PG: The Post-Moo Era Begins. Bulls are Better

[nykfan42]

This loss wouldn't feel as bad if they didn't lose to garbage teams like the Magic twice, Cavs, and Raptors all at home. I thought they were better than all 3. I guess they're proving me wrong and we just suck.

[Chanel Bomber]

Trading Randle for Simmons would solve majority of our offensive problems. Ball would move quicker and Simmons is a great orchestrator. No more Randle posting up for 20 seconds of the shot clock, jumping around the court passing aimlessly and setting half ass screens which lead no where.

Randle is fake news like Westbrook. Their numbers are deceiving. They don't make anyone better on the team but themselves.

You do know that all the ball movement in the world won't mean diddly if you don't have someone that actually has high end scoring ability right? Please don't say RJ Barrett and IQ. How would adding a guy that cannot shoot AT ALL and who wilts under pressure offensively when in the spotlight or criticized solve our offensive problems (or any problems)? Adding Ben Simmons would make this team better if he also brings a Damian Lillard with him. But then again, if you add a player like Damian Lillard to this team then guys like Randle wouldn't have to try to be Lebron James and...this team would be better. And no, the point isn't about fantasizing about a trade that's not likely to happen, it's to point out that it's not as simple as you are making it out to be to "solve (the) majority of our offensive problems."

The Knicks problems this season is the same problem they had last season. They lack anyone that can actually be justified to take the ball out of Randle's hands and carry the offense on a consistent basis night in and night out. Ben Simmons is not a no.1 or no.2 option (and not even a no.3 option) on top teams (as he showed in the playoffs). The Knicks need that alternative no.1 option (or at least a 1a or 1b so Randle doesn't have to do what he's doing). Kemba Walker was supposed to be that guy. He hasn't been so far and may never been cause he may very well be shot.

Excellent post.

Thibodeau can move his chess pieces any way he wants to, we can't escape the fact that we don't have an elite primary shot creator. We're simply treading water until we acquire that guy.

I slightly disagree about Simmons. I think he's been misused in Philly because of the fit issues with Embiid.

I could see him as the secondary on a contender by using him as the roll man, like Draymond in Golden State or Giannis in Milwaukee last season, assuming you have a PG who can pull up from 3.

I view Randle as a tertiary or a 6th man. Fournier and Kemba as a 7th man. I don't think RJ has a role on a contender - he probably doesn't see minutes. Rose, Burks and IQ are more malleable and interesting than all these guys imo.

[TrueWarrior]

This team doesn't deserve Obi the way he's getting treated. Thibs just doesn't like his game.

Obi hit 2 threes and blocked 2 shots along with 10 points, 6 boards. Yet only played 13 minutes while Mitch and Taj were out, Nerlens in foul trouble, and the Bulls playing small.

The only way Obi is ever going to play more than 15 mpg is if Randle is traded or gets hurt apparently, and even then Thibs will prob start RJ at the 4 lol. Not his fault our defensive philosophy is to double everybody, pack the paint, and leave scrubs open from 3. Obi's per minute and advanced stats are all pretty great. If he's not going to play here then trade him, cuz this sh*t aint right!

[snadler]

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[snadler]

This team doesn't deserve Obi the way he's getting treated. Thibs just doesn't like his game.

Obi hit 2 threes and blocked 2 shots along with 10 points, 6 boards. Yet only played 13 minutes while Mitch and Taj were out, Nerlens in foul trouble, and the Bulls playing small.

The only way Obi is ever going to play more than 15 mpg is if Randle is traded or gets hurt apparently, and even then Thibs will prob start RJ at the 4 lol. Not his fault our defensive philosophy is to double everybody, pack the paint, and leave scrubs open from 3. Obi's per minute and advanced stats are all pretty great. If he's not going to play here then trade him. cuz this sh*t aint right!

This is definitely a problem, but a good one, Obi most likely will be traded because unless they decide to fully embrace small ball unlikely he doesn’t have a future here because he will always be blocked by Randle

[Clyde_Style]

This team doesn't deserve Obi the way he's getting treated. Thibs just doesn't like his game.

Obi hit 2 threes and blocked 2 shots along with 10 points, 6 boards. Yet only played 13 minutes while Mitch and Taj were out, Nerlens in foul trouble, and the Bulls playing small.

The only way Obi is ever going to play more than 15 mpg is if Randle is traded or gets hurt apparently, and even then Thibs will prob start RJ at the 4 lol. Not his fault our defensive philosophy is to double everybody, pack the paint, and leave scrubs open from 3. Obi's per minute and advanced stats are all pretty great. If he's not going to play here then trade him. cuz this sh*t aint right!

