Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped

[spree8]

aint nobody reading all that

U know u did

[god shammgod]

aint nobody reading all that

U know u did

it wasn't just you. there was like 3 long lists in a row. i had to tap out

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I think another thing that needs to be said is that the team is not fun to watch until the bench comes in. There's no pace, no beautiful ball movement, few lobs, it's just amazing how boring the first unit is.

[DOT]

I think another thing that needs to be said is that the team is not fun to watch until the bench comes in. There's no pace, no beautiful ball movement, few lobs, it's just amazing how boring the first unit is.

I don't have numbers for starters vs bench, but we're 8th worst in apg, and 2nd worst in potential apg. 6th worst at points scored off assists per game, and we make the 10th least passes per game

Meaning we're pretty decent at converting potential assists into points, but we don't make many meaningful passes per game. And while we are passing a decent amount, most of that isn't leading to much

But that's Thibs. The offensive system is just letting guys do whatever and hoping their talent is enough to carry the team.

[FutureKnicksGM]

Which of the top 5 picks are going to be #1 guys on a contender? 3 of them currently shoot worse than rookie Kevin Knox.

Accurate screen name if you can't see the talent those 5 players have.

Yeah I mean there are like 5 rookies ever who looked like #1 guys in month 2, Shaq, Kareem, LeFlop, Magic and Bird. None of the players on our roster are the #1 or 2 guys on a contender so why wouldn't you take a chance on Jalen Green or whoever.

Luka, Zion, Jah all looked like future stars right off the bat. At the very least if your crying about not tanking for these guys, they at least better be superior players than our all nba second team all star. If Jalen taps out as a Zach Lavine level player, did we miss out on him leading us to a championship?

[nedleeds]

Accurate screen name if you can't see the talent those 5 players have.

Yeah I mean there are like 5 rookies ever who looked like #1 guys in month 2, Shaq, Kareem, LeFlop, Magic and Bird. None of the players on our roster are the #1 or 2 guys on a contender so why wouldn't you take a chance on Jalen Green or whoever.

Luka, Zion, Jah all looked like future stars right off the bat. At the very least if your crying about not tanking for these guys, they at least better be superior players than our all nba second team all star. If Jalen taps out as a Zach Lavine level player, did we miss out on him leading us to a championship?

Who cares? We never give ourselves the chance. That's my problem.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Zach Lavine is averaging 27, 6, 4 on 62% TS, imagine thinking anything we have is even approaching that level, or that Jalen Green reaching that level is a bad thing.

Some of you are really out of touch.

[Rasho Brezec]

Tank, play rooks, collect draft picks has been the solution we've been avoiding since RealGM existed.

[prophet_of_rage]

Tank, play rooks, collect draft picks has been the solution we've been avoiding since RealGM existed.

We were tanking during the Fizdale era playing Knox ridiculous minutes and the fans chanted at Dolan sell the team. NY couldn't handle it.

So here we are. We sellout so Dolan is happy. No need to actually win we make money. That's our franchise's goal.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[Besart19]

You didnt like the idea of adding Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony and a veteran SG like Derozan or Beal

CP3 - It was not even on the table. He would rather stay in Phoenix, a top5 team in the league. Besides, it's a really risky deal getting a 36-year player in a 120/4 deal. You need to be sure you are a Top contender.

Melo - First, we don't need a PF. We already have Randle and Obi. His offense is amazing but his defense is a great concern. Besides, he is not reliable due to his age. He would be a great option if we did not have cap space and needed a PF.

Rozan - He is still not too old and he always was a healthy athlete. He looks great around shooters like Lonzo, Lavine, and Vuc. He would not be so good around unreliable shooters like RJ and Randle. But I would have liked the signing.

Before he went in Pheo

[spree8]

Tank, play rooks, collect draft picks has been the solution we've been avoiding since RealGM existed.

We were tanking during the Fizdale era playing Knox ridiculous minutes and the fans chanted at Dolan sell the team. NY couldn't handle it.

So here we are. We sellout so Dolan is happy. No need to actually win we make money. That's our franchise's goal.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

Cuz Knox is ass. If we tanked properly for a higher pick and drafted Luka or Trae… I doubt people would be chanting that. That’s been my point… we never really go all in on the tank for the superstars. 2019 is the exception tho, we just had bad luck as usual dropping to #3.

[Richard4444]

You didnt like the idea of adding Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony and a veteran SG like Derozan or Beal

CP3 - It was not even on the table. He would rather stay in Phoenix, a top5 team in the league. Besides, it's a really risky deal getting a 36-year player in a 120/4 deal. You need to be sure you are a Top contender.

