Coby White discussion thread

[coldfish]

Ive seen things go from Vuc needs to be traded and start Bradley to Vuc is our most important player. Ive also seen people talking about how badly the Bulls need White to now the Bulls need to send him to the G league. When Zach would miss a few shots people were wanting him to have surgery or have BD bench him. This board has most definitely not been "ecstatic" this year. Its more chicken little's.

Nah.

The homers on this board just hate it when people discuss what is going on in the present.

Vuc was playing terrible at points early on. Realistically, I can't say that Chicago has missed Vucevic that much because he really was hurting the team on offense frequently. And I'm a huge Vucevic fan, supported the trade and think he will be a long term asset.

Zach did have a few bad games after he had his hand wrapped.

The homers on this board just project too much effectively automatically creating strawman arguments. For the most part, these homers have been fantastically wrong over the past year as they were the ones defending Lauri, Wendell, etc as AK was figuring out how to dump them. They are functionally broken clocks saying "everything is fine" all of the time and when it turns out they are right, they pat themselves on the back despite their terrible track record.

Side note: The negative nancies (and we know who they are) who think everything is terrible no matter what, have been even MORE wrong.

IDK if i would call the people who wanted Vuc benched and traded homers. He was not playing terrible. He was shooting terrible. Basketball is more then just putting the ball in the bucket, as you can see with Caruso Lavine was not playing bad for a few games. he has scored 25+ points in pretty much every game this year. People just need to stop living play to play. He is an MVP candidate for a reason. You could also make a case for Lauri and Wendell last year. Sure it got to a point you needed to move on. But its not like it was all projection or hope with them. WCJ is already showing in Orlando what most Bulls fans projected him to be. But even at that projection Vuc is better. So it was a good trade to make. It would be much better if fans could kind of have a smarter take on things but being a fan is emotional so i cant say i 100% blame them for being that way. Just is what it is.

I didn't realize Wendell is shooting 43% from 3 this year on a good volume. If he did that in Chicago, he would have had a lot more fans. If there were people here saying that Wendell is about to become an elite outside shooter then they should pat themselves on the back. I don't recall seeing that.

I don't have an issue with someone commenting that player X is having a bad game and being frustrated with it. Where it gets ridiculous is when a player who has been doing well has an off game and people want to dump him for it.

[sco]

So who do folks think will be in our rotation in a month?

Coby
TBJ
Neither, or
Both?

I'm guessing neither, but think TBJ has a better chance of getting his sh*t together than Coby by then.

[dougthonus]

I didn't realize Wendell is shooting 43% from 3 this year on a good volume. If he did that in Chicago, he would have had a lot more fans. If there were people here saying that Wendell is about to become an elite outside shooter then they should pat themselves on the back. I don't recall seeing that.

I don't have an issue with someone commenting that player X is having a bad game and being frustrated with it. Where it gets ridiculous is when a player who has been doing well has an off game and people want to dump him for it.

I said something like there's a fair chance both Carter and the #8 pick will be better than Vucevic in two years at the time of the trade, and I still think that. I've consistently said since we've made it that I would undo it and still feel that way now. Hope Vucevic proves me wrong. I do feel a lot better about the move after seeing the other moves we were able to make, a good part of my concern was it didn't get us close enough to do anything and now we are close enough. Vuc just needs to play well.

That said, I thought (and still do) that there were lots of signs that he simply isn't that good. Career low efficiency / volume guy that doesn't add much else. Sometimes those guys get better with better teammates and sometimes they get worse. So far, Vuc has been in that second camp, hopefully he moves into the first with more time.

[MrSparkle]

Vuc’s skill-set is so superior to Franz and Wendell, it’s not even close. We got a player with more gravity (inc. in FA). 2 years is a long time.

It’s a trade that made more than perfect sense for our looming cap situation and Zach’s age. Wendell and #8 are $12m against today’s cap, and he got that extension. I want no part of any of that, even if Wendell is shooting 43% from 3P. I believed he’d come around to his NBA role, but it’s still gonna be a while before he sniffs playoffs. He’s performing adequately on a zero-pressure tank job.

What I like about the Vuc pickup is expires in 2023 at 20m. First off, that is cheap for a starter who can score. But it’s also a convenient window to decide whether to extend him if we snag another over the cap move, ask him for a contender discount, or just explore FA and trade options with 20m coming off the books. If we’re already over the cap, a 20-25m 1y extension isn’t a big deal (assuming we’re good enough to retain the core).

