Stephen Curry's Defense

[SecondTake]

People say he’s a weak defender because other teams try to attack him, but often I think they’re attacking him not because he’s exploitable but because they’re trying to tire him out so he won’t kill them so badly on the other end.

They were attacking him, because the alternative options were attacking Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala, Klay Thompson, and Kevin Durant.

So you're basically admitting hes a worse defender and player than even KD?

[70sFan]

The Celtics are closer to average (-3.6) than they are the Warriors (-8.2) so far.

Sure thing and by no means I wanted to compare Curry to Walker. It's just I don't agree that you can't build 1st defense with weak spot at PG.

This is from the older era, but 2004 Spurs with 21 years old Parker starting is another example - and they were actually better than Warriors.

I agree with your general point of being able to build great defenses with weak defenders (especially at G slots), but disagree with that meaning much here as I don't find either situation particularly comparable to Curry/Warriors, Poole is the comp to Walker/Parker. If you can find a great defensive team with multiple weak guards it would be more comparable.

Again - I didn't say that's the case with Warriors. I just wanted to point out that the thesis isn't true in all cases - Warriors situation aside.

[70sFan]

It really depends how weak to be honest. There's no way Kemba Walker will ever be part of a number 1 defense playing the way he is right now, I'll tell you that much. Personally with the way basketball has changed and how important it is to defend people at the point of attack, I find it hard to believe you can be the best defense in the league if you're constantly giving up penetration into the paint.

I feel like you need to be at least average or slightly above average at the PG spot. To be a legit negative there is a lot to ask for your teammates to cover for.

Kemba Walker played in the Celtics in 2020 and although they weren't the best in the league defensively, they did finished 4th.

This season which was referenced. Walker in his 49% of minutes played as the team giving up 19.9 more points per 100 than with him off the floor. So yeah, no way in hell given how he's played THIS season, you could do that. They were only 6 points worse in 2020 with him on the floor.

Cool, but it doesn't disprove my point.

[picc]

People say he’s a weak defender because other teams try to attack him, but often I think they’re attacking him not because he’s exploitable but because they’re trying to tire him out so he won’t kill them so badly on the other end.

They were attacking him, because the alternative options were attacking Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala, Klay Thompson, and Kevin Durant.

So you're basically admitting hes a worse defender and player than even KD?

Yes?

Cant tell if this is serious or not.

[dhsilv2]

Kemba Walker played in the Celtics in 2020 and although they weren't the best in the league defensively, they did finished 4th.

This season which was referenced. Walker in his 49% of minutes played as the team giving up 19.9 more points per 100 than with him off the floor. So yeah, no way in hell given how he's played THIS season, you could do that. They were only 6 points worse in 2020 with him on the floor.

Cool, but it doesn't disprove my point.

I think the point being made is about just how TERRIBLE walker is this year, and by referencing a year that his defense doesn't appear to have been nearly as bad doesn't really fit. The issue at hand is the magnitude of bad.

Steve Kerr you could argue was a plus offensive NBA player. MJ was also a plus offensive NBA player. The level of "plus" here might actually be similar to the bad version of walker between bad and holy hell....why is this man even on the floor playing bad he appears to be this year (I haven't broken down games to make a claim more than the small sample of data does seem to paint that Walker is at least 2-3 tiers worse as a defender this year than in the past).

[dickfox]

Imagine the defender he could be if he didn't spend all of his time practicing shooting to be the best shooter that there ever could be?

[ShootersShoot]

At the end of the day Curry will be the weakest defender in any Golden State closing lineup. It's why big brother Klay guards the best perimeter option and when that fails, he has Iggy or in this case Wiggins to back him up.

What is your point exactly? That steph isnt a good defender because he is on a team with better defenders? Think about it like this, if a team has five superstars on it, one of them will always be the weakest link.

Also please consider how much harder it is to hide steph on defense when poole is on the floor.

[Heej]

Sure thing and by no means I wanted to compare Curry to Walker. It's just I don't agree that you can't build 1st defense with weak spot at PG.

This is from the older era, but 2004 Spurs with 21 years old Parker starting is another example - and they were actually better than Warriors.

I agree with your general point of being able to build great defenses with weak defenders (especially at G slots), but disagree with that meaning much here as I don't find either situation particularly comparable to Curry/Warriors, Poole is the comp to Walker/Parker. If you can find a great defensive team with multiple weak guards it would be more comparable.