This is definitely a problem, but a good one, Obi most likely will be traded because unless they decide to fully embrace small ball unlikely he doesn’t have a future here because he will always be blocked by Randle

That would be a shame. He’s the most entertaining player to watch.

[TrueWarrior]

This team doesn't deserve Obi the way he's getting treated. Thibs just doesn't like his game.

Obi hit 2 threes and blocked 2 shots along with 10 points, 6 boards. Yet only played 13 minutes while Mitch and Taj were out, Nerlens in foul trouble, and the Bulls playing small.

The only way Obi is ever going to play more than 15 mpg is if Randle is traded or gets hurt apparently, and even then Thibs will prob start RJ at the 4 lol. Not his fault our defensive philosophy is to double everybody, pack the paint, and leave scrubs open from 3. Obi's per minute and advanced stats are all pretty great. If he's not going to play here then trade him. cuz this sh*t aint right!

This is definitely a problem, but a good one, Obi most likely will be traded because unless they decide to fully embrace small ball unlikely he doesn’t have a future here because he will always be blocked by Randle

If we trade Obi over Julius we will regret it. Would be such a typical Knicks move though .

Obi isn't even small. He's 6'9'' with a 7'2'' wingspan (basically the same size as Taj) and is an athletic freakazoid. He'll keep getting stronger and can easily play more center in today's game. Many other teams are playing friggin SFs at center now, the Bulls included last night, yet we're stuck in the 90s.

Last night was the perfect time to see what he can do. If anything we went too small with RJ at the 4, and skipped right over Obi who was playing better and could have abused them inside. Thibs just doesn't like the guy.

[Deeeez Knicks]

If Obi can't get more then 15min in this one there's not much hope.

[seren]

Don’t have MSG so I am missing games. What is up with RJ’s shots? Is it bad shot selection/spacing or he simply can’t make anything?

[Deeeez Knicks]

Don’t have MSG so I am missing games. What is up with RJ’s shots? Is it bad shot selection/spacing or he simply can’t make anything?

Hes getting good looks just can't buy a basket

[Ray Williams]

This team doesn't deserve Obi the way he's getting treated. Thibs just doesn't like his game.

Obi hit 2 threes and blocked 2 shots along with 10 points, 6 boards. Yet only played 13 minutes while Mitch and Taj were out, Nerlens in foul trouble, and the Bulls playing small.

The only way Obi is ever going to play more than 15 mpg is if Randle is traded or gets hurt apparently, and even then Thibs will prob start RJ at the 4 lol. Not his fault our defensive philosophy is to double everybody, pack the paint, and leave scrubs open from 3. Obi's per minute and advanced stats are all pretty great. If he's not going to play here then trade him. cuz this sh*t aint right!

This is definitely a problem, but a good one, Obi most likely will be traded because unless they decide to fully embrace small ball unlikely he doesn’t have a future here because he will always be blocked by Randle

That would be a shame. He’s the most entertaining player to watch.

That’s why Randle should be the one to go. This team is nothing close to a contender, time to start fresh.
Free Obi, Grimes and Deuce.

[FrozenEnvelope]

We already won in Chicago earlier so this loss doesn't bother me too much but it makes those home losses to Orlando sting even more. Right now this is a .500 team. We'll win half of our games and lose half of our games. We'll beat some elite teams here and there and lose to the tanking teams too. We'll go on win streaks and go on losing streaks. This is what a .500 team feels like. My hope and believe is that they figure it out and go on a winning streak in the second half of the season much like last season.

Some of the same issues last night (3pt defense in particular, offensive rebounds, turnovers) but it was good to see Randle have an efficient game. Liked how he mixed it up and didn't settle for the three. He also got to the line. Also liked how Kemba came out in the third quarter. He needs to do more of that and be Kemba Walker even in short spurts. RJ continues to struggle. Can't even get layup's right now. Fournier with a step back after that nice game against the Rockets. Burks was alright and Obi gave us some nice minutes but Thibs needs to trust this kid and play him more. Everyone else was meh. I think they played hard but they are just struggling.

I think roles need to be defined. Last season it was crystal clear Randle and RJ were the go-to guys. The Cs were the defensive anchors, Bulloch was the 3&D guy and Elf just tried to defend and distribute. Kemba and Fournier do not have the skillsets to be Elf and Bulloch but they are better players if used to complement their skillsets. I'm choosing to have faith they will all figure it out. Giving it until December 15/Christmas.

[duetta]

If Obi can't get more then 15min in this one there's not much hope.

