Coby White discussion thread

[GoBlue72391]

I know we want to win SO BADLY. That said, I suggest folks stop pinning their championship hopes to Coby becoming an above average 6th man this season. I think our chances are better with Matt Thomas becoming useful, or better yet, Ayo developing into a better offensive player by season-end.

Oh come on, that is ridiculous.

OK, maybe Matt becoming useful is a reach, but I'm 50/50 right now that if put in the same role for the rest of the season that Ayo would both average more points and shoot a higher % from 3 than Coby (and have a materially better +/-). Hot take? Absolutely, but that's what we do here.

I'm still advocating giving Coby 10 games to earn his way back into the rotation.

I don't think Thomas becoming a useful player is a reach. Between both him and Coby at their best Coby is definitely the better player, but Coby is not at his best right now and there's always a role for a shooter like Thomas, even if it's a limited one.

As for Ayo, I definitely wouldn't be surprised if he winds up better than Coby. Or PWill for that matter. He'll never be a star, but he has that it-factor where you can just tell he understands the game and will be a contributor for a long time.

[GoBlue72391]

OK, maybe Matt becoming useful is a reach, but I'm 50/50 right now that if put in the same role for the rest of the season that Ayo would both average more points and shoot a higher % from 3 than Coby (and have a materially better +/-). Hot take? Absolutely, but that's what we do here.

I'm still advocating giving Coby 10 games to earn his way back into the rotation.

I'm not sure that's much of a hot take to be honest. Ayo is clearly a way better defender. He's similarly aged just with more college experience instead of NBA experience. He's shooting over 40% from three so far, which is more than Coby's career average (or either of his season averages).

Ayo's got problems (like getting blocked constantly and turning the ball over way too much and generally needs to ramp up his decision making) but he's been a much better defender and a good shooter so far.

Based on what we've seen to date, there's no real reason for me to think Ayo can't be better than Coby. The opposite is clearly true too, but it's not an out of bounds discussion at this point. Take into account that Coby just looks way off right now and probably like he's pressing to come back too early, and I think the idea that Ayo may outperform Coby is probably more likely than not.

One problem. Ayo has not been a good shooter. Over his last 7 games he his shooting 33% from 3 on just 2.1 attempts. Everyone is pinning there hops on a few good stretches. Lately he has been bad. He thinks he can do more then he can. Sure he is just a rookie but also a 22 year old rookie. I would take Coby scoring over Ayo's defense. Before the season i think the consensus was we might need his defense in a backup role but the way this team is now. Coby's offense is way more valuable.

The thing with Ayo is, even when his shot isn't falling he does other things that contribute to winning basketball. He defends at a high level for a rookie, he always plays with maximum effort, and he's just a heady, smart player. That's in stark contrast to someone like Coby, who when his shot isn't falling he's really not bringing much to the table.

[GoBlue72391]

One problem. Ayo has not been a good shooter. Over his last 7 games he his shooting 33% from 3 on just 2.1 attempts. Everyone is pinning there hops on a few good stretches. Lately he has been bad. He thinks he can do more then he can. Sure he is just a rookie but also a 22 year old rookie. I would take Coby scoring over Ayo's defense. Before the season i think the consensus was we might need his defense in a backup role but the way this team is now. Coby's offense is way more valuable.

If Coby were fully healthy and hadn't been interrupted by a major surgery and worked all off-season on his game, then I think that would likely be true. However, I think you are taking a theoretical Coby's offense over an actual Ayo's defense.

We can and should give Coby time to find his legs, but I think he will be worse than last season overall at the end of the year, and last season wasn't anything particularly special.

Even a 75% Coby on offense is better then whatever defense Ayo gives the Bulls. Coby last season was being groomed to be the starting PG. I thought overall he did an okay job. Others disagreed. Now he is being asked to play an entirely new role on a team that has been playing really well to start the season. Not easy to just come into a produce between that and the injury. When Vuc is back you are now looking at probably around 30 ppg between the two, with Coby giving consistency to the up and down scoring from most of the bench.

That's just false. Maybe that would be true if Ayo was a Dunn-like all defense/no offense player, but that's not the case. Coby at his best would be better than Ayo this season, but he's not at his best and may not reach his best this season. As for the future, I could see either one realistically being better than the other. I like Ayo's long-term potential better than Coby's at this point, but I wouldn't blame someone for preferring Coby's upside.

[GoBlue72391]

People are way too quick to give up on Coby. The dude put up 15 5 and 4 last season on decent efficiency at 20.

It's all about expectations. If you think Coby is some kind of ultra athletic 6'5" PG worthy of being drafted 7th you'll be disappointed.

If you think of him as a streaky combo guard offensive spark plug off the bench, well he's got a good chance to be one of the best in the game in that role, IMO. That's valuable, especially for a team that lacks bench scorers.

