Coby White discussion thread

[Bulls2021]

Fair weather fans

How's he doing after not having any summer league, no training camp, maybe a week of practices after an off season of not being able to use his arm? Add to that right now there's one player on the roster that he shared the floor with last season. Yeah why isn't he contributing?

But here's the beauty of being shortsighted. The people who want to run him down, are the same ones who think the Bulls should be able to trade him and a couple bench pieces for a high quality starting PF because there's some team out there who sees nothing but potential in Coby.

I mean lots of people didn't like Coby White prior to this year. I don't think you should accuse anyone who is skeptical of him of being fair weather.

I would trade Coby + Pat + TBj (salary filler) + Portland pick for Harrison Barnes, Jerami Grant, Christian Wood, or Pascal Siakam if the other team would take take it. I'm not sure it's enough for any of those teams would do that trade though and Coby coming out like hot garbage through three games probably makes it less likely rather than more. If Coby has turned it around by the trade deadline then there may be a chance there.

Otherwise, if you're getting a lesser player than one of those guys, I'm just riding with what we have and hoping they develop. Getting someone of lower caliber doesn't really do much for us, but I think we're close enough to do a consolidate assets trade if one exists.

Man, PWill getting hurt is such a bummer. I was pretty sure they'd trade him this year if they became contenders. Harrison Barnes is such a good fit on this team... I'm drooling thinking about it. The guy makes the Bulls instant favorites IMO. Siakam would cost more IMO. Any of those guys would be perfect, honestly.

[dougthonus]

Man, PWill getting hurt is such a bummer. I was pretty sure they'd trade him this year if they became contenders. Harrison Barnes is such a good fit on this team... I'm drooling thinking about it. The guy makes the Bulls instant favorites IMO. Siakam would cost more IMO. Any of those guys would be perfect, honestly.

Yeah, this isn't a killer offer by any means, but it's what the Bulls can functionally give up, so this is what it is kinda thing.

It might be enough for one of those teams depending on the direction and where they are at and quite simply whether some team is willing to do more or not. Grant, Barnes, and Wood are all UFAs after next year, and all of those teams probably aren't looking to build around them as core pieces for anything in the future and will likely get less trading them later rather than now.

If those teams are looking at a longer rebuild then two prospects and a pick is decently intriguing. It's really just whether or not they can find better prospects or picks. Houston and Detroit should probably be pretty motivated to trade Wood/Grant based on their situations. Good chance the Kings have given up by the deadline and feel similarly about Barnes. Toronto is the least likely of that group to trade with IMO.

[TheJordanRule]

Fair weather fans

How's he doing after not having any summer league, no training camp, maybe a week of practices after an off season of not being able to use his arm? Add to that right now there's one player on the roster that he shared the floor with last season. Yeah why isn't he contributing?

But here's the beauty of being shortsighted. The people who want to run him down, are the same ones who think the Bulls should be able to trade him and a couple bench pieces for a high quality starting PF because there's some team out there who sees nothing but potential in Coby.

Bro, Coby has tons of potential. We want to deal him not because Coby sucks, but because we have greater team needs than a microwave scorer, which is what his biggest, best possible role would be for the next 3 years minimum. Coby is still very young. Coby could become what Zach is in a few years if he keeps working on it, as long as Coby is given the role and minutes of a starter. The problem is that there are no entitlement minutes left here. Not as a starter, but maybe not even as a 25 mpg bench player. We've become a win-now team, and for a team that's trying to win now, Ayo and Caruso are much better fits. Ayo and Caruso complement our offense centric superstars, because Ayo and Caruso are not ball dominant, play intense defense, and score efficiently- with an emphasis on efficiently. I'm not saying those guys are better than Coby, but that they fit our needs a lot more. Coby is right there as an equal off the bench, but he'll have to fight guys who are currently outperforming him and if Coby doesn't turn things around, he may be lucky to get 15 minutes per game. On the other hand, we need a starting big because we have no options to escape our small ball lineup. It's small ball or bust right now. We will get exploited in the playoffs, even if Vuce comes back, if this continues. We need someone who can erase the shots that Vuce can't and score in the post. Someone like that would push us towards championship contention more than Coby, at his current stage of development, ever could. The team we trade Coby to will be getting a premium NBA prospect. Be that as it may, we can't afford to develop Coby at the cost of improving our win-now team.