Again - I didn't say that's the case with Warriors. I just wanted to point out that the thesis isn't true in all cases - Warriors situation aside.

Personally I always found Tony Parker to be average to above average as a defensive PG. There's never a number 1 defense in the NBA with a massive net negative defender averaging 30+ minutes per game. Imo it's just not possible with the way basketball is played. Especially in today's league where weaknesses are exposed more whether it be on ball or in help rotations due to how much the ball swings around the floor nowadays.

The same way water tends to collect at the lowest level of an area, buckets tend to collect where defenses are weakest. You can't hide bad guard defenders to the extent that they were hidden pre-2010s because at some point they'll be called upon to tag rollmen, navigate off-ball screening action, help out on rebounds, close out on shooters, defend the point of attack, etc. Too much action nowadays. Back in the 90s being a bad defender at your position just meant that whatever position you were guarding was gonna go off for slightly more than their averages that night. Teams were very rigid with their game plans back then.

Being a bad defender now means not only are you liable to straight up getting hunted, you're just a massive fault line in defenses that are more reliant on being connected and helping the helper than ever before. I'll even give you that it was theoretically possible in different eras of basketball to construct a #1 defense with a bad defensive PG, but it's 100% not in the one we're in now imo. There's just too much talent in the league, on offense and defense. That team would just get overtaken by one of the other great defensive ensembles in the league that lacks major weaknesses. But I guess we'll just have to see over the decade who gets proven right in this regard because neither of us will agree with the other no matter what

[Heej]

This season which was referenced. Walker in his 49% of minutes played as the team giving up 19.9 more points per 100 than with him off the floor. So yeah, no way in hell given how he's played THIS season, you could do that. They were only 6 points worse in 2020 with him on the floor.

Cool, but it doesn't disprove my point.

I think the point being made is about just how TERRIBLE walker is this year, and by referencing a year that his defense doesn't appear to have been nearly as bad doesn't really fit. The issue at hand is the magnitude of bad.

Steve Kerr you could argue was a plus offensive NBA player. MJ was also a plus offensive NBA player. The level of "plus" here might actually be similar to the bad version of walker between bad and holy hell....why is this man even on the floor playing bad he appears to be this year (I haven't broken down games to make a claim more than the small sample of data does seem to paint that Walker is at least 2-3 tiers worse as a defender this year than in the past).

This lol, Kemba is washed up to an ungodly degree right now. Whatever has been bugging him between this year and last caused him to take a massive step backwards, especially on the defensive end. It's really not all that apt a response.

[art_tatum]

His only problem is that he gets lost on D and loses his man off ball. Bc he's busy paying attention to the ball handler.

His man on man (if he has the ball) is decent and he is great in the passing lanes and good help D. But bc hes focused on passing lanes and such he loses his man off ball. Or blow certain rotations.

[70sFan]

I agree with your general point of being able to build great defenses with weak defenders (especially at G slots), but disagree with that meaning much here as I don't find either situation particularly comparable to Curry/Warriors, Poole is the comp to Walker/Parker. If you can find a great defensive team with multiple weak guards it would be more comparable.

Again - I didn't say that's the case with Warriors. I just wanted to point out that the thesis isn't true in all cases - Warriors situation aside.

Personally I always found Tony Parker to be average to above average as a defensive PG. There's never a number 1 defense in the NBA with a massive net negative defender averaging 30+ minutes per game. Imo it's just not possible with the way basketball is played. Especially in today's league where weaknesses are exposed more whether it be on ball or in help rotations due to how much the ball swings around the floor nowadays.

The same way water tends to collect at the lowest level of an area, buckets tend to collect where defenses are weakest. You can't hide bad guard defenders to the extent that they were hidden pre-2010s because at some point they'll be called upon to tag rollmen, navigate off-ball screening action, help out on rebounds, close out on shooters, defend the point of attack, etc. Too much action nowadays. Back in the 90s being a bad defender at your position just meant that whatever position you were guarding was gonna go off for slightly more than their averages that night. Teams were very rigid with their game plans back then.

Being a bad defender now means not only are you liable to straight up getting hunted, you're just a massive fault line in defenses that are more reliant on being connected and helping the helper than ever before. I'll even give you that it was theoretically possible in different eras of basketball to construct a #1 defense with a bad defensive PG, but it's 100% not in the one we're in now imo. There's just too much talent in the league, on offense and defense. That team would just get overtaken by one of the other great defensive ensembles in the league that lacks major weaknesses. But I guess we'll just have to see over the decade who gets proven right in this regard because neither of us will agree with the other no matter what

Prime Parker wasn't a bad defender, but we're talking about 2002-04 version, who was quite bad.

