Pippen's cry for attention is getting worse

[cupcakesnake]

Funny, the same way you think Drexler gets credit for being the leading scorer on deep Trailblazers teams, I think Pippen gets a lot of credit for his defense despite playing on Bulls and Blazers teams that were loaded with talent on the defensive side of the ball outside of him. Drexler was a lot more than just the leading scorer on those Blazer’s teams, he was unquestionably their best player. There’s nothing that Pippen did during his career that would lead me to believe those Blazers teams of the late 80s early 90s would have had just as much success with Pippen leading them over Clyde.

I don't want to overly denigrate Drexler. I don't have Pippen in another planet or tier, I just rank him slightly higher and I think I've explained why. Just listing why Drexler is good doesn't tell me why you think he's better than Pippen. I think Pippen in Drexler's role would have had the early 90s Blazers about the same or a bit better. They were too good a 2-way team at their peak. I think Pippen's passing would actually be better suited in Portland's system (they played pretty fast by the standards of the day) and were loaded with complimentary scorers. They'd be worse in the halfcourt, better in the fullcourt, and their strong defense would get stronger. Though I can see a fair argument for Drexler over Pippen on Portland, as his midrange game really gave the offense a nice resilience. Drexler next to Jordan would have diminishing returns IMO, but maybe we'd have seen Drexler develop other parts of his games, because he was no slouch as a passer.

As for Wilkins, he’s one of the most underrated players in NBA history IMO. Posts like yours about him reinforce that. If you don’t view them as the same era I’m fine with that, and I won’t press the point though.

Can you give me some "why" about your view on Wilkins. I gave him some criticism and all you responded with is that he's underrated and my criticisms reinforce that. Remember that I'm not comparing Wilkins to average NBA players, I'm just saying that amongst the pantheon of stars, there are more holes to poke in Wilkins game than there are in some others. I don't think Wilkins is trash, I just don't think his big scoring numbers are enough to make him a definite top 50 player. I have him just below that threshold.

As far the difference in longevity between Grant Hill and Pippen, it’s not as great as you might think. It only comes out to about one and a half extra seasons of elite play. Not insignificant, but also not overwhelming. I think I probably lean towards Pippen over Hill, but it’s one I definitely have to think about.

Longevity isn't purely a measure of how many games or seasons someone played. It's about the number of quality seasons, the number of all-star quality seasons etc. Grant Hill was awesome as a rookie, and had 5-6 as a top 10 player in the NBA. He was going to be better than Pippen. But then injuries struck his prime short, and he played only 47 total games over the next 4 seasons. Those injuries reduced him to a role player as he finished his Orlando contract. He then had a pretty cool semi comeback where he stuck around the league until the ripe old age of 40, providing some quality play for Phoenix for a good chunk of that.

I have Pippen playing about 9 star level seasons, but only about 5-6 seasons where he was a top 10 player (similar to Hill). I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about Pippen vs Hill, but stacking up their careers just doesn't work in Hill favor due to the injuries that wiped him from age 28-33. Give Hill his prime back, and this is super likely to be a victory to Hill, as he was looking primed to be the wing bridge from MJ to Kobe.

[DaPessimist]

AFAIK Pippen is broke. He's just trying to make money. The easiest way for him to make money off his past glory is to write books and sell interviews.

[Pythagoras]

I don't want to overly denigrate Drexler. I don't have Pippen in another planet or tier, I just rank him slightly higher and I think I've explained why. Just listing why Drexler is good doesn't tell me why you think he's better than Pippen. I think Pippen in Drexler's role would have had the early 90s Blazers about the same or a bit better. They were too good a 2-way team at their peak. I think Pippen's passing would actually be better suited in Portland's system (they played pretty fast by the standards of the day) and were loaded with complimentary scorers. They'd be worse in the halfcourt, better in the fullcourt, and their strong defense would get stronger. Though I can see a fair argument for Drexler over Pippen on Portland, as his midrange game really gave the offense a nice resilience. Drexler next to Jordan would have diminishing returns IMO, but maybe we'd have seen Drexler develop other parts of his games, because he was no slouch as a passer.