Also, he's played 21 minutes this season coming off an injury with a new squad. Patience.

I don't think anyone is giving up on him. I'm sure not. It's just that he looks so far away from being able to contribute, that maybe we should have let him get his legs during practice a while longer and the G League before trotting him out there in close games that we're trying to win.

If he can be that 6th man instant offense bench scorer then he absolutely has a role on this team, we just can't really afford to give him minutes in order to get back up to speed when it's hurting the team.

[dougthonus]

Even a 75% Coby on offense is better then whatever defense Ayo gives the Bulls. Coby last season was being groomed to be the starting PG. I thought overall he did an okay job. Others disagreed. Now he is being asked to play an entirely new role on a team that has been playing really well to start the season. Not easy to just come into a produce between that and the injury. When Vuc is back you are now looking at probably around 30 ppg between the two, with Coby giving consistency to the up and down scoring from most of the bench.

He's being asked to play a slimmed down simplified version of his old role. He has to shoot catch and shoot 3s and move the ball effectively. I wouldn't think what he is asked to do is anything particularly new or difficult for him. He will need to find his niche of course. I think with the injury it will take him a log time to shake off rust though. He was still developing even back then, not a finished product.

[infinity]

Calling a few iso's or catch and shoot for Coby would not hurt either. Try to get him in some good situations to get a couple easy baskets could do wonders for his confidence as he rounds into form.

[superdave]

https://www.theanalyst.com/na/2021/09/why-coby-white-could-shine-in-his-new-role-with-the-chicago-bulls/

TL;DR Coby has shot 36.6% on catch and shoot 3’s in his career. Due to his defensive limitations, if he doesn’t shoot it closer to 40% on catch and shoot, he’s shouldn’t be getting much burn this season

[CaPiTanAK]

10 mins per game until he learns to be a winning bball player.

If he doesn’t figure it out in a few months, he can go somewhere else. I hope that he figures it out on the Xhicago Bulls.

[bullsnewdynasty]

People are way too quick to give up on Coby. The dude put up 15 5 and 4 last season on decent efficiency at 20.

It's all about expectations. If you think Coby is some kind of ultra athletic 6'5" PG worthy of being drafted 7th you'll be disappointed.

If you think of him as a streaky combo guard offensive spark plug off the bench, well he's got a good chance to be one of the best in the game in that role, IMO. That's valuable, especially for a team that lacks bench scorers.

Also, he's played 21 minutes this season coming off an injury with a new squad. Patience.

If anyone thinks he's good because he put up 15/4/4 raw stats without taking into account any of his MASSIVE net negative attributes, he should be dealt ASAP while he still has that perceived value.

Coby is Brandon Knight. Someone once gave Brandon Knight a $70 mil deal because they thought he was valuable. He's a dime a dozen scoring guard. Barely better than an Antonio Blakeney type.

[logical_art]

People are way too quick to give up on Coby. The dude put up 15 5 and 4 last season on decent efficiency at 20.

It's all about expectations. If you think Coby is some kind of ultra athletic 6'5" PG worthy of being drafted 7th you'll be disappointed.

If you think of him as a streaky combo guard offensive spark plug off the bench, well he's got a good chance to be one of the best in the game in that role, IMO. That's valuable, especially for a team that lacks bench scorers.

Also, he's played 21 minutes this season coming off an injury with a new squad. Patience.

If anyone thinks he's good because he put up 15/4/4 raw stats without taking into account any of his MASSIVE net negative attributes, he should be dealt ASAP while he still has that perceived value.

Coby is Brandon Knight. Someone once gave Brandon Knight a $70 mil deal because they thought he was valuable. He's a dime a dozen scoring guard. Barely better than an Antonio Blakeney type.

Right. He was tried out as a pure PG where he's woefully out of place. He also played a ton vs first units. The history of the league is littered with with combo guards who would be a net liability as a starter but add value as bench scorers. I see no reason why Coby can't be one of them.

[fleet]

he sticks out like a sore thumb in this defense. Sure doesn't look like a fit.

[TeamMan]

Haven't really followed this thread that closely, because I was always mindful that he's returning from an injury that could (probably has) effect his shooting.

But I remember the Coby that came to the Bulls as a rookie, and there were certain skills that talent scouts were emphasizing...

Positives:

- Very fast with the ball in his hands, probably the fastest of all the guards in his class.

- Great step-back shooter. Able to get the ball off while being guarded.

- One of the best catch-and-shoot players in his draft with excellent range and a quick release.

- Able to put the ball on the floor and make it to rim, but his lack of athleticism sometimes results in his shot getting blocked.

- Better than average BB IQ with quick hands (picks up unexpected steals) and feet on defense, and is also good at close-outs and help defense. His BB IQ also helps him to be in position to get easy rebound, and he's cable to getting 10 or more rebounds in a game.