The drag with Wendell and Franz is you are locked 4y into guys who don’t look like franchise stars. I never liked marrying young players like that unless they clearly could make the ASG or be top-2 options (which GarPax wrote a book on overpaying/locking in rich roleplayers). I remember being grumpy about signing Boozer to 5 instead of exploring Al Jefferson in a S&T, just be on the hook 2y or so of max salary - better player too, would’ve cost a protected frp but we had plenty of useless draft assets.

Individually, I can agree Vuc had some MIN Kevin Love pumped stats effect going. He looked genuinely overmatched by Embiid; felt like watching prime Shaq feast on post prime Vlade, if even.

But i still feel good about a PHI playoff rematch. No way Vuc plays like **** 4 games in a row, and no way the rest of the team gets slayed by Niang and Furkan.

Btw can we stop talking about Coby? Nothing more to say about the guy. He needs to be reevaluated in about a month. Otherwise, you can DNP him or send him to G League, but that does nothing for anybody other than confirm this guy may have his option waived sometime soon. Or you can wait and see if he has some hot nights and let him go for 20-30 points, like he demonstrated about 30 times in the last 2 years.

[coldfish]

I didn't realize Wendell is shooting 43% from 3 this year on a good volume. If he did that in Chicago, he would have had a lot more fans. If there were people here saying that Wendell is about to become an elite outside shooter then they should pat themselves on the back. I don't recall seeing that.

I don't have an issue with someone commenting that player X is having a bad game and being frustrated with it. Where it gets ridiculous is when a player who has been doing well has an off game and people want to dump him for it.

I said something like there's a fair chance both Carter and the #8 pick will be better than Vucevic in two years at the time of the trade, and I still think that. I've consistently said since we've made it that I would undo it and still feel that way now. Hope Vucevic proves me wrong. I do feel a lot better about the move after seeing the other moves we were able to make, a good part of my concern was it didn't get us close enough to do anything and now we are close enough. Vuc just needs to play well.

That said, I thought (and still do) that there were lots of signs that he simply isn't that good. Career low efficiency / volume guy that doesn't add much else. Sometimes those guys get better with better teammates and sometimes they get worse. So far, Vuc has been in that second camp, hopefully he moves into the first with more time.

IMO, the team locker room from last year needed to be completely flushed down the toilet. Wendell's mopey selfishness was a big part of that. Maybe being dumped got his head on straight. At this point, even if Vucevic never plays another game I would make that trade again because the Bulls are on the right path as opposed to being on the wrong path.

You and I don't see the same thing with Vuc and probably never will regarding his play. Now that Vuc apparently had a bad case of covid, its going to be a while again before we see anything out of him so you are going to continue to be frustrated about this trade for a while.

[DuckIII]

Debating the Vuc deal at this point is a dead topic. I hated the trade. But I think it’s pretty clear at this point that his presence was instrumental in acquiring Ball, DDR and possibly even Caruso. That makes it a good trade.

[PaKii94]

This was the guy bulls gave #2 touches to last year

Well that's what bad teams with top-10 picks tend to do.

That considered, I thought he was alright until that trade deadline came by and he seemed to sink to the pits. We were 14-16 after 30 games, and that was with good old Lauri playing in less than half of those (mostly losses when Lauri played, btw). Coby was scoring and spacing the floor pretty reliably; Zach and Thad were playing out their mind. There wasn't much more help on that roster. He declined hard when he went to the bench.

I had zero problems with feeding Coby, Wendell the ball and big minutes, seeing what they could (and mostly couldn't) do. It was very irritating waiting many years to conclude that Snell, Valentine and Lauri actually sucked.

That's where I disagree with you. From the beginning Coby at PG was a dead end. He provided his sporadic scoring but any time the game was close he was a walking TO machine. Add in his constant missing of easy plays/passes and we got the perfect recipe to drop winnable games. The team we had last year underperformed because of it.

[PaKii94]

I didn't realize Wendell is shooting 43% from 3 this year on a good volume. If he did that in Chicago, he would have had a lot more fans. If there were people here saying that Wendell is about to become an elite outside shooter then they should pat themselves on the back. I don't recall seeing that.

I don't have an issue with someone commenting that player X is having a bad game and being frustrated with it. Where it gets ridiculous is when a player who has been doing well has an off game and people want to dump him for it.

I said something like there's a fair chance both Carter and the #8 pick will be better than Vucevic in two years at the time of the trade, and I still think that. I've consistently said since we've made it that I would undo it and still feel that way now. Hope Vucevic proves me wrong. I do feel a lot better about the move after seeing the other moves we were able to make, a good part of my concern was it didn't get us close enough to do anything and now we are close enough. Vuc just needs to play well.

