Coby White discussion thread

[DuckIII]

Dice, I realize the way this summer went did not go well with your theory no one would want to come play with Zach and Vuc, but they did. Ball pretty clearly had the Bulls ranked very highly considering he never allowed himself to even hit the market, and DDR has been very honest about the Bulls not being first but being near the top. As we know Vuc recruited him.

Also, I do remember some rumblings early last season about WCJ having some attitude issues. But I also recall it being something small and isolated that was seized on by the board and became a narrative.

Lastly, I’m not surprised by anything WCJ is doing in Orlando. This board was always wrong about him.

I agree with most of what you wrote but you are really not surprised about Wendell going from a 24% 3p shooter in Chicago to a 43% shooter in Orlando? Really? . . . . really?

Well, sure with regard to that very specific statistic. But I’m not at all surprised that he became a good 3 pt shooter. He clearly had the form and competence. I always believed it would develop into part of his game.

WCJ is a good player. Gonna have a nice career. Orlando signed him to a very team friendly deal as well.

[DuckIII]

I obviously have been bashing the hell out of White. He really was playing terrible and quite frankly, he started out like that tonight. At some point during his second stint, it clicked and he started looking like an NBA player.

Hopefully he can build on this. Another perimeter scorer would really help. He will get a ton of wide open 3's.

He looked terrible again in the first half and it was really starting to burn my ass knowing Billy was going to keep playing him.

Then he looked awful again as he started playing in the 3rd. But at some point in the 3rd a little bounce appeared and some of the herky jerky showed up. And then he got hot on the catch and shoot. His 4th quarter was great and changed the game. Hopefully he’ll completely turn the corner soon.

[Michael Jackson]

I obviously have been bashing the hell out of White. He really was playing terrible and quite frankly, he started out like that tonight. At some point during his second stint, it clicked and he started looking like an NBA player.

Hopefully he can build on this. Another perimeter scorer would really help. He will get a ton of wide open 3's.

He looked terrible again in the first half and it was really starting to burn my ass knowing Billy was going to keep playing him.

Then he looked awful again as he started playing in the 3rd. But at some point in the 3rd a little bounce appeared and some of the herky jerky showed up. And then he got hot on the catch and shoot. His 4th quarter was great and changed the game. Hopefully he’ll completely turn the corner soon.

I think he will always fall into those moments where he looks putrid, the idea is that he minimizes those and looks like a NBA player more often than not. We don’t need 30ppg scoring from him, just clutch 3’s and fair to midland defense. Keep defenses honest is his greatest attribute.

[Rowland Garrett]

I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing...

That's a complete mischaracterization of the discussion. In another thread, we are talking about going for a title this year and all of the same people are discussing different options. With one or two exceptions, the board is ecstatic with the team and particularly AK.

Its an actual fact that Coby White has the lowest PER of all time for anyone who has played 30 minutes. He has a huge net negative rating. This is a continuation of what we saw last year where he was a huge problem.

Let's be honest, we were having this kind of discussion last year about Wendell, Lauri, etc. You know what happened? AK dumped them. I would not be surprised if AK and BD are having the same discussion privately about Coby that we are having here.

Let me answer this by saying my frustration was all the negativity about Coby in the game/post threads as well as here. Also the earlier negative stuff on Pat and Vuc played into it as well.

I was loving this team and these wins soooo much. The negative Bull fans stuff was flabbergasting to me.

Also I had has a few too many Vodka Highballs as well.

[MrSparkle]

Well, and this is why you don't send #7 picks to the G-League after 3 bad games.

Boy was it nice to get a 3rd shooter out there. Ayo and Caruso have basically had alternating bad shooting nights. When they're on the fire, the team is nearly unstoppable, but it's a 1:3 games kind of a thing. Coby is certainly a more confident 3P shooter if anything. Really hope he can boost that FG% this season. I have no problem icing Bradley when Vuc returns, and running this swarm of guards.

[kulaz3000]

I obviously have been bashing the hell out of White. He really was playing terrible and quite frankly, he started out like that tonight. At some point during his second stint, it clicked and he started looking like an NBA player.

Hopefully he can build on this. Another perimeter scorer would really help. He will get a ton of wide open 3's.

He looked terrible again in the first half and it was really starting to burn my ass knowing Billy was going to keep playing him.