You made some good points though and I appreciate your feedback!

[Heej]

Again - I didn't say that's the case with Warriors. I just wanted to point out that the thesis isn't true in all cases - Warriors situation aside.

Personally I always found Tony Parker to be average to above average as a defensive PG. There's never a number 1 defense in the NBA with a massive net negative defender averaging 30+ minutes per game. Imo it's just not possible with the way basketball is played. Especially in today's league where weaknesses are exposed more whether it be on ball or in help rotations due to how much the ball swings around the floor nowadays.

The same way water tends to collect at the lowest level of an area, buckets tend to collect where defenses are weakest. You can't hide bad guard defenders to the extent that they were hidden pre-2010s because at some point they'll be called upon to tag rollmen, navigate off-ball screening action, help out on rebounds, close out on shooters, defend the point of attack, etc. Too much action nowadays. Back in the 90s being a bad defender at your position just meant that whatever position you were guarding was gonna go off for slightly more than their averages that night. Teams were very rigid with their game plans back then.

Being a bad defender now means not only are you liable to straight up getting hunted, you're just a massive fault line in defenses that are more reliant on being connected and helping the helper than ever before. I'll even give you that it was theoretically possible in different eras of basketball to construct a #1 defense with a bad defensive PG, but it's 100% not in the one we're in now imo. There's just too much talent in the league, on offense and defense. That team would just get overtaken by one of the other great defensive ensembles in the league that lacks major weaknesses. But I guess we'll just have to see over the decade who gets proven right in this regard because neither of us will agree with the other no matter what

Prime Parker wasn't a bad defender, but we're talking about 2002-04 version, who was quite bad.

You made some good points though and I appreciate your feedback!

Hmm yeah I guess I don't remember how he was when he was younger. I'd really need to go do some film work before I even tried to debate that with you lol.

Same to you my man! Great chatting as always haha

[Raonak]

He's been a great defender this year. He's not a negative like other superstar guards (dame, harden, kyrie, trey)

Hell, even in the dynasty years, I think Steph put more effort into defense than KD.

[ty 4191]

What are the best metrics to measure defense (since Curry started playing)?

[ty 4191]

How Warriors’ Steph Curry transformed himself into a quality defender

Connor Letourneau
Feb. 25, 2021
Updated: Feb. 25, 2021 8:23 p.m.

Before he added necessary bulk, before he cut down on reach-ins, before he stopped giving up a couple backdoor layups per game, Warriors guard Stephen Curry approached then-head coach Mark Jackson with a request: let him defend his position.

It was fall 2013, and Curry was tired of hearing that he was a second-tier point guard. Perhaps he’d cement himself as one of the league’s best, he figured, if he could make life difficult on Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook and others. The only problem? Curry was ill-equipped for such a challenge, and Jackson knew it.

But even as he continued to hide Curry on spot-up shooters away from the action while Klay Thompson guarded opposing point guards, Jackson appreciated that Curry had the gall to ask for one of the team’s trickiest defensive assignments. The mere request showed something that Jackson knew boded well for Curry’s future.

Now in his seventh season in head coach Steve Kerr’s switch-heavy scheme, Curry, 32, is a big reason the Warriors boast the NBA’s fourth-best defense. Though he won’t be mistaken for a lockdown defender anytime soon, he handles his assignment well enough to be considered above average.

Players are shooting 43.5% from the field when Curry guards them, 1.2% worse than when Curry isn’t on them. Long prone to reach-ins, he has learned to be more patient, seldom attempting a steal unless his man makes an egregious mistake.

Still, Curry is a near-constant nuisance for opponents. His 2.5 deflections per game rank 22nd among NBA guards. Perhaps most importantly, Curry has been effective without drawing whistles. His 1.9 fouls per game are on pace to be a career low — a major development given that, to be the driving force behind the Warriors’ offense, he must first stay on the floor.

Teammates attribute much of Curry’s improved defense to added muscle. During the extended offseason, he worked with the Warriors’ performance staff often on his core strength and conditioning. Little more than two weeks shy of his 33rd birthday, Curry is powering through screens, brushing off holds and grabs, and rarely getting fatigued.