[TheHrvReport]

Anyone catch Cobys brother and Joe Cowley going at it on Twitter last night ? The brother ended up deleting his tweets

[Bulls2021]

Man, PWill getting hurt is such a bummer. I was pretty sure they'd trade him this year if they became contenders. Harrison Barnes is such a good fit on this team... I'm drooling thinking about it. The guy makes the Bulls instant favorites IMO. Siakam would cost more IMO. Any of those guys would be perfect, honestly.

Yeah, this isn't a killer offer by any means, but it's what the Bulls can functionally give up, so this is what it is kinda thing.

It might be enough for one of those teams depending on the direction and where they are at and quite simply whether some team is willing to do more or not. Grant, Barnes, and Wood are all UFAs after next year, and all of those teams probably aren't looking to build around them as core pieces for anything in the future and will likely get less trading them later rather than now.

If those teams are looking at a longer rebuild then two prospects and a pick is decently intriguing. It's really just whether or not they can find better prospects or picks. Houston and Detroit should probably be pretty motivated to trade Wood/Grant based on their situations. Good chance the Kings have given up by the deadline and feel similarly about Barnes. Toronto is the least likely of that group to trade with IMO.

Those contracts would come off at the perfect time, too. Same year Vuc cones off the book. You have 2 years of being a legitimate contender (this year and next year), then you have space to sign another max guy (Jokic) in 2023.

[HoopsterJones]

We all know Coby needs to work himself back into shape to play in a NBA game. The sample size is very small (32 minutes) but the advanced stats are some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

-11.8 PER
9.1 TS%
-15.5 OBPM
-5.9 DBPM
-21.4 BPM

Obviously once he’s shaken off the rust those numbers will definitely go back up. I do not want it to cost us games though.

[Ice Man]

We all know Coby needs to work himself back into shape to play in a NBA game. The sample size is very small (32 minutes) but the advanced stats are some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

-11.8 PER
9.1 TS%
-15.5 OBPM
-5.9 DBPM
-21.4 BPM

He looks every bit as bad as those stats suggest. I've rarely seen NBA players look so lost. When 41 year old Udonis Haslem got garbage minutes earlier this week, he looked better than Coby has.

He will sort it out. But man, he's struggling right now.

[coldfish]

We all know Coby needs to work himself back into shape to play in a NBA game. The sample size is very small (32 minutes) but the advanced stats are some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

-11.8 PER
9.1 TS%
-15.5 OBPM
-5.9 DBPM
-21.4 BPM

Obviously once he’s shaken off the rust those numbers will definitely go back up. I do not want it to cost us games though.

I first read that as bullet points. I'm like "11.8, that's not terrible. No way he has an 11.8PER. . . . oh, wait MINUS 11.8."

Side note: You didn't do net rating . . . -40.6

He single handedly made last night a contest.

[MrSparkle]

Welp, still think you play him in small doses. Until we lose a game, I don’t see the problem.

He’s taken and missed five 3Ps. It’s nonsensical calculating his percentages at this point. He could virtually move to 1st place in 3P% with one hot game.

He’s indeed looked terrible. But tripping about 10 mpg?

I will say, I loftily had hoped for more Jamal Murray, but now especially with his injury setbacks and seeing his state of conditioning and continued poor awareness, he’s reminding me a lot of 3rd year Cam Payne.

Coby has an interesting package of skills and attributes, like Cam did, but it’ll be a long time before he puts it all together. And if the predicted payoff is a 15 PER backup guard in his prime, then ya have to trade dude now for best return ala Fultz. That injury clearly put him back (like Pat).

But hey remember when all our hopes lied in 20yo GarPax 1st picks (Lauri, Wendell) or trade targets (Dunn), and then they’d get season ending injuries just about every year and we had to watch their G-League reserves (Arci, Shaq, Kornet, Felicio if lucky) play instead? Or some hopeless overwhelmed vets like Sato and Thad?

Boy I don’t know what it is, maybe it’s because they play smarter, but it sure is nice to have higher IQ vets who play less like chickens with no heads.. not to mention way more athletic/hangtime.

Really nice that Ayo is like the guard version of a late draft Taj. There’s a mystery to it all since there are so many draft misses - certain rookies look so comfortable in the NBA, and others look vastly overwhelmed despite more talent. 3 years in, i realize he’s rusty and out of shape, but Coby clearly lacks IQ for the game. Basic spacing concepts. If you are gonna have a streaky chucker, I’d rather just pursue a Will Barton.