Melo - First, we don't need a PF. We already have Randle and Obi. His offense is amazing but his defense is a great concern. Besides, he is not reliable due to his age. He would be a great option if we did not have cap space and needed a PF.

Rozan - He is still not too old and he always was a healthy athlete. He looks great around shooters like Lonzo, Lavine, and Vuc. He would not be so good around unreliable shooters like RJ and Randle. But I would have liked the signing.

Before he went in Pheo

Worse!!
First, we were the 6th worse team in the previous season. We would not have been a title contender even with CP3 in the roster. We were supposed to tank last season. And CP3 would disrupt the tanking. We were not expected to hit the #4 seed.

Second, we would have to give assets to trade for CP3 who cost The Suns: 2 positive contracts Oubre (gave 3SRPs to OKC in the GSW trade) and Rubio (gave 1 SRP to OKC in Wolves trade), and 2 young players Jerome (#24 in 2019 draft) and Lecque.

Third, in the majority of the trade mocks, we would have given Randle for CP3.

Forth, CP3 would have left us this season. We thought he would not be crazy to give up his 40M+ player option but he did. IMO, he would have signed with a title contender unless we offered him a long-term deal around 120/4.

[Mister Ed]

Tanking historically doesn’t work in getting you to a championship - and the lottery was even tweaked a little in 2019 to make it harder for tankers. The draft is all about luck and creativity - try to move up with smart trades, sometimes ballsy trades, not ripping your team apart. And of course getting that franchise player outside the top 8 picks. The only thing that works with tanking is having a **** team that no one wants to play for.

[WargamesX]

I said this the moment they hired Thibs and we are now here….

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

But... but.... isn't being a mediocre treadmill team a big improvement for the Knicks?

[FutureKnicksGM]

Yeah I mean there are like 5 rookies ever who looked like #1 guys in month 2, Shaq, Kareem, LeFlop, Magic and Bird. None of the players on our roster are the #1 or 2 guys on a contender so why wouldn't you take a chance on Jalen Green or whoever.

Luka, Zion, Jah all looked like future stars right off the bat. At the very least if your crying about not tanking for these guys, they at least better be superior players than our all nba second team all star. If Jalen taps out as a Zach Lavine level player, did we miss out on him leading us to a championship?

Who cares? We never give ourselves the chance. That's my problem.

Those level players are not in every draft. If they were, we would have found a star the last time we tanked - instead we got RJ. There is no chance missed out on, if those players are literally not in draft.

[E-Balla]

Luka, Zion, Jah all looked like future stars right off the bat. At the very least if your crying about not tanking for these guys, they at least better be superior players than our all nba second team all star. If Jalen taps out as a Zach Lavine level player, did we miss out on him leading us to a championship?

Who cares? We never give ourselves the chance. That's my problem.

Those level players are not in every draft. If they were, we would have found a star the last time we tanked - instead we got RJ. There is no chance missed out on, if those players are literally not in draft.

Exactly. We would've failed to develop whoever we got by continuing to tank too. The day of day one rookie greatness seem to be beyond us other than in cases of the exceptional like Zion, Trae, and Luka. And you can always get one of those players when they force a move on their second contract. Brooklyn is proof we'd be a FA destination with any other FO in the league because they're not a good FO and they're a major FA destination.

[E-Balla]

Nobody is saying it has to be top 5 every year. There’s deeper drafts than others, but at least being in the top 5 gets you in position to choose whoever you want out of the crop.

That list isn’t compiled of real MVP’s man. Here’s a more legit list:


Jordan- 3rd
Lebron- 1st
Shaq- 1st
Kareem- 1st
Duncan- 1st
Magic- 1st
Bird- 6th
Wilt- 3rd
Russell- 2nd
Hakeem- 1st
Durant- 2nd
Steph- 7th
West- 2nd
Oscar- 1st
Garnett- 5th
DRob- 1st
Wade- 5th
Ewing- 1st
Barkley- 5th
Harden- 3rd
Pippen- 5th
Frazier- 5th
Isiah- 2nd
Cp3- 4th
McHale- 3rd
Kidd- 1st
Payton- 2nd
Ray- 5th
GHill- 3rd
Penny- 3rd
Worthy- 1st
Barry- 4th
Dwight- 1st
Embiid- 3rd
Gasol- 3rd
Walton- 1st
ADavis- 1st
McAdoo- 2nd
Iverson- 1st
Pearl- 2nd
Kyrie- 1st
Wilkins- 6th
Pistol Pete- 3rd
Cousy- 4th
Bing- 2nd
Pettit- 2nd
Arizin- 3rd
Cowens- 4th
Melo- 3rd
Dominique- 3rd
Westbrook- 4th
Lillard- 6th
Bosh- 4th
Webber- 1st
Vince- 5th
Luka- 3rd

————————

Out of the 55-60 above of the greatest of all time, there’s only like 3-4 picked 6th and 1 picked 7th. Some All-Time greats outside of that… but not nearly close to the above.