With less than four minutes left in Wednesday’s win over the Pacers, Curry weaved past two screens from 6-foot-11, 240-pound Domantas Sabonis to stick with Indiana guard Justin Holiday, deflect his pass and force a turnover. After the game, Kerr went out of his way to laud Curry’s effort on that end, saying, “I think Steph’s defense this year has been totally overlooked because everyone’s locked in on his scoring and shooting. His defense has been fantastic.”

This leaves opponents with no obvious player to attack in pick-and-roll situations.

Alongside Curry, the Warriors’ starting lineup features skilled perimeter defenders (Kelly Oubre Jr. and Andrew Wiggins), one of the league’s best all-around stoppers (Draymond Green) and a reliable positional defender (Kevon Looney). That group has posted a 93.1 defensive rating in 106 minutes together, which, nearly halfway through the season, is the NBA’s best mark among five-man lineups that have played at least 100 minutes.

“Steph’s been fantastic,” Green said. “Due to his defense and the way he’s fighting on that side of the ball, there are no holes in our defense.”

Early in Curry’s career, the notion of him being a key part of the league’s top defensive unit would’ve seemed far-fetched. Curry himself has admitted that he was awful on that side of the ball when he entered the NBA out of Davidson. In addition to lacking much of a grasp on positioning and angles, he simply didn’t approach defense with the same vigor that he took to offense.

But Curry soon realized that his defense was keeping him out of the discussion for the NBA’s premier point guards. A year after Jackson rejected his request to guard his position, Curry began to flash his defensive potential under Kerr, who stopped hiding Curry on spot-up shooters in the corner.

Curry showed that he has quick enough hands and sound enough instincts to at least not be a liability on defense. Then, in 2015-16, he blossomed into a helpful defender. With his nagging ankle issues behind him, Curry led the league with 2.1 steals per game. His defensive win share of 4.1 — a stat that measures how many projected wins he added with his defense — led all point guards.

In the half-decade since then, Curry’s defense has oscillated between average and above average. But given that defensive strides can be difficult to pinpoint, many clung to the old narrative that Curry was a bad defender. Just last spring, LeBron James’ business partner, Maverick Carter, made headlines for saying that Curry “can’t f—ing play defense” and “would have trouble guarding me.”

Curry dismissed Carter’s comments publicly, but those who know the two-time MVP well could sense that they irked him. Last summer, as he endured workouts designed to improve his explosiveness and lateral quickness, Curry envisioned being so dependable defensively that even his harshest critics couldn’t question his contributions on that side of the ball.

It remains to be seen whether Curry has completely dispelled the perception of him as a poor defender, but one thing is certain: The coaches and players who rely on his two-way abilities daily are ecstatic about what they’ve seen from him this season.

“He’s active as hell,” forward Eric Paschall said. “He’s all over the place. He’s standing his ground on drives and playing very well. I feel like he’s very underrated.”

[floppymoose]

As a GS fan who has watched most games he has played in the nba, I'm very pleased with his defense. And I love that some teams try to pick on him, it almost always works out in GS's favor.

[SecondTake]

They were attacking him, because the alternative options were attacking Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala, Klay Thompson, and Kevin Durant.

So you're basically admitting hes a worse defender and player than even KD?

Yes?

Cant tell if this is serious or not.

Wow you should sticky this then. I've seen you praise Curry as an all time great, yet right here you're saying he's not even better than Durant. Please make a decision.

Sent from my SM-G950W using RealGM mobile app

[sp6r=underrated]

He's never been a bad defender. It was always rooted in his size and the way he plays on offense. People assumed he was a bad defender despite all evidence to the contrary.

Mirror image of how Kobe was considered a good defender, because he looked like a good defender, long, visibly competitive and athletic.

[picc]

So you're basically admitting hes a worse defender and player than even KD?

Yes?

Cant tell if this is serious or not.

Wow you should sticky this then. I've seen you praise Curry as an all time great, yet right here you're saying he's not even better than Durant. Please make a decision.

Sent from my SM-G950W using RealGM mobile app

You're a funny dude.

[Strepbacter]

He's never been a bad defender. It was always rooted in his size and the way he plays on offense. People assumed he was a bad defender despite all evidence to the contrary.

Mirror image of how Kobe was considered a good defender, because he looked like a good defender, long, visibly competitive and athletic.

Kobe was the best defensive guard in the league at his best. Curry isn't in the same universe on that end.

Nice try tho.