I am leaning towards trying to get a Tyrus/Charlotte pick out of Coby. Not gonna happen if he gets DNP’d with negative ratings in 3 games though.

[dougthonus]

We all know Coby needs to work himself back into shape to play in a NBA game. The sample size is very small (32 minutes) but the advanced stats are some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

-11.8 PER
9.1 TS%
-15.5 OBPM
-5.9 DBPM
-21.4 BPM

Obviously once he’s shaken off the rust those numbers will definitely go back up. I do not want it to cost us games though.

I first read that as bullet points. I'm like "11.8, that's not terrible. No way he has an 11.8PER. . . . oh, wait MINUS 11.8."

Side note: You didn't do net rating . . . -40.6

He single handedly made last night a contest.

This might be true of many of these stats, but earlier I checked PER when I saw how shockingly bad it was.

If he didn't play another minute, -11.8 would be the worst PER in the history of the league for someone playing over 30 minutes.

That said, of course it won't stay there. Even one bad game where he shot 3/8 would improve his PER considerably.

[dice]

Fair weather fans

How's he doing after not having any summer league, no training camp, maybe a week of practices after an off season of not being able to use his arm? Add to that right now there's one player on the roster that he shared the floor with last season. Yeah why isn't he contributing?

But here's the beauty of being shortsighted. The people who want to run him down, are the same ones who think the Bulls should be able to trade him and a couple bench pieces for a high quality starting PF because there's some team out there who sees nothing but potential in Coby.

Bro, Coby has tons of potential. We want to deal him not because Coby sucks, but because we have greater team needs than a microwave scorer, which is what his biggest, best possible role would be for the next 3 years minimum. Coby is still very young. Coby could become what Zach is in a few years if he keeps working on it, as long as Coby is given the role and minutes of a starter. The problem is that there are no entitlement minutes left here. Not as a starter, but maybe not even as a 25 mpg bench player. We've become a win-now team, and for a team that's trying to win now, Ayo and Caruso are much better fits. Ayo and Caruso complement our offense centric superstars, because Ayo and Caruso are not ball dominant, play intense defense, and score efficiently- with an emphasis on efficiently. I'm not saying those guys are better than Coby, but that they fit our needs a lot more. Coby is right there as an equal off the bench, but he'll have to fight guys who are currently outperforming him and if Coby doesn't turn things around, he may be lucky to get 15 minutes per game. On the other hand, we need a starting big because we have no options to escape our small ball lineup. It's small ball or bust right now. We will get exploited in the playoffs, even if Vuce comes back, if this continues. We need someone who can erase the shots that Vuce can't and score in the post. Someone like that would push us towards championship contention more than Coby, at his current stage of development, ever could. The team we trade Coby to will be getting a premium NBA prospect. Be that as it may, we can't afford to develop Coby at the cost of improving our win-now team.

no, no they wouldn't. where do you think coby white would go in the 2022 draft? i can assure you it wouldn't be close to where he was drafted. even if they redrafted the 2019 draft he might drop out of the lottery. and that's with the knowledge that no more than 25 players per draft "make it" long-term in the league, let alone become long-term starters, let alone become stars. coby has shown the capability to perhaps BECOME a good scorer. and that is all

that's not to say that he won't be in the league for a long time. maybe he will. but the chances of him becoming a long-term starter are low and a quasi-star slim and none

[DuckIII]

We all know Coby needs to work himself back into shape to play in a NBA game. The sample size is very small (32 minutes) but the advanced stats are some of the worst I’ve ever seen.

-11.8 PER
9.1 TS%
-15.5 OBPM
-5.9 DBPM
-21.4 BPM

Obviously once he’s shaken off the rust those numbers will definitely go back up. I do not want it to cost us games though.

It’s not complicated. Players who suck that bad should never, ever play in any game for a team fighting for playoff seeding. Unless the outcome of the game is already decided.

It’s that simple.

Coby won’t stay this bad. He’ll get better by practicing and slowly, gradually resuming game play in logical scenarios. Within a few weeks of doing that, and still well in advance of the trade deadline if that’s your target, he’ll likely be fine and valuable and helping us win.

