as well as another starter. It would be like me saying "KD got owned by Giannis last year in the playoffs", while neglecting that there were some pretty key players missing...

Also, Ayton will absolutely get the max, if not from the Suns, another team.

Yea good point, KD lost to the bucks in game 7 OT while kyrie was out and injured harden a net negative for the advanced stats people.

Meanwhile the nuggets got swept and it wasn't really close to a lesser team than the bucks.

No way would i take jokic over KD curry or LeBron (2020 and earlier). Let alone historically great players like MJ or bird. And that's what this thread is about. I'm not saying jokic is bad. He's a MVP level player. But these threads are hyperbole and crazy just cause of his high PER

"High PER" is selling it quite short.

Highest PER by 3.5 points. The difference between him and 2nd is bigger than the difference between 2nd and 60th all time.

Also, not just highest PER, but league leading: VORP, Defensive rating (yes, you read that correctly), VORP, BPM, etc.

[Harry Garris]

Hes up there for sure. KD usually gets that nod though.

And I've never understood why. KD is without a doubt one of the two or three greatest individual scorers of all time. He can hit any shot from anywhere on the floor with anyone guarding him. But I've never thought of him as some amazing passer or orchestrator of the offense.

A complete offensive player would have to be a guy who can not only get his but can also set up others at an elite level and is an offensive system all by himself. That's Jokic in a nutshell.

[bbalnation]

Kyrie Irving. Kobe Bryant. Lebron James (raptor fan here, don't tell me he's not skilled after 2272927277 midrange fadeaways in a row). Steve Nash. Steph Curry. Jokic is up there.

KD when he wants to be a facilitator, can be.