Then he looked awful again as he started playing in the 3rd. But at some point in the 3rd a little bounce appeared and some of the herky jerky showed up. And then he got hot on the catch and shoot. His 4th quarter was great and changed the game. Hopefully he’ll completely turn the corner soon.

I think he will always fall into those moments where he looks putrid, the idea is that he minimizes those and looks like a NBA player more often than not. We don’t need 30ppg scoring from him, just clutch 3’s and fair to midland defense. Keep defenses honest is his greatest attribute.

Yeah, even in his best days, he has always been a streaky shooter, and being that he doesn't bring much on defense, when his shot isn't falling it's going to feel like he is invisible out there. However, provided he gets his shot falling to a certain degree, even when he isn't having the best game, if he can garner some defensive attention, that in itself would be huge for Zach and DeRozan to get to work.

That all being said, I commend Billy for sticking with him - just look at the boards, many of us despite preaching patience, wanted him to be relegated to the G-league until he got more confidence, but Billy stuck with him and Coby basically won us a game. As a young player, having your head coach believe in you is massive, but in addition to that, you can tell that his teammates were rooting for him just by how they reacted to his game, so it's clear as day he has been working his tail off to get back out on the floor.

I still do think that AK and Billy have quietly had conversations about getting him minutes, to bring his confidence and game back to a valuable level, so by the time trades are possible, he can be used as a trading piece. I think he won't be a Bull by the upcoming trade deadline, that's my guess.

[boozapalooza]

Dice, I realize the way this summer went did not go well with your theory no one would want to come play with Zach and Vuc, but they did. Ball pretty clearly had the Bulls ranked very highly considering he never allowed himself to even hit the market, and DDR has been very honest about the Bulls not being first but being near the top. As we know Vuc recruited him.

Also, I do remember some rumblings early last season about WCJ having some attitude issues. But I also recall it being something small and isolated that was seized on by the board and became a narrative.

Lastly, I’m not surprised by anything WCJ is doing in Orlando. This board was always wrong about him.

I agree with most of what you wrote but you are really not surprised about Wendell going from a 24% 3p shooter in Chicago to a 43% shooter in Orlando? Really? . . . . really?

Well, sure with regard to that very specific statistic. But I’m not at all surprised that he became a good 3 pt shooter. He clearly had the form and competence. I always believed it would develop into part of his game.

WCJ is a good player. Gonna have a nice career. Orlando signed him to a very team friendly deal as well.

WCJ will have a nice career because hes a decent player. Good enough to find minutes on bad teams. But he’s never going to be a difference making player in the league. Never has contributed to winning basketball and never will (as a starter). I was thrilled the second we traded him away.

Not directed at you, but just generally, I don’t care how good Franz Wagner ends up being with the #8 pick we gave Orlando. Moving on from WCJ and swinging for a star level, impact player in Vuc was always the right decision.

[Rowland Garrett]

I quoted Coldfish once. So I'll do it again, but this is from the Denver Post Game Thread.

Painful game.
- Nuggets had a lot of people hitting difficult or shots they normally don't make. Really kept them in it.
- Caruso shot terrible and passed up several open looks. Great defense but not his best night.
- Coby was just freaking awful. His box score doesn't do it justice. Denver had their end of bench guys in and Chicago couldn't get separation because Coby wouldn't allow it. His defense continues to be atrocious but his decision making on offense sucks balls too.

Zach and Demar though. This is why stars are stars. The Bulls are going to be a tough out in the playoffs because these guys can score so well in a grinder of a game.

Fun fact: 3 J. Greens played in this game.

Good points. I just want to say this concerning Coby.

What you said was true. But what I liked was he was not being a timid kitten for the first time, and that is good. I felt they kept him in to help him get up to speed, The rust is still there. I think his time was productive with the long term in mind. He will settle down and I think we will see the Coby from the final games last season where he is fearless yet meditating his mantra of "Do not turn it over."

He was playing hard, but hurting them. But that will change.

I think the start of the game was similar with Tony Bradley. They were emphasizing him too much but it was to boost his confidence. Even though it was detrimental to the team I hope it pays off.

My point then, and now is: AK and company are on a roll and the Gar/Pax attitude needs to go. They know what they are doing...PERIOD!

First of all, the Patrick Williams hate. The dude was hurt prior to preseason, He came out timid. (Shocking for a 19 year old.) It's going to take time for him, but the game he got injured was showing baby steps. My take: Billy Donovan was doing it right.