That said, I thought (and still do) that there were lots of signs that he simply isn't that good. Career low efficiency / volume guy that doesn't add much else. Sometimes those guys get better with better teammates and sometimes they get worse. So far, Vuc has been in that second camp, hopefully he moves into the first with more time.

I agree with you but in the moment I think it was the right trade. Sometimes you have to take a step back (vuc) to take two steps forward (Lonzo/DeRozan). I think the next step is to upgrade from Vuc after his contract is done (jokic/KAT)

[PaKii94]

I didn't realize Wendell is shooting 43% from 3 this year on a good volume. If he did that in Chicago, he would have had a lot more fans. If there were people here saying that Wendell is about to become an elite outside shooter then they should pat themselves on the back. I don't recall seeing that.

I don't have an issue with someone commenting that player X is having a bad game and being frustrated with it. Where it gets ridiculous is when a player who has been doing well has an off game and people want to dump him for it.

I said something like there's a fair chance both Carter and the #8 pick will be better than Vucevic in two years at the time of the trade, and I still think that. I've consistently said since we've made it that I would undo it and still feel that way now. Hope Vucevic proves me wrong. I do feel a lot better about the move after seeing the other moves we were able to make, a good part of my concern was it didn't get us close enough to do anything and now we are close enough. Vuc just needs to play well.

That said, I thought (and still do) that there were lots of signs that he simply isn't that good. Career low efficiency / volume guy that doesn't add much else. Sometimes those guys get better with better teammates and sometimes they get worse. So far, Vuc has been in that second camp, hopefully he moves into the first with more time.

IMO, the team locker room from last year needed to be completely flushed down the toilet. Wendell's mopey selfishness was a big part of that. Maybe being dumped got his head on straight. At this point, even if Vucevic never plays another game I would make that trade again because the Bulls are on the right path as opposed to being on the wrong path.

You and I don't see the same thing with Vuc and probably never will regarding his play. Now that Vuc apparently had a bad case of covid, its going to be a while again before we see anything out of him so you are going to continue to be frustrated about this trade for a while.

I really thought after the trade he'll be plugged into the Thad role which I thought would be a perfect upgrade. Idk why that was completely abandoned

[dougthonus]

IMO, the team locker room from last year needed to be completely flushed down the toilet. Wendell's mopey selfishness was a big part of that. Maybe being dumped got his head on straight.

I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.

At this point, even if Vucevic never plays another game I would make that trade again because the Bulls are on the right path as opposed to being on the wrong path.

The statement is ludicrous. I mean you could have just moved WCJ for draft assets and kept your picks and been a million times better off than you if Vuc never played another game.

You and I don't see the same thing with Vuc and probably never will regarding his play. Now that Vuc apparently had a bad case of covid, its going to be a while again before we see anything out of him so you are going to continue to be frustrated about this trade for a while.

Hopefully he recovers quickly.

I'm not frustrated by the trade that much. I wouldn't have done it, but I understand it. I was really just replying to your statement that (paraphrasing now) "no one saw WCJ coming" and saying that while I didn't say he was going to be an elite three point shooter, I did say I think he will still be very good.

My frustration with the trade is probably both a combination of being lower on Vuc than most people and higher on WCJ than most people while also generally being very averse to moving draft picks. It's the perfect storm for me to dislike this move.

Also, while you say you see great things about his play, to date the Bulls have a better record with him out against a tougher schedule than when he played and that's with him gone having to drop to replacement level players. Granted, we'd both agree he's played poorly so far. What he could do in theory, if playing well, should help the team quite a bit, and even though I don't think he's that great, I do believe he's much better than he's shown this year (which is a career worst for him by a good margin so far)

[sco]

IMO, the team locker room from last year needed to be completely flushed down the toilet. Wendell's mopey selfishness was a big part of that. Maybe being dumped got his head on straight.

I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.

At this point, even if Vucevic never plays another game I would make that trade again because the Bulls are on the right path as opposed to being on the wrong path.

The statement is ludicrous. I mean you could have just moved WCJ for draft assets and kept your picks and been a million times better off than you if Vuc never played another game.

You and I don't see the same thing with Vuc and probably never will regarding his play. Now that Vuc apparently had a bad case of covid, its going to be a while again before we see anything out of him so you are going to continue to be frustrated about this trade for a while.

Hopefully he recovers quickly.

I'm not frustrated by the trade that much. I wouldn't have done it, but I understand it. I was really just replying to your statement that (paraphrasing now) "no one saw WCJ coming" and saying that while I didn't say he was going to be an elite three point shooter, I did say I think he will still be very good.