McGrady- 9th
Dirk- 9th
Pierce- 10th
Kobe- 13th
Mailman- 13th
Drexler- 14th
Giannis- 15th
Kawhi- 15th
Nash- 15th
Stockton- 16th



It really is optimal to get a top pick in the draft to increase your odds of picking who you want (hoping your scouting team did well) even if you wanna do something like Boston did with Tatum and grab your guy a little earlier because your team is sure he’s a star. It’s better to do that than to have your guy taken right before you further down like with Steph.

It's a different era. Players being taken later are performing better and players going early have been more flat than usual.

Historically when you used to see players for years in college it was a lot easier to sus out who was the real deal. Most of those dudes hit the league finished products. Nowadays everyone hits the league young and completely unprepared for NBA basketball and they develop while in the league.

2012 we had a decently top heavy draft and Draymond and Khris Middleton are still 2 of the top 5 players despite being 2nd round picks. Both guys took a while to develop with Middleton making his first all star at 27 and Draymond at 25.

2013 had only 2 of the top 8 players in the draft go top 10 with the rest of the players coming in the late 20s or the mid first round. Giannis took 4 years to be an all star, CJ was trash for 2 years before starting finally at 24, Gobert was 24 before he averaged a double double and 27 before he was an all star, and Dipo didn't become an all star until he was 25 and on his 2nd contract.

2014 only Embiid was a hit in the top 5, Randle is top 10 and an all star. Both guys took a while to develop with Embiid literally sitting out 2 years and Randle not becoming an All Star until the end of his 2nd contract. Lavine also only became an all star at 25 on his 2nd contract.

2015 is a conventional draft where the best player isn't a top pick (Booker) but the other All Stars in the draft are early picks.

2016 had a top 3 that all became all stars. Simmons was an All Star young, it took both JB and Ingram until contract 2 to become all stars. Under that the best players are all picked later and took a while to develop. Sabonis, Siakam, and Brogdon all developed at the very end of their rookie deals.

I can keep going but the point is that with 21 young players in a 5 year period we should be able to find one star. It's on us whether we keep them or ship them out before they have a chance to develop.

When teams like the Warriors got their superstar in the top of the draft and drafted the rest of their core, and then used trades/free agency (Iggy/KD), it’s a textbook way to build a team the right way. The Bulls drafted MJ n Pippen. Celtics drafted Bird n McHale. Lakers drafted Magic n Worthy, then Kobe and signed Shaq. Miami drafted Wade n then traded for Shaq who wanted to come play with Wade… drafting a superstar in Wade is also why Lebron n Bosh came. Spurs drafted Duncan n DRob then Manu, Kawhi, n Tony. The list goes on, but a lot of dynasties n title teams are built thru it. Yes there’s other ways, but the top of the draft is clearly the best way to land your 1st superstar.

You're naming a lot of old teams from before the current lottery odds, before one and done, or anything close to this era. The draft has never been as unreliable as it currently is.

This has been going on since we traded Ewing… one n done, new lotto odds, etc are no excuse for 20+ years of never truly trying this route.

I know times have changed n all, so current day it may be a bit different, but it’s still a reliable method. We just somehow always seem to fuq it up and end up right outside where we should’ve been by not fully committing to a rebuild.


02’ we pass on Amare and trade the pick for McDyess.

We were garbage in 03’… with a historic class, I remember being heated for still not embracing the rebuild n going full throttle to the top of the lotto… instead we ended up just outside of it and drafted Mike Sweetney.

05’ we traded our soul for Marbury the previous year and we ended up still being hot garbage because we had nothing outside of him… genius plan. We land the 8th pick… just 4 spots away from Cp3.

Same in 08’ with Steph… hiring a coach like D’Antoni at that point was premature. The wins he got us cost us a top player of all time.