When he gets back, if he plays this year, expect lots of struggles. But he will be a key player next year and going forward.

Then the Vucevic hate. His shooting was off. He even said he always starts off slow with his shooting. But the fact after 8 or 10 shots he didn't get red hot made many Bulls fans circle the wagons calling for his head on a pike. They stuck with him and he was rounding into form right when he got sick. That's not even counting all the little things he did which are evident now. My take: Billy Donovan was doing it right.

Just don't expect Vuc to be killing it the minute he steps on the floor. Hopefully Monday.

As I said about Coby above, well, key player in a hard fought WIN. My take: Billy Donovan was doing it right.

Trust Billy Donovan and Arturas Karnisovas. Enjoy. This supposed to be fun, and it really is.

[sco]

If Coby can just run around screens and make 3's, I'm fine with him out there. That said, I still think he'd benefit from a handful of g-league games where he can find his rhythm and cardio again. Also, his defense remains bad, but I don't think that it is fixable in the g-league or anywhere. I can live with that if he'd just stop fouling 3pt shooters. It is so bad, it almost seems intentional.

[Ice Man]

Also, his defense remains bad.

It is, but it's no longer so damaging, because he is generally surrounded by at least two of Ball, Caruso, Ayo, Green, and Jones. When you have 2 or 3 wolves out there, you can partially hide the sheep.

We now thoroughly know who Coby is. No more PG fantasies, or hopes that he will become a legit two-way player. He is a scorer, plain and simple. But potentially a very good one. He's more than a shooter, he can drive and make plays near the basket. I like him quite a bit as long as he is used appropriately.

[sco]

Also, his defense remains bad.

It is, but it's no longer so damaging, because he is generally surrounded by at least two of Ball, Caruso, Ayo, Green, and Jones. When you have 2 or 3 wolves out there, you can partially hide the sheep.

We now thoroughly know who Coby is. No more PG fantasies, or hopes that he will become a legit two-way player. He is a scorer, plain and simple. But potentially a very good one. He's more than a shooter, he can drive and make plays near the basket. I like him quite a bit as long as he is used appropriately.

I agree.

[dabig3]

Coby looked good in the 4th quarter there after a torrid previous 3 quarters. Reminded me a little of Vuc's corner turning before covid interrupted things.

Hopefully Coby can just focus on shooting and picking his spots so the Bulls can finally have a consistent scoring option off the bench. That will only lessen the load on all the starters. And with an easier schedule the rest of the way, I don't see why the team couldn't challenge for the 1 seed if everyone starts clicking on all cylinders.

And his trade value only goes up with every good game

Slightly joking there. I'm fine with keeping Coby this season and seeing how he progresses on a championship level contending team. But if there's a sensible trade down the line for a potential starter at the 4 and maybe another bench piece, then the Bulls might want to go for it.

[StunnerKO]

Coby said he hasn’t played in 6 months

[PlayerUp]

Dice, I realize the way this summer went did not go well with your theory no one would want to come play with Zach and Vuc, but they did. Ball pretty clearly had the Bulls ranked very highly considering he never allowed himself to even hit the market, and DDR has been very honest about the Bulls not being first but being near the top. As we know Vuc recruited him.

Also, I do remember some rumblings early last season about WCJ having some attitude issues. But I also recall it being something small and isolated that was seized on by the board and became a narrative.

Lastly, I’m not surprised by anything WCJ is doing in Orlando. This board was always wrong about him.

I agree with most of what you wrote but you are really not surprised about Wendell going from a 24% 3p shooter in Chicago to a 43% shooter in Orlando? Really? . . . . really?

Well, sure with regard to that very specific statistic. But I’m not at all surprised that he became a good 3 pt shooter. He clearly had the form and competence. I always believed it would develop into part of his game.

WCJ is a good player. Gonna have a nice career. Orlando signed him to a very team friendly deal as well.

WCJ is playing better now in Orlando and that's good for him. There were brief periods he was playing well in Chicago. Same with Kris Dunn. Same with Otto Porter. The problem is can he stay healthy? Seems he is always plagued with injuries. We'll see how this plays out longterm.

[PlayerUp]

Coby said he hasn’t played in 6 months

We are judging him way too prematurely here just like many did with DeMar DeRozan before the season even started. It's November. We should have a good idea where he is at by January.