His +/- wasn't great but he 2 blocked shots - which is a component we need to see from him - as well as hit a couple of threes.

[moocow007]

Trading Randle for Simmons would solve majority of our offensive problems. Ball would move quicker and Simmons is a great orchestrator. No more Randle posting up for 20 seconds of the shot clock, jumping around the court passing aimlessly and setting half ass screens which lead no where.

Randle is fake news like Westbrook. Their numbers are deceiving. They don't make anyone better on the team but themselves.

You do know that all the ball movement in the world won't mean diddly if you don't have someone that actually has high end scoring ability right? Please don't say RJ Barrett and IQ. How would adding a guy that cannot shoot AT ALL and who wilts under pressure offensively when in the spotlight or criticized solve our offensive problems (or any problems)? Adding Ben Simmons would make this team better if he also brings a Damian Lillard with him. But then again, if you add a player like Damian Lillard to this team then guys like Randle wouldn't have to try to be Lebron James and...this team would be better. And no, the point isn't about fantasizing about a trade that's not likely to happen, it's to point out that it's not as simple as you are making it out to be to "solve (the) majority of our offensive problems."

The Knicks problems this season is the same problem they had last season. They lack anyone that can actually be justified to take the ball out of Randle's hands and carry the offense on a consistent basis night in and night out. Ben Simmons is not a no.1 or no.2 option (and not even a no.3 option) on top teams (as he showed in the playoffs). The Knicks need that alternative no.1 option (or at least a 1a or 1b so Randle doesn't have to do what he's doing). Kemba Walker was supposed to be that guy. He hasn't been so far and may never been cause he may very well be shot.

This.. people so caught up on ball movement.. What our real issue is is that we need good basketball players… shot makers.. we got a bunch of brick layers.. Barrett the main one. You can get Simmons here and it wouldn’t make us any better. We’d actually get a lot worst without the explosive offense Randle can provide

Yep. Folks think that all you need to do is to have everyone else take more shots and it's solved. If it was that easy then teams without top shot creators would be a lot better than they are cause you can just let the next guy on the totem pole take more shots. Easy peasy right? Then when RJ starts getting blocked even more cause now offenses will start giving him the Randle treatment they'll want to trade him as well and let Obi or IQ take the shots. And when Obi and IQ fail to do what this team needs they'll want to trade them as well...

[Deeeez Knicks]

If Obi can't get more then 15min in this one there's not much hope.

His +/- wasn't great but he 2 blocked shots - which is a component we need to see from him - as well as hit a couple of threes.

+/- is pretty fluky in a small sample size. Honestly, can't even remember too much of what happened in those minutes to factor into that. Obi was very productive though.

[moocow007]

We already won in Chicago earlier so this loss doesn't bother me too much but it makes those home losses to Orlando sting even more. Right now this is a .500 team. We'll win half of our games and lose half of our games. We'll beat some elite teams here and there and lose to the tanking teams too. We'll go on win streaks and go on losing streaks. This is what a .500 team feels like. My hope and believe is that they figure it out and go on a winning streak in the second half of the season much like last season.

Some of the same issues last night (3pt defense in particular, offensive rebounds, turnovers) but it was good to see Randle have an efficient game. Liked how he mixed it up and didn't settle for the three. He also got to the line. Also liked how Kemba came out in the third quarter. He needs to do more of that and be Kemba Walker even in short spurts. RJ continues to struggle. Can't even get layup's right now. Fournier with a step back after that nice game against the Rockets. Burks was alright and Obi gave us some nice minutes but Thibs needs to trust this kid and play him more. Everyone else was meh. I think they played hard but they are just struggling.

I think roles need to be defined. Last season it was crystal clear Randle and RJ were the go-to guys. The Cs were the defensive anchors, Bulloch was the 3&D guy and Elf just tried to defend and distribute. Kemba and Fournier do not have the skillsets to be Elf and Bulloch but they are better players if used to complement their skillsets. I'm choosing to have faith they will all figure it out. Giving it until December 15/Christmas.

Yeah last nights loss wasn't as bad for me either. It was against he top team in the East (record wise) on their home court and with them on a roll. And it was still a close winnable game until the near end of the game.

I think KOT pointed out last night on the NBNF podcast, the Knicks also were about a .500 team clip early last season and picked it up as the season moved towards the end. So yeah, I mean we aren't far off from last season. That's obviously not a good thing but it's not awful I guess.

This team traded defense for offense in the offseason so the defense looking worse isn't surprising. It's disheartening but not surprising. The problem with this team is that the offense that they traded the defense for hasn't looked any better than the offense they had last season. And with teams apparently having figured how to defend the Knicks (following the Hawks playoff blueprint) the lack of any (materialized) upgrade over last season's offense is at the core of the problem with this team.