[TheFinishSniper]

It's difficult to see guys like Coby White and Patrick Williams in Bulls uniform. Imagine timeline where this are guys you count on and we didnt have offseason we had. I mean at that point maybe burning franchise to the ground would be best solution and call it a done deal.

[DuckIII]

Welp, still think you play him in small doses. Until we lose a game, I don’t see the problem.

You mean like the Portland game that already happened?

If his negative impact had been completely meaningless all 3 games I don’t think anyone would care all that much. But we lost one and almost lost another.

Him playing right now matters. In a bad way.

[MrSparkle]

It's difficult to see guys like Coby White and Patrick Williams in Bulls uniform. Imagine timeline where this are guys you count on and we didnt have offseason we had. I mean at that point maybe burning franchise to the ground would be best solution and call it a done deal.

Well, and they are examples why tanking and praying for lotto saviors is time-consuming, high-risk and foolish. We’re into the 2nd decade of really, really deep analytics with draft scouting and data, and the draft is still a big mystery box.

And sure it’s nice to grab a Luka or Morant franchise savior, but as those teams are demonstrating, it’s not that easy to build a contender even with that magical superstar. Hawks loaded a lot of assets and are currently floundering, Suns have a window dictated by their 36yo PG, not their farm of young talent.

So yeah. Part of the reason I was done with GarPax a long time ago was because they seemed to like over-relying on their draft picks. “Oh backup PG is taken care of- we got this Marquis Teague clone of Jeff coming in.” Or “Yeah we’ve got the perfect Deng replacement; his name is Tony Snell. Just like Jimmy, give him a year and he’ll be our glue guy.” Or better yet, “We just picked up the better younger version of Dunleavy. Wait till you see this Doug guy light up the high post!”

Each scenario, a playoff Bulls team was equipped with rookies at crucial positions with no proven veteran backups. Post-ACL Rose needed starting PG relief; our wing depth was terrible from the time Deng/Bogans/Brewer/Rip left up until this season basically (unless we count Holiday/Nwaba/etc.).

I was just ready for a FO more like Ainge, Riley, Ujiri, where they clearly don’t count on their top picks to change the direction of their franchise. Pick well, but don’t expect to address your starting 5 with FRPs.

Moving Coby and Pat from “crucial starters” and building blocks to basically zero-pressure developmental roles was the best thing I could’ve asked for (not to mention just dumping Lauri and Wendell).

[Kurt Heimlich]

It's been obvious he has no place since this off season and ayos emergence has only further sealed cobys fate. Obviously he has next to no trade value at the moment unless some gm is neglectfully unaware. But I dont get why they didnt send him to the G league to work out this horrific rust in relative obscurity? Not only is he hurting a contending team on a nightly basis but hes burnt any residual trade value in lightning quick fashion and is potentially further crushing his confidence after a bad season and even more brutal offseason.

[coldfish]

Relevant here: Ayo is shooting 43% on 3p on 4.3 attempts per 36.

Coby White is at 35% for his career on 7.8 per 36.

No one in their right mind would just turn the offense over to Ayo for extended periods of time every game. That said, if you did he would likely have a handful of big nights.

I really have to wonder how Coby works ahead of Ayo in the rotation. Ayo is worlds better on defense.

[Wingy]

Man, PWill getting hurt is such a bummer. I was pretty sure they'd trade him this year if they became contenders. Harrison Barnes is such a good fit on this team... I'm drooling thinking about it. The guy makes the Bulls instant favorites IMO. Siakam would cost more IMO. Any of those guys would be perfect, honestly.

Yeah, this isn't a killer offer by any means, but it's what the Bulls can functionally give up, so this is what it is kinda thing.

It might be enough for one of those teams depending on the direction and where they are at and quite simply whether some team is willing to do more or not. Grant, Barnes, and Wood are all UFAs after next year, and all of those teams probably aren't looking to build around them as core pieces for anything in the future and will likely get less trading them later rather than now.

If those teams are looking at a longer rebuild then two prospects and a pick is decently intriguing. It's really just whether or not they can find better prospects or picks. Houston and Detroit should probably be pretty motivated to trade Wood/Grant based on their situations. Good chance the Kings have given up by the deadline and feel similarly about Barnes. Toronto is the least likely of that group to trade with IMO.