15’ we lost a coin flip to Minny who got Towns… the 2 out of 3 meaningless wins we just had to get at the very end of the season instead of pulling the plug and securing that #1 spot… oh joy.

20’ fired a coach who was a perfect tank commander and promoted his assistant who ended up having twice the win record… lost a chance at LaMelo or Edwards there (looking at the records of the teams who landed them).

21’ We hire Thibs during a year we should’ve kept rebuilding.. surely that cost us a top pick in this draft. I’d say that’s more important than securing a coach like Thibs who is far from perfect.


Can’t forget all the years we traded our picks for trash only for them to land at the top of the lotto and get other teams perennial All-Stars and DPOY’s.

We’ve been so close to landing what we needed so many times, yet bad luck or whatever you wanna call it, has reared its ugly head and ruined it.


Regarding listing old teams that have won titles by getting their first superstar via the draft….

Warriors- drafted Steph 7th, then Klay n Dray

Cavs- drafted Kyrie #1, signed Lebron who they drafted initially @ #1, and traded their #1 pick for the 3rd star

Spurs- drafted Duncan #1, Kawhi 15th, DRob #1

Heat- drafted Wade #5, without him, Shaq, Lebron, and Bosh would’ve never came.


Mavs, Lakers, and Celtics all drafted Dirk (9th-foreign players weren’t looked at the same), Kobe (13th- high school), and Pierce (10th-projected higher) outside of the top of the lotto, but the point is that these franchises got their superstars in the draft (still near the top, and could’ve went higher if not for the times/era) and the rest followed.

The teams listed above are like 95% of the championship teams in the last 20 years.

It’s rare you get a superstar to come to an empty team. Lebron to LA doesn’t happen every day. The draft is far more likely to get you what you need.

You said Steph at 7 then Klay and Dray like Klay and Dray weren't later picks. Neither guy was top 10 iirc.

Cleveland also got LeBron in the FA and traded for Kevin Love their 3rd star.

With star movement maximized in the league the best position to be in is to have a lot of young assets you can trade, an overachieving coach, and a bunch of decent role players. Basically do what the Clippers and Nets did.

[nedleeds]

Luka, Zion, Jah all looked like future stars right off the bat. At the very least if your crying about not tanking for these guys, they at least better be superior players than our all nba second team all star. If Jalen taps out as a Zach Lavine level player, did we miss out on him leading us to a championship?

Who cares? We never give ourselves the chance. That's my problem.

Those level players are not in every draft. If they were, we would have found a star the last time we tanked - instead we got RJ. There is no chance missed out on, if those players are literally not in draft.

That's not the point. It's about maximizing your opportunities. We got RJ because of bad lottery ball luck.

We had a 14% chance to get the #1 pick, Pelicans had a 6% chance Grizzlies as well. Jesus hates the Knicks and we got 3rd. That is a discrete event with no probability on getting **** the next year. Unless the NBA is actually undermining us. I doubt it, as Zion in New York would have meant infinite dollars for the league.

Keep having the best chance to get the best pick and hope the consensus best player is the best player. Even **** like Phoenix who **** incinerated top 5 picks eventually picked 3 finals level starters Booker, Ayton and Bridges. But they totally botched way more than they got right:

Alex Len #5
They paid to get rid of TJ Warren
Traded Boggie for Luis Scolas wrinkled scrotum
Dargon Bender #4
Josh Jackson and his bong #4

5 high drafts resulting in literally nothing.

But the Knicks don't have that kind of patience so we shortcut the tank every god damn time because we think KP is a top 10 player, or RJ is a good player, or Randle is a top 25 player.

[spree8]

It's a different era. Players being taken later are performing better and players going early have been more flat than usual.

Historically when you used to see players for years in college it was a lot easier to sus out who was the real deal. Most of those dudes hit the league finished products. Nowadays everyone hits the league young and completely unprepared for NBA basketball and they develop while in the league.

2012 we had a decently top heavy draft and Draymond and Khris Middleton are still 2 of the top 5 players despite being 2nd round picks. Both guys took a while to develop with Middleton making his first all star at 27 and Draymond at 25.

2013 had only 2 of the top 8 players in the draft go top 10 with the rest of the players coming in the late 20s or the mid first round. Giannis took 4 years to be an all star, CJ was trash for 2 years before starting finally at 24, Gobert was 24 before he averaged a double double and 27 before he was an all star, and Dipo didn't become an all star until he was 25 and on his 2nd contract.