I value Drexler over Pippen because I think offensive scoring dominance is more individual focused than defensive dominance. Defensive dominance is definitely individually talent driven, but it also relies on great scheme and teammates moreso than scoring, IMO. I also value great offense over defense with wings and guards, whereas I value defense more with bigs, which is why I have Duncan and Garnett over Dirk. I think Drexler and Jordan would’ve been fine together because they could both shoot. If Lebron and Wade could coexist and still be effective I think those two could as well.

Can you give me some "why" about your view on Wilkins. I gave him some criticism and all you responded with is that he's underrated and my criticisms reinforce that. Remember that I'm not comparing Wilkins to average NBA players, I'm just saying that amongst the pantheon of stars, there are more holes to poke in Wilkins game than there are in some others. I don't think Wilkins is trash, I just don't think his big scoring numbers are enough to make him a definite top 50 player. I have him just below that threshold.

I think Wilkins is underrated because he unfairly gets labeled as a bit of a volume scorer. His career OBPM is almost double Pippen’s. Yes, there where holes in his game but I think sometimes people overly focus on those holes and don’t appreciate how dominant as an offensive player he was, and I do think it’s fair to say he was dominant offensively.

Longevity isn't purely a measure of how many games or seasons someone played. It's about the number of quality seasons, the number of all-star quality seasons etc. Grant Hill was awesome as a rookie, and had 5-6 as a top 10 player in the NBA. He was going to be better than Pippen. But then injuries struck his prime short, and he played only 47 total games over the next 4 seasons. Those injuries reduced him to a role player as he finished his Orlando contract. He then had a pretty cool semi comeback where he stuck around the league until the ripe old age of 40, providing some quality play for Phoenix for a good chunk of that.

I have Pippen playing about 9 star level seasons, but only about 5-6 seasons where he was a top 10 player (similar to Hill). I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about Pippen vs Hill, but stacking up their careers just doesn't work in Hill favor due to the injuries that wiped him from age 28-33. Give Hill his prime back, and this is super likely to be a victory to Hill, as he was looking primed to be the wing bridge from MJ to Kobe.

I wasn’t just stacking their careers. To me it goes, rookie Hill >> Rookie Pippen, Pippen post Chicago ~ Hill in Phoenix and last 3 seasons in Orlando, so it really comes down to peak Pippen vs peak Hill. I think they’re probably comparable players at their absolute best, but Pippen probably has about 1-1/2 extra seasons of elite play over Grant Hill.

[The4thHorseman]

That's funny. I grew up watching Pippen, and I never thought much about him. Sure he was a great side-kick to Jordan, but by himself - never really saw anything special. I have no doubt that you could have plugged in a ton of other players in his spot, and they would have done just as well as he did.
My opinion of Pippen is based on watching him for pretty much his whole career. Oh, I'm sure that you can probably find lots of stats and numbers justifying the esteem that many give him, but I think that most of his numbers came from his situation, and that were it not for Jordan, his numbers wouldn't be any higher than the average player in the NBA back then. Again, no Jordan - pretty much nobody would have heard of Pippen.
Again, that's just my opinion of watching him play for all those years, and others are welcome to their opinion of him.

So despite being a great player with the data to back it up you still give Jordan all the credit? No, you could not just plug in “a ton of other players” and get the same results. Stuff like this is part of the reason Scottie is losing his mind.

1 - Yes, yes I do. Jordan made Pippen who he was. No Jordan - nobody ever hears about Pippen.
2 - Yes, I beleive you could have plugged in a lot of different players to do the same exact role that Pippen played, and play it just as well.
Pippen was a pretty good Robin to Jordan's Batman. But sidekicks aren't really all that special in themselves.

You're not making sense.

If MJ made Pippen, then why are you giving MJ all this credit for making a player who you say can easily be replaced? If Pip is nothing special, why praise MJ for "making" him that way?

[Beethoven]

The title made me think scottie came out in the media again saying something but it is just something he said in his book. His book came out a while ago so not sure why you make it his cry is getting worse.