I generally agree w/your overall assessment here, and I guess my answer is risking that they eventually lose them for nothing, but seems like Wood/Grant could easily resign when the time comes - and Hou/Det both planning on that. Comfort level & money talks, and these bad teams will have money to burn even if they are overpaying. We've proven sucking with a roster full of young guys doesn't do a whole lot, nor does it improve your FA hopes, so I don't see how Hou/Det can improve their prospects by completely bottoming out for the not so high upside of our guys. Heck, they are bottomed out even with Wood/Grant, so they might actually be worse off trading for our pieces.

[dougthonus]

I generally agree w/your overall assessment here, and I guess my answer is risking that they eventually lose them for nothing, but seems like Wood/Grant could easily resign when the time comes - and Hou/Det both planning on that. Comfort level & money talks, and these bad teams will have money to burn even if they are overpaying. We've proven sucking with a roster full of young guys doesn't do a whole lot, nor does it improve your FA hopes, so I don't see how Hou/Det can improve their prospects by completely bottoming out for the not so high upside of our guys. Heck, they are bottomed out even with Wood/Grant, so they might actually be worse off trading for our pieces.

Houston probably has the most incentive, but Wood is maybe the guy I like the least out of the group.

Houston hasn't been bad for long and may still have their eye around rebuilding in the draft. Sacramento and Detroit are probably more likely to be sick of rebuilding.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I just don't agree with the more ardent anti-Coby voices here. Obviously, he hasn't played well at all so far. I would argue that defensively he's at least trying to stay on his man and trying to be in the right place, but with limited success; offensively, he just doesn't know what to do on this team yet and he's making poor decisions with the ball and not shooting well.

A few points, however:

1. To my knowledge, because of the road trip, the team hasn't actually had a full contact practice with Coby yet. Once he gets a few under his belt, my guess is he'll improve. In the meantime, I think he should continue to play his 10mpg.

2. We didn't lose the Portland game because of Coby. That's a narrative I'm seeing here and it's driving me nuts. The entire team was gassed and shot like crap the whole second half. Blaming Coby for the whole team blowing a twenty point lead is unfair and to take minutes away from him because of said collapse would also be unfair.

Additionally, the Denver game was close because Aaron Gordon was playing out of his mind and looking like Kevin Durant against our undersized frontcourt. That's an issue, but it doesn't have anything to do with Coby.

3. I wish people would stop framing it as some kind of binary choice between Coby and Ayo. If that were the choice, you obviously go with Ayo right now, but that is not the choice. I thought it would be before the season started, but after seeing how BD is using Ayo, I just don't think it is. Coby has been playing backup SG minutes behind Zach; Ayo is backing up PG and some SF as well. That's what's going on. Ayo hasn't lost a minute of playing time yet since Coby was re-inserted into the lineup. Now, I get that Vuc being out means there's extra minutes to play with all around since Coby's return, but I still don't think it's going to be Coby vs Ayo even after Vuc comes back.

In the three games Coby's played so far(with Vuc out), the rotation has looked like this based upon the players' average mpg over those three games:

Bradley(21) / Jones(20) / Green(5) / Alize(2)
DeRozan(35) / Green(13)
Ball(37) / Ayo(7) / TBJ
LaVine(36) / Coby(10) / Thomas
Caruso(35) / Ayo(13)

So, before we try to figure out what a post-Vuc-return rotation with Coby in it would look like, let's ask two questions:

Is Caruso going to continue to start?

and

Is BD going to keep going with the 'death' smallball lineup he's been using with Jones at C?

If the answer to both of those is yes, then you can craft a rotation that essentially cuts Bradley out and trims a few minutes apiece from DJJ and Javonte while re-inserting Vuc and having room for Coby without costing Ayo anything.

Vucevic(32) / Jones(16)
DeRozan(35) / Green(13)
Ball(37) / Ayo(7) / Green(4)
LaVine(36) / Coby(12)
Caruso(35) / Ayo(13)

Is Coby getting those minutes instead of Bradley going to hurt the team? Maybe in certain matchups where we really need Bradley's size off the bench.

Is Coby getting those minutes instead of TBJ going to hurt the team? I'm not convinced.

I don't know if the rotation above will be exactly what BD goes with when Vuc gets back, but my point is that there are ways to give Coby his minutes that won't cost Ayo any. It's a false choice.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I think we should keep giving Coby his 10mpg - not more than that until he earns it; and if he does end up earning it, then we will have tougher choices to make, but I think we can wait until we get to that bridge before we figure out how to cross it.