[GoBlue72391]

That's a complete mischaracterization of the discussion. In another thread, we are talking about going for a title this year and all of the same people are discussing different options. With one or two exceptions, the board is ecstatic with the team and particularly AK.

Its an actual fact that Coby White has the lowest PER of all time for anyone who has played 30 minutes. He has a huge net negative rating. This is a continuation of what we saw last year where he was a huge problem.

Let's be honest, we were having this kind of discussion last year about Wendell, Lauri, etc. You know what happened? AK dumped them. I would not be surprised if AK and BD are having the same discussion privately about Coby that we are having here.

Ive seen things go from Vuc needs to be traded and start Bradley to Vuc is our most important player. Ive also seen people talking about how badly the Bulls need White to now the Bulls need to send him to the G league. When Zach would miss a few shots people were wanting him to have surgery or have BD bench him. This board has most definitely not been "ecstatic" this year. Its more chicken little's.

Nah.

The homers on this board just hate it when people discuss what is going on in the present.

Vuc was playing terrible at points early on. Realistically, I can't say that Chicago has missed Vucevic that much because he really was hurting the team on offense frequently. And I'm a huge Vucevic fan, supported the trade and think he will be a long term asset.

Zach did have a few bad games after he had his hand wrapped.

The homers on this board just project too much effectively automatically creating strawman arguments. For the most part, these homers have been fantastically wrong over the past year as they were the ones defending Lauri, Wendell, etc as AK was figuring out how to dump them. They are functionally broken clocks saying "everything is fine" all of the time and when it turns out they are right, they pat themselves on the back despite their terrible track record.

Side note: The negative nancies (and we know who they are) who think everything is terrible no matter what, have been even MORE wrong.

For the overzealous fans, any kind of criticism or analysis beyond merely saying everything is sunshine and rainbows is considered hating, pessimistic, doom and gloom, and in my opinion is just as bad as those who truly are overly doom and gloom, just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Discussing the flaws, weak points, and underachieving players of this team is completely valid, even if those problems eventually get resolved. It might be shocking, but this team is not perfect so there's no point in pretending it is. Vuch was dragging ass as a scorer before he caught COVID (even though he was contributing with his rebounding, passing, etc.). Coby has been a complete negative up to the Knicks game.

These things need to be talked about.

[GoBlue72391]

Nah.

The homers on this board just hate it when people discuss what is going on in the present.

Vuc was playing terrible at points early on. Realistically, I can't say that Chicago has missed Vucevic that much because he really was hurting the team on offense frequently. And I'm a huge Vucevic fan, supported the trade and think he will be a long term asset.

Zach did have a few bad games after he had his hand wrapped.

The homers on this board just project too much effectively automatically creating strawman arguments. For the most part, these homers have been fantastically wrong over the past year as they were the ones defending Lauri, Wendell, etc as AK was figuring out how to dump them. They are functionally broken clocks saying "everything is fine" all of the time and when it turns out they are right, they pat themselves on the back despite their terrible track record.

Side note: The negative nancies (and we know who they are) who think everything is terrible no matter what, have been even MORE wrong.

IDK if i would call the people who wanted Vuc benched and traded homers. He was not playing terrible. He was shooting terrible. Basketball is more then just putting the ball in the bucket, as you can see with Caruso Lavine was not playing bad for a few games. he has scored 25+ points in pretty much every game this year. People just need to stop living play to play. He is an MVP candidate for a reason. You could also make a case for Lauri and Wendell last year. Sure it got to a point you needed to move on. But its not like it was all projection or hope with them. WCJ is already showing in Orlando what most Bulls fans projected him to be. But even at that projection Vuc is better. So it was a good trade to make. It would be much better if fans could kind of have a smarter take on things but being a fan is emotional so i cant say i 100% blame them for being that way. Just is what it is.

I didn't realize Wendell is shooting 43% from 3 this year on a good volume. If he did that in Chicago, he would have had a lot more fans. If there were people here saying that Wendell is about to become an elite outside shooter then they should pat themselves on the back. I don't recall seeing that.

I don't have an issue with someone commenting that player X is having a bad game and being frustrated with it. Where it gets ridiculous is when a player who has been doing well has an off game and people want to dump him for it.

It's still early enough in the season that WCJ's 3-point shooting could be a fluke or an outlier.

I haven't watched any Magic games this season so maybe he improved his form or whatever, but I honestly would have been surprised if he ever became a 35% shooter on low to medium volume. It seems like I'm going to be wrong on that take, but I'll still need to see him shoot like this over the course of an entire season plus before I can believe his shooting improvements are real.