[Petergrifindor]

He's always been this way.

Petty man.

[Joshyjess]

So despite being a great player with the data to back it up you still give Jordan all the credit? No, you could not just plug in “a ton of other players” and get the same results. Stuff like this is part of the reason Scottie is losing his mind.

1 - Yes, yes I do. Jordan made Pippen who he was. No Jordan - nobody ever hears about Pippen.
2 - Yes, I beleive you could have plugged in a lot of different players to do the same exact role that Pippen played, and play it just as well.
Pippen was a pretty good Robin to Jordan's Batman. But sidekicks aren't really all that special in themselves.

You're not making sense.

If MJ made Pippen, then why are you giving MJ all this credit for making a player who you say can easily be replaced? If Pip is nothing special, why praise MJ for "making" him that way?

Because it goes to the kind of player that Jordan was - he could take a player like Pippen and make him into a household name. He could have probably taken quite a few guys and done the same thing with them. The less "special" that Pippen was, the more credit that Jordan gets.

[Pharmcat]

That's funny. I grew up watching Pippen, and I never thought much about him. Sure he was a great side-kick to Jordan, but by himself - never really saw anything special. I have no doubt that you could have plugged in a ton of other players in his spot, and they would have done just as well as he did.
My opinion of Pippen is based on watching him for pretty much his whole career. Oh, I'm sure that you can probably find lots of stats and numbers justifying the esteem that many give him, but I think that most of his numbers came from his situation, and that were it not for Jordan, his numbers wouldn't be any higher than the average player in the NBA back then. Again, no Jordan - pretty much nobody would have heard of Pippen.
Again, that's just my opinion of watching him play for all those years, and others are welcome to their opinion of him.

So despite being a great player with the data to back it up you still give Jordan all the credit? No, you could not just plug in “a ton of other players” and get the same results. Stuff like this is part of the reason Scottie is losing his mind.

1 - Yes, yes I do. Jordan made Pippen who he was. No Jordan - nobody ever hears about Pippen.
2 - Yes, I beleive you could have plugged in a lot of different players to do the same exact role that Pippen played, and play it just as well.
Pippen was a pretty good Robin to Jordan's Batman. But sidekicks aren't really all that special in themselves.

how many rings did jordan win without pippen? I believe the answer is a big fat 0

[HabsAndDubs]

Arguably Pippen’s most impressive feat is how he’s made people somehow feel and sympathize with Jordan, arguably the least relatable athlete of all time, because of all this stuff. This is like if in 20 years Klay Thompson comes out and says that Steph wasn’t all that as a shooter, and that the history books underrate Kevon Looney, Damion Lee and Andrew Bogut’s contributions, because golden state won by comitee.

Actually, Klay is a good comparison for Pippen- a bonafide hall of famer by his own merit, but got elevated to legendary status because he played on some of the best teams of his generation, led by one of the all time greats.

[Joshyjess]

So despite being a great player with the data to back it up you still give Jordan all the credit? No, you could not just plug in “a ton of other players” and get the same results. Stuff like this is part of the reason Scottie is losing his mind.

1 - Yes, yes I do. Jordan made Pippen who he was. No Jordan - nobody ever hears about Pippen.
2 - Yes, I beleive you could have plugged in a lot of different players to do the same exact role that Pippen played, and play it just as well.
Pippen was a pretty good Robin to Jordan's Batman. But sidekicks aren't really all that special in themselves.

how many rings did jordan win without pippen? I believe the answer is a big fat 0

He only won three rings without Luke Longley. Does that mean that without the super-all star Longely that Jordan would only have 3 rings instead of six?
Your logic doesn't make sense. Yes, Pippen was there for all of Jordan's rings, but that doesn't logically mean that Jordan couldn't have won those rings without Pippen. Who is that guy that was on Lebron's team for most of his rings (I can't remember his name), would Lebron have won any rings if he wasn't there? What I'm saying is that Jordan could have had other guys there instead of Pippen, and still have won those rings. I just don't think Pippen deserves all the credit he gets because of the situation he was in. Wathcing him all those years, I never thought he was all that special.
If others disagree, fine, no problem, but I know what I saw, and to me it doesn't scream super-star player.