Negatives:

- Questionable handle and his college coach wanted him to push the ball flat out all the time (possibly to avoid exposing him to defendrs picking his pocket).

- Doesn't have great length or athleticism (so his speed, and quick hands & feet have to make up for it).

=============================

Conclusion:

IMO Coby is best when he has the ball in his hands, either pushing the pace or going 1-on-1 to get off his shot.

If a defender overplays him, he can make it to the rim but isn't the best at finishing.

And so far, the main difference that I see is that he's struggling because he doesn't have the ball in his hands as much as he used to.

The 2nd thing is that his shot looks to have been affected by the injury. Either it's because he wasn't able to work out over the summer to keep himself sharp, or the shoulder is affecting his release even though it's his left shoulder.

--------------------------------
Some of the great players in NBA history have put up 1000 shots a day in their personal workouts.

I don't know what Coby is doing, but if he's going to get a lot of PT it'll be because of his shooting. So, maybe that's what he should be doing (putting up 1000 shots a day).

[coldfish]

IMO, he is so out of game shape he shouldn't be out there. He should do a rehab stint with Windy City just to play a lot of minutes and get a lot of shots. No reason to throw the real Bulls under the bus just to get a guy who clearly isn't ready some opportunities.

Once he has played himself into shape, then you talk about fit.

His defense really sticks out

Watch on YouTube

[FriedRise]

This is his training camp. He’s not even in preseason mode yet. It’ll take some time until he can match everyone’s speed.

[sco]

Optimistically, Billy is using the next few games to give Coby a sense of how things work with this team, and THEN we can send him to the WCB's to focus on the parts of his game that he needs to work on. He can stay down there as long as it takes. His confidence isn't there right now and neither is his aggression.

[Ice Man]

Boy does he look lost. I agree, give him a few Windy City games to get used to playing, scoring, and doing good things on the court. Because right now he looks like a guy who will be in China when his rookie contract expires.

[ChettheJet]

Fair weather fans

How's he doing after not having any summer league, no training camp, maybe a week of practices after an off season of not being able to use his arm? Add to that right now there's one player on the roster that he shared the floor with last season. Yeah why isn't he contributing?

But here's the beauty of being shortsighted. The people who want to run him down, are the same ones who think the Bulls should be able to trade him and a couple bench pieces for a high quality starting PF because there's some team out there who sees nothing but potential in Coby.

[sco]

Fair weather fans

How's he doing after not having any summer league, no training camp, maybe a week of practices after an off season of not being able to use his arm? Add to that right now there's one player on the roster that he shared the floor with last season. Yeah why isn't he contributing?

But here's the beauty of being shortsighted. The people who want to run him down, are the same ones who think the Bulls should be able to trade him and a couple bench pieces for a high quality starting PF because there's some team out there who sees nothing but potential in Coby.

I'm highly skeptical that we're able to get much for Coby unless or until he shows he is back to what he was, and then, why would we trade him?

[dougthonus]

If anyone thinks he's good because he put up 15/4/4 raw stats without taking into account any of his MASSIVE net negative attributes, he should be dealt ASAP while he still has that perceived value.

Coby is Brandon Knight. Someone once gave Brandon Knight a $70 mil deal because they thought he was valuable. He's a dime a dozen scoring guard. Barely better than an Antonio Blakeney type.

That's the thing, they aren't a dime a dozen, based on guys like Brandon Knight getting 70M. They may not be impactful, and people may overvalue them, so they are actually poor investments, but they definitely aren't "cheap".

[dougthonus]

Fair weather fans

How's he doing after not having any summer league, no training camp, maybe a week of practices after an off season of not being able to use his arm? Add to that right now there's one player on the roster that he shared the floor with last season. Yeah why isn't he contributing?

But here's the beauty of being shortsighted. The people who want to run him down, are the same ones who think the Bulls should be able to trade him and a couple bench pieces for a high quality starting PF because there's some team out there who sees nothing but potential in Coby.

I mean lots of people didn't like Coby White prior to this year. I don't think you should accuse anyone who is skeptical of him of being fair weather.

I would trade Coby + Pat + TBj (salary filler) + Portland pick for Harrison Barnes, Jerami Grant, Christian Wood, or Pascal Siakam if the other team would take take it. I'm not sure it's enough for any of those teams would do that trade though and Coby coming out like hot garbage through three games probably makes it less likely rather than more. If Coby has turned it around by the trade deadline then there may be a chance there.

Otherwise, if you're getting a lesser player than one of those guys, I'm just riding with what we have and hoping they develop. Getting someone of lower caliber doesn't really do much for us, but I think we're close enough to do a consolidate assets trade if one exists.