My frustration with the trade is probably both a combination of being lower on Vuc than most people and higher on WCJ than most people while also generally being very averse to moving draft picks. It's the perfect storm for me to dislike this move.

Also, while you say you see great things about his play, to date the Bulls have a better record with him out against a tougher schedule than when he played and that's with him gone having to drop to replacement level players. Granted, we'd both agree he's played poorly so far. What he could do in theory, if playing well, should help the team quite a bit, and even though I don't think he's that great, I do believe he's much better than he's shown this year (which is a career worst for him by a good margin so far)

Not sure how this thread got stuck on the WC vs. Vuc topic. I'll say this on the deal. I think folks are debating between a group of players in which none of them are/will be elite.

[coldfish]

IMO, the team locker room from last year needed to be completely flushed down the toilet. Wendell's mopey selfishness was a big part of that. Maybe being dumped got his head on straight.

I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.

I'm not going to waste my time giving you links and quotes. His issues with the team were well documented here and discussed at length.

At this point, even if Vucevic never plays another game I would make that trade again because the Bulls are on the right path as opposed to being on the wrong path.

The statement is ludicrous. I mean you could have just moved WCJ for draft assets and kept your picks and been a million times better off than you if Vuc never played another game.

Nope. The Bulls were on the tank treadmill and had been so for years. The Vucevic move was what got the team off that treadmill which lead to Ball, Caruso and Derozan, all of which had other teams pursuing them.

I would gladly trade Wendell, Franz Wagner and a late 1st to get off that treadmill.

You and I don't see the same thing with Vuc and probably never will regarding his play. Now that Vuc apparently had a bad case of covid, its going to be a while again before we see anything out of him so you are going to continue to be frustrated about this trade for a while.

Hopefully he recovers quickly.

I'm not frustrated by the trade that much. I wouldn't have done it, but I understand it. I was really just replying to your statement that (paraphrasing now) "no one saw WCJ coming" and saying that while I didn't say he was going to be an elite three point shooter, I did say I think he will still be very good.

That's a strawman. I very specifically said "no one saw him becoming an elite outside shooter". If you did, quote yourself. We both know you didn't. Don't make my point something other than what it was.

I was a Wendell fan early in his career and I saw his potential but it was clear that the tank treadmill was destroying his attitude and derailing his career. As long as he stayed on Chicago in the environment that existed, he was never going to amount to much.

[dice]

IMO, the team locker room from last year needed to be completely flushed down the toilet. Wendell's mopey selfishness was a big part of that. Maybe being dumped got his head on straight.

I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.

I'm not going to waste my time giving you links and quotes. His issues with the team were well documented here and discussed at length.

you may be correct, but i must have missed all of those conversations

At this point, even if Vucevic never plays another game I would make that trade again because the Bulls are on the right path as opposed to being on the wrong path.

The statement is ludicrous. I mean you could have just moved WCJ for draft assets and kept your picks and been a million times better off than you if Vuc never played another game.

Nope. The Bulls were on the tank treadmill and had been so for years. The Vucevic move was what got the team off that treadmill which lead to Ball, Caruso and Derozan, all of which had other teams pursuing them.

you're presuming that the new additions chose chicago because of the specious "bulls have 2 all stars" argument rather than, i dunno, the bulls paying them more than other teams. it's not like the team was transformed after vuc got here last season

surely derozan had better prospective options to win a championship than coming to chicago. and winning probably isn't as high on ball/caruso's destination priority list at this stage in their careers

[DuckIII]

Dice, I realize the way this summer went did not go well with your theory no one would want to come play with Zach and Vuc, but they did. Ball pretty clearly had the Bulls ranked very highly considering he never allowed himself to even hit the market, and DDR has been very honest about the Bulls not being first but being near the top. As we know Vuc recruited him.

Also, I do remember some rumblings early last season about WCJ having some attitude issues. But I also recall it being something small and isolated that was seized on by the board and became a narrative.

Lastly, I’m not surprised by anything WCJ is doing in Orlando. This board was always wrong about him.

[coldfish]

I don't recall reading anything about WCJ having a bad attitude or being selfish. He may have needed a change of scenery but he very well may not have.

I'm not going to waste my time giving you links and quotes. His issues with the team were well documented here and discussed at length.

you may be correct, but i must have missed all of those conversations

The statement is ludicrous. I mean you could have just moved WCJ for draft assets and kept your picks and been a million times better off than you if Vuc never played another game.