[Sothron]

First he goes all out on Jordan in his new book (you know the guy who made Pippen a name that people have actually heard of), and now he's expanding his attack to other sports. Now he's saying that Brady isn't the best player in the NFL. Why? Because Brady doesn't play all postitions, so therefore he can't be the best. Uhh, Pippen, newsbreak - NOBODY in the NFL plays all positions. So does that mean that Nobody in the NFL is the best player in the NFL?????
Listen, I get it if people try to say that the Best NFL player isn't as great as the best NBA player because of the whole "plays both side of the ball" arguement (there have been multiple threads here on the GM about that). But to say that an NFL player isn't the best NFL player trying to use this same argument puts you in the Kyrie shcool of Coo-Coo for Coco Puffs. Does any player in the NFL play both QB and Safety? Does any player in the NFL play both offensive and defensive line? Does any player in the NFL play both WR and Kicker?
So I guess apparently there isn't a best player in the NFL?
Pippen, just accept the fact that you were at best a mediocre player who got some fame being a side-kick to a much better player, and you will probably be a much happier person. Because right now you are coming across as a bitter, unhappy little troll who is desperately crying out for attention that frankly you never really deserved.

You lost all credibility as a NBA fan to call the greatest perimeter defender in the history of the NBA and one of, if not the, best two way players EVER in the NBA a "mediocre" player. Pippen's book is great. I don't agree with all his points but he makes several good arguments.

And yes, about the NFL thing, I saw that YT interview he gave. I don't know what Pip was talking about. No one in the NFL plays both sides of the ball. So I don't know what he's talking about that Brady isn't the best NFL player because he didn't play defense. That's a horrible argument. So you are right about that.

[Joshyjess]

First he goes all out on Jordan in his new book (you know the guy who made Pippen a name that people have actually heard of), and now he's expanding his attack to other sports. Now he's saying that Brady isn't the best player in the NFL. Why? Because Brady doesn't play all postitions, so therefore he can't be the best. Uhh, Pippen, newsbreak - NOBODY in the NFL plays all positions. So does that mean that Nobody in the NFL is the best player in the NFL?????
Listen, I get it if people try to say that the Best NFL player isn't as great as the best NBA player because of the whole "plays both side of the ball" arguement (there have been multiple threads here on the GM about that). But to say that an NFL player isn't the best NFL player trying to use this same argument puts you in the Kyrie shcool of Coo-Coo for Coco Puffs. Does any player in the NFL play both QB and Safety? Does any player in the NFL play both offensive and defensive line? Does any player in the NFL play both WR and Kicker?
So I guess apparently there isn't a best player in the NFL?
Pippen, just accept the fact that you were at best a mediocre player who got some fame being a side-kick to a much better player, and you will probably be a much happier person. Because right now you are coming across as a bitter, unhappy little troll who is desperately crying out for attention that frankly you never really deserved.

You lost all credibility as a NBA fan to call the greatest perimeter defender in the history of the NBA and one of, if not the, best two way players EVER in the NBA a "mediocre" player. Pippen's book is great. I don't agree with all his points but he makes several good arguments.

And yes, about the NFL thing, I saw that YT interview he gave. I don't know what Pip was talking about. No one in the NFL plays both sides of the ball. So I don't know what he's talking about that Brady isn't the best NFL player because he didn't play defense. That's a horrible argument. So you are right about that.

1 out of 2 - Hey, I'll take it.

[azwfan]

Pippen is trying to sell his book. I'd frankly be extremely surprised if its anything more than that. He should feel embarrassed about the bed he made 25 years ago. (Sitting out of championship season due to contract & sitting out of a final possession cause the play wasn't called for him). Probably embarrassed about it being cemented in current basketball fans' minds on Netflix. Shrug.

He's probably not friends with MJ (as MJ was a jerk) and doesn't care about trying to use MJ's clout to get more copies of his book sold.

[D.Brasco]

A lot of character and judgement shots being lobbed at Pippen. Imagine if MJ was judged on his off court character the way Pippen is here?