2014 only Embiid was a hit in the top 5, Randle is top 10 and an all star. Both guys took a while to develop with Embiid literally sitting out 2 years and Randle not becoming an All Star until the end of his 2nd contract. Lavine also only became an all star at 25 on his 2nd contract.

2015 is a conventional draft where the best player isn't a top pick (Booker) but the other All Stars in the draft are early picks.

2016 had a top 3 that all became all stars. Simmons was an All Star young, it took both JB and Ingram until contract 2 to become all stars. Under that the best players are all picked later and took a while to develop. Sabonis, Siakam, and Brogdon all developed at the very end of their rookie deals.

I can keep going but the point is that with 21 young players in a 5 year period we should be able to find one star. It's on us whether we keep them or ship them out before they have a chance to develop.


You're naming a lot of old teams from before the current lottery odds, before one and done, or anything close to this era. The draft has never been as unreliable as it currently is.

This has been going on since we traded Ewing… one n done, new lotto odds, etc are no excuse for 20+ years of never truly trying this route.

I know times have changed n all, so current day it may be a bit different, but it’s still a reliable method. We just somehow always seem to fuq it up and end up right outside where we should’ve been by not fully committing to a rebuild.


02’ we pass on Amare and trade the pick for McDyess.

We were garbage in 03’… with a historic class, I remember being heated for still not embracing the rebuild n going full throttle to the top of the lotto… instead we ended up just outside of it and drafted Mike Sweetney.

05’ we traded our soul for Marbury the previous year and we ended up still being hot garbage because we had nothing outside of him… genius plan. We land the 8th pick… just 4 spots away from Cp3.

Same in 08’ with Steph… hiring a coach like D’Antoni at that point was premature. The wins he got us cost us a top player of all time.

15’ we lost a coin flip to Minny who got Towns… the 2 out of 3 meaningless wins we just had to get at the very end of the season instead of pulling the plug and securing that #1 spot… oh joy.

20’ fired a coach who was a perfect tank commander and promoted his assistant who ended up having twice the win record… lost a chance at LaMelo or Edwards there (looking at the records of the teams who landed them).

21’ We hire Thibs during a year we should’ve kept rebuilding.. surely that cost us a top pick in this draft. I’d say that’s more important than securing a coach like Thibs who is far from perfect.


Can’t forget all the years we traded our picks for trash only for them to land at the top of the lotto and get other teams perennial All-Stars and DPOY’s.

We’ve been so close to landing what we needed so many times, yet bad luck or whatever you wanna call it, has reared its ugly head and ruined it.


Regarding listing old teams that have won titles by getting their first superstar via the draft….

Warriors- drafted Steph 7th, then Klay n Dray

Cavs- drafted Kyrie #1, signed Lebron who they drafted initially @ #1, and traded their #1 pick for the 3rd star

Spurs- drafted Duncan #1, Kawhi 15th, DRob #1

Heat- drafted Wade #5, without him, Shaq, Lebron, and Bosh would’ve never came.


Mavs, Lakers, and Celtics all drafted Dirk (9th-foreign players weren’t looked at the same), Kobe (13th- high school), and Pierce (10th-projected higher) outside of the top of the lotto, but the point is that these franchises got their superstars in the draft (still near the top, and could’ve went higher if not for the times/era) and the rest followed.

The teams listed above are like 95% of the championship teams in the last 20 years.

It’s rare you get a superstar to come to an empty team. Lebron to LA doesn’t happen every day. The draft is far more likely to get you what you need.

You said Steph at 7 then Klay and Dray like Klay and Dray weren't later picks. Neither guy was top 10 iirc.

Cleveland also got LeBron in the FA and traded for Kevin Love their 3rd star.

With star movement maximized in the league the best position to be in is to have a lot of young assets you can trade, an overachieving coach, and a bunch of decent role players. Basically do what the Clippers and Nets did.

I said Steph at 7 because my main point is that the best way to get your superstar is the top of the draft. Getting Klay or your #2 at 11 is fine, but it’s rare to get your #1 outside the top 10.

Cleveland drafted Lebron #1 btw. Without that, he wouldn’t have went back there later on. They also drafted Kyrie #1, and used another #1 pick to trade for KLove. Without those 3 #1 picks, they wouldn’t have assembled that trio. It’s a testament to how important it is to be at the top.

Trading for our superstar hasn't worked out too well for us in the past either. We were stripped naked with the Melo trade, and we looked like fools with KD n Kyrie. We’re constantly used as leverage in free agency. That’s why I’m saying for NY especially, we need to forgo that route and try for ours at the top of the draft.