Nope. The Bulls were on the tank treadmill and had been so for years. The Vucevic move was what got the team off that treadmill which lead to Ball, Caruso and Derozan, all of which had other teams pursuing them.

you're presuming that the new additions chose chicago because of the specious "bulls have 2 all stars" argument rather than, i dunno, the bulls paying them more than other teams. it's not like the team was transformed after vuc got here last season

surely derozan had better prospective options to win a championship than coming to chicago. and winning probably isn't as high on ball/caruso's destination priority list at this stage in their careers

Well Doug, you have dice in your corner.

[coldfish]

Dice, I realize the way this summer went did not go well with your theory no one would want to come play with Zach and Vuc, but they did. Ball pretty clearly had the Bulls ranked very highly considering he never allowed himself to even hit the market, and DDR has been very honest about the Bulls not being first but being near the top. As we know Vuc recruited him.

Also, I do remember some rumblings early last season about WCJ having some attitude issues. But I also recall it being something small and isolated that was seized on by the board and became a narrative.

Lastly, I’m not surprised by anything WCJ is doing in Orlando. This board was always wrong about him.

I agree with most of what you wrote but you are really not surprised about Wendell going from a 24% 3p shooter in Chicago to a 43% shooter in Orlando? Really? . . . . really?

[PaKii94]

Dice, I realize the way this summer went did not go well with your theory no one would want to come play with Zach and Vuc, but they did. Ball pretty clearly had the Bulls ranked very highly considering he never allowed himself to even hit the market, and DDR has been very honest about the Bulls not being first but being near the top. As we know Vuc recruited him.

Also, I do remember some rumblings early last season about WCJ having some attitude issues. But I also recall it being something small and isolated that was seized on by the board and became a narrative.

Lastly, I’m not surprised by anything WCJ is doing in Orlando. This board was always wrong about him.

I agree with most of what you wrote but you are really not surprised about Wendell going from a 24% 3p shooter in Chicago to a 43% shooter in Orlando? Really? . . . . really?

I would say it's a pleasant surprise he's become that shooter....but technically from the draft he was supposed to be a respectable shooter eventually. It was easy to see WCJ's all around game was out of wack last year (not just shooting) including rim protection, rebounding, basic moves etc. Seems like he's back on track

[dice]

Dice, I realize the way this summer went did not go well with your theory no one would want to come play with Zach and Vuc, but they did.

you're fantasizing. i never said that. i said that superstars would not be enthusiastic about coming to chicago to play with a mediocre bulls team led by zach lavine. superstars. you know, the guys that get paid the max and actually don't have to factor in finances other than possibly the nuisance of a sign and trade?

as good as derozan is, he's doesn't fit that bill. if you'd have asked me after last season whether derozan would consider signing a nice 3 year deal with the bulls, i'd have said "i dunno, probably"

Ball pretty clearly had the Bulls ranked very highly considering he never allowed himself to even hit the market

if you're one of those who thinks teams aren't talking to agents prior to the official open of free agency...that's cute. the vast majority of deals are made on the day free agency becomes official. not exactly enough time to be taking recruiting trips. artie just fouled up the timing

the guys that "hit the market" are the ones who haven't yet found a team that's willing to pay them what they want and are waiting for the dominoes to fall. which brings us to...

and DDR has been very honest about the Bulls not being first but being near the top.

that's, uh...not exactly an enthusiastic endorsement. who wouldn't say that the team that gave him 3/85 was his top choice after the fact?

day 2 signing

Also, I do remember some rumblings early last season about WCJ having some attitude issues. But I also recall it being something small and isolated that was seized on by the board and became a narrative.

i'll take your word for it. i wasn't paying a lot of attention to the minutae of last year's bulls team. i've already watched more bulls basketball this year than i did all of last year

[coldfish]

I obviously have been bashing the hell out of White. He really was playing terrible and quite frankly, he started out like that tonight. At some point during his second stint, it clicked and he started looking like an NBA player.

Hopefully he can build on this. Another perimeter scorer would really help. He will get a ton of wide open 3's.

[logical_art]

I obviously have been bashing the hell out of White. He really was playing terrible and quite frankly, he started out like that tonight. At some point during his second stint, it clicked and he started looking like an NBA player.

Hopefully he can build on this. Another perimeter scorer would really help. He will get a ton of wide open 3's.

He can also create a little bit on offense, which the second unit badly needs. He's a bad finisher, but he create some space and hit some step backs and midrange shots off the dribble. Hopefully there will come a point in the season where he and the second unit can compete offensively so Billy D won't have to play his two 30+ YO scores (DDR and Vuc) quite as many minutes. Coby will have to be a part of that.