[Tracymcgoaty]

Bruh talking like Pippen was a scrub or something. Pippen is an **** so is MJ. But MJ wouldn't be MJ wihtout Pippen and vice versa. Lets not act like Pippen was a scrub averaging 10ppg on elite defense or something.

[HMFFL]

Pippen's just not very liked within the NBA or media. He's failed at everything in his post NBA career due to his personality and attitude. I have been in the entertainment industry for 25yrs and I haven't heard anything good regarding him.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[GoBobs]

I don't care about Pippen's opinion on the NFL but I do care that you're calling Pippen a mediocre player. Being second best to arguably the greatest of all-time doesn't make you mediocre. Pippen was the second-best wing of an entire era, full stop.

He does come across bitter and unhappy though. But takes like yours make his bitterness a tiny bit more justified. Brutal, clueless assessment of Pippen as a basketball player. Pippen has bad takes but I guess he isn't alone in that.

He wasn’t the second best wing of his era. He just wasn’t.

So who was?

Glen Rice was better than Pippen and Glen Robinson was better than Pippen. That is how far Pippen was from being the second best wing. There were two dudes named Glen that were better.

Pippen was in a tier with a lot of other wings like A. Houston, R. Miller. He did nothing to prove he was better than those guys.

The reason Pippen made a bunch of Allstar games is because people were like the Bulls are great the deserve at least two all stars. Same reason he is on these all time great lists. People are like the Bulls are an all time great franchise. They deserve at least two guys. It is the same reason Kris Middleton makes allstar games.

Saying Pippen was the 2nd best wing in the 90s is like saying Middleton was the 2nd best wing last year. You can make all the same excuses. He would have scored more if Gannis didn't take all the shots. He guarded the best player so Gannis could rest. Anybody that watched would say it is silly though.

There were numerous guys better than Pippen and even more guys on about the same level. To say he was the 2nd best wing of his generation is just making stuff up.

[cupcakesnake]

I don't want to overly denigrate Drexler. I don't have Pippen in another planet or tier, I just rank him slightly higher and I think I've explained why. Just listing why Drexler is good doesn't tell me why you think he's better than Pippen. I think Pippen in Drexler's role would have had the early 90s Blazers about the same or a bit better. They were too good a 2-way team at their peak. I think Pippen's passing would actually be better suited in Portland's system (they played pretty fast by the standards of the day) and were loaded with complimentary scorers. They'd be worse in the halfcourt, better in the fullcourt, and their strong defense would get stronger. Though I can see a fair argument for Drexler over Pippen on Portland, as his midrange game really gave the offense a nice resilience. Drexler next to Jordan would have diminishing returns IMO, but maybe we'd have seen Drexler develop other parts of his games, because he was no slouch as a passer.

I value Drexler over Pippen because I think offensive scoring dominance is more individual focused than defensive dominance. Defensive dominance is definitely individually talent driven, but it also relies on great scheme and teammates moreso than scoring, IMO. I also value great offense over defense with wings and guards, whereas I value defense more with bigs, which is why I have Duncan and Garnett over Dirk. I think Drexler and Jordan would’ve been fine together because they could both shoot. If Lebron and Wade could coexist and still be effective I think those two could as well.

I'm fine wit someone valuing offense over defense. I think this kind of thing is sort of subjective and comes down to taste. Most people like offense more (watching it, playing it) and therefore value it more. I have a bit of a defensive bias, loved playing, coaching it, watching it. I actually have no idea though (offense vs. defense) and it's a discourse I like to follow the development of in the long term of NBA basketball.