On the opposite side of things, he started last season shooting the 3 to an absolute awful extent, and while I didn't think he was a good shooter, I knew he wasn't that bad, so this could just be the inverse of that. On the whole though, I do believe he's improved his shooting, but has he improved it enough that he's actually a 40%+ shooter? I guess we'll see. That would be incredibly impressive if he is, even if most or all of his 3s are of the catch and shoot variety (I'm assuming).

[GoBlue72391]

So who do folks think will be in our rotation in a month?

Coby
TBJ
Neither, or
Both?

I'm guessing neither, but think TBJ has a better chance of getting his sh*t together than Coby by then.

I was high on TBJ heading into this season and I still think he has an intriguing skillset as a 3&D wing with some length, athleticism, and playmaking ability, but it looks like he's got his work cut out for him if he wants to get minutes. I think he's in an even deeper hole than Alize, who should be able to be plug n' played on a situational basis whenever we need more rebounding.

Not so for TBJ. Now that Coby is showing signs of life and Ayo keeps playing well, I think his road back to the rotation will be even tougher and I wouldn't be surprised if we trade him for frontcourt help at some point.

[GoBlue72391]

Dice, I realize the way this summer went did not go well with your theory no one would want to come play with Zach and Vuc, but they did. Ball pretty clearly had the Bulls ranked very highly considering he never allowed himself to even hit the market, and DDR has been very honest about the Bulls not being first but being near the top. As we know Vuc recruited him.

Also, I do remember some rumblings early last season about WCJ having some attitude issues. But I also recall it being something small and isolated that was seized on by the board and became a narrative.

Lastly, I’m not surprised by anything WCJ is doing in Orlando. This board was always wrong about him.

I agree with most of what you wrote but you are really not surprised about Wendell going from a 24% 3p shooter in Chicago to a 43% shooter in Orlando? Really? . . . . really?

I would say it's a pleasant surprise he's become that shooter....but technically from the draft he was supposed to be a respectable shooter eventually. It was easy to see WCJ's all around game was out of wack last year (not just shooting) including rim protection, rebounding, basic moves etc. Seems like he's back on track

His complete lack of rim protection and underwhelming defense was the biggest surprise for me in regards to WCJ. The shooting and playmaking stuff he was supposed to have coming into the league always seemed a little too good to be true, but I thought for sure he would be able to hang his hat on defense, rim protection, and rebounding.

To his credit, he's always been a very good rebounder, but his defensive issues seem to have carried over to Orlando (at least in terms of blocks). I admit I haven't watched any Magic games, so maybe he is a good defender now and is protecting the rim by disrupting shots with his length rather than blocking them outright, but the memory of him getting bullied by star and scrub bigmen alike (hello Tony Bradley) are still fresh in my mind. And yes, I know our guards' awful point of attack defense exacerbated WCJ's defensive issues last season so it wasn't entirely his fault, but still.

[GoBlue72391]

I have never been so disappointed in this board.

I trust AK and BD. I love where we are. If I were to take the general consensus of you negative folks, this roster needs to be scrapped, BD, AK and Co. need to be fired. AND that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Have a little faith they know what they are doing...

That's a complete mischaracterization of the discussion. In another thread, we are talking about going for a title this year and all of the same people are discussing different options. With one or two exceptions, the board is ecstatic with the team and particularly AK.

Its an actual fact that Coby White has the lowest PER of all time for anyone who has played 30 minutes. He has a huge net negative rating. This is a continuation of what we saw last year where he was a huge problem.

Let's be honest, we were having this kind of discussion last year about Wendell, Lauri, etc. You know what happened? AK dumped them. I would not be surprised if AK and BD are having the same discussion privately about Coby that we are having here.

Let me answer this by saying my frustration was all the negativity about Coby in the game/post threads as well as here. Also the earlier negative stuff on Pat and Vuc played into it as well.

I was loving this team and these wins soooo much. The negative Bull fans stuff was flabbergasting to me.

Also I had has a few too many Vodka Highballs as well.

When players play poorly, they will be a main topic of discussion, even when they have excuses for their poor play. I really don't understand how this is somehow controversial in any way.

People can be fully capable of being high on the team as a whole while simultaneously being down on specific players. The two are not contradictory in any way.