Everything you're saying about defense (relies on great schemes and teammates) is something I say applies to offense. Does it apply equally? More so? Less so? (again no idea). While offensive skills aren't reliant on teammates, offensive success is. Drivers and post players need space, cutters need passers, passers need finishers, certain offensive players thrive more or less in different systems and with different personnel. Defensive talent (size, length, tenacity, fundamentals, athleticism, quick thinking) is also independent of teammates and system, but fitting into the correct personnel and system is going to change your success in dramatically. Great rim protectors allow perimeter defenders to play more aggressively, strong perimeter stoppers can make help defense easier etc. Pippen was a great athlete with huge hands, monster wingspan and immense defensive tenacity. He was a mean dude who loved to get into ball handlers, and he was an elite turnover creator and also drew a ton of offensive fouls. He wasn't actually the quickest dude around though. There's a reason he ate up an old Magic Johnson a few times, and Mark Jackson, but couldn't be used as effectively on, say, Payton or Kevin Johnson. I think he was a better 2-3-4 defended than a point guard defender (despite some people thinking of him as a pure ball hawk).

Watch on YouTube

The Bulls were indeed a great defensive team, but all available data suggests Pippen was their best defender, and would likely boost defense on whatever team he played on. Great defenders will get less credit if they play on poor defensive teams (I think Shawn Marion is the best example of this), but great offensive players who play on poor offenses will also get questions raised about them (think Allen Iverson).

You could be right about the intrinsic individual value of offense. I disagree and think they're more or less equal. It's not a question that I think can be answered with a ton of certainty.

[The4thHorseman]

1 - Yes, yes I do. Jordan made Pippen who he was. No Jordan - nobody ever hears about Pippen.
2 - Yes, I beleive you could have plugged in a lot of different players to do the same exact role that Pippen played, and play it just as well.
Pippen was a pretty good Robin to Jordan's Batman. But sidekicks aren't really all that special in themselves.

You're not making sense.

If MJ made Pippen, then why are you giving MJ all this credit for making a player who you say can easily be replaced? If Pip is nothing special, why praise MJ for "making" him that way?

Because it goes to the kind of player that Jordan was - he could take a player like Pippen and make him into a household name. He could have probably taken quite a few guys and done the same thing with them. The less "special" that Pippen was, the more credit that Jordan gets.

But you're acting as if Pippen was the 35th pick in the draft, instead of the 5th overall.

Why did MJ wait until his 4th year in the league to work on making a teammate a household name? You speculating that he could have done it for quite a few guys, yet for some reason he chose not to? Why is that?

[cupcakesnake]

He wasn’t the second best wing of his era. He just wasn’t.

So who was?

Glen Rice was better than Pippen and Glen Robinson was better than Pippen. That is how far Pippen was from being the second best wing. There were two dudes named Glen that were better.

Pippen was in a tier with a lot of other wings like A. Houston, R. Miller. He did nothing to prove he was better than those guys.

The reason Pippen made a bunch of Allstar games is because people were like the Bulls are great the deserve at least two all stars. Same reason he is on these all time great lists. People are like the Bulls are an all time great franchise. They deserve at least two guys. It is the same reason Kris Middleton makes allstar games.

Saying Pippen was the 2nd best wing in the 90s is like saying Middleton was the 2nd best wing last year. You can make all the same excuses. He would have scored more if Gannis didn't take all the shots. He guarded the best player so Gannis could rest. Anybody that watched would say it is silly though.

There were numerous guys better than Pippen and even more guys on about the same level. To say he was the 2nd best wing of his generation is just making stuff up.

You're not really giving me anything to respond to here. You're listing guys who you think are better but you aren't saying why. I don't know why you would think the 2 Glens are better than Pippen. I've never seen that opinion before. If you want to explain that one to me, I'll respond.

Your apples to oranges comparison of Middleton doesn't resonate much with me. I don't know what Middleton and Giannis have to do with Pippen and Jordan. I'm not arguing that Pippen "could have done more", I think he did enough in his career to be rated as an arguable top 30 player all-time. The whole theoretical "without Jordan" Pippen arguments are unnecessary because we got almost 2 seasons worth of games of Pippen playing with Jordan during Jordan's retirement. Pippen was the best player on a 55 win team that was a tough out in the playoffs. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year. I'm not saying Pippen is the goat or that he could lead any team to a championship if you let him, I'm saying Pippen is a top 30 player and that his best attributes were defense, passing, and decent complimentary scoring. I'm guessing you really value scoring and scoring only if you **** on Scottie by calling him worse than dudes named Glen