From my point of view, the Knicks offense really isn't very elaborate or difficult to figure out. They do the same things over and over again, run the same limited set of plays and really don't exploit the pick and roll much at all. Is that Thibs? Is it the players he has to work with? I don't know. Chicken and egg question. With Walker and Fournier looking like crap, they really are still one of the least talented teams in the NBA...on both ends now. In that sense that they are still 1 game over .500 may be a good thing.

If you watch the other team (every other team they've played) they've been able to basically use the pick and roll to pick apart the Knicks defense which just doesn't have the defensive length and talent/mindset to switch quickly enough. Net result is they regularly leave opposing players wide open. Against top teams (i.e. playoff teams) that'll never do and you'll never win a series that way UNLESS someone like Kemba Walker finds the fountain of youth (which thus far looks like has about as much chance as Ponce De Leon ended up having).

I think this team needs to make some honest decisions about where they're at and make some moves. I don't think this team as is, standing pat, is a good decision.

I get that things can chance and they could figure it out. But if you be honest and take a look at what this team is, their ceiling, in the playoffs, against what inevitably will be more talented teams, the prognosis, even in the best of (realisitic) cases is not good. The fact that the East is wide open is both good and bad when it comes to being able to compete. For a team like they Knicks they may be 1 significant impact player away from being able to be serious players in the East. Won't be if you do nothing. Alternatively, if they want to capitalize on every other team in the East thinking they have a shot by dealing some of their roster guys for the future (likely more buyers than sellers could allow them to get more than normal value in return), that may also be a move worth considering. IN any case, doing nothing? That would be the worst choice.

[Knicksfan1992]

I'm more encouraged by this loss than I was by the win against the Rox..However, there still feels like there's a systematic problem with this team. I think it's a case of too many chefs in the kitchen but none of them are truly elite cooks... I think part of the reason the offense worked in the 2nd half of the season last year was because there was a direct gameplan offensively to play through Randle and/or Rose when they were in and everyone's offense kind of trickled down from that...You had willing off-ball workers in IQ, Burks, Bullock, Noel, Obi and even RJ to an extent...Adding Kemba and Fournier, in theory, should have bolstered the offense from being so one dimensional. but it's just complicated things more and things have just become disjointed. It feels like if we don't get Kemba or Fourny going early they sort of check out and we're left with tons of stagnation. It just feels like the Knicks are missing a pure energy guy in the starting 5 who doesn't really care if he gets the chance to have the ball in his hands.

I've defended the Fournier signing on here, but it's getting harder to defend his effort levels and inability to be mostly a catch and shoot guy who then uses that to then open up the rest of his game... I think he needs to be a trade candidate on December 15th and it just feels like if you could move him for maybe a less skilled but harder working wing this team would make a lot more sense. Right now, I think the answers in house are starting Burks over him and/or giving Grimes more minutes instead of Fournier. I think moving fournier to the bench would help give him more opportunity and leash to get things going for himself and playing with natural ball movers like Obi, Rose and IQ could help get him going. The starting 5 could use Burks energy and willing to pull as a catch and shoot guy.

I do think a lot of last night's loss was guys just missing shots though. Randle was fantastic on both ends I thought and was really aggressive all night which is what he's been missing all year. I thought Kemba's 3rd quarter was exactly what I envisioned when we signed him. Using Randle as a way to free himself up for looks and making passes. I don't think it's a coincidence it came with Obi on the floor too...He's yet to put it together for a full game but the signs are there that he's not washed and is just still adjusting to a different situation..I also think he's better defensively than he gets credit for here for the most part. He seems to be the scapegoat on that end because it's noticeable when he's at a disadvantage unlike Mitch who hasn't been as noticeable, but has been pretty terrible at points on D IMO. with late rotations and less wow plays than usual on that end.

This upcoming stretch will tell us a lot about these guys. If they can stay around .500 coming through the next 5-10 games than the schedule lightens up a lot. I still think a change needs to be made but defensively they've been much better and that's encouraging now it comes down to buy in on offense...

[moocow007]

Don’t have MSG so I am missing games. What is up with RJ’s shots? Is it bad shot selection/spacing or he simply can’t make anything?

He's out of rhythm most of the time. He may have open looks but he's usually a tick off balance, a tick rushed or slow. You can see the ball leaning right or left a bit a lot on his shots when it hits the basket. I've said on the NBNF podcast that this team is not doing him any favors in terms of how they play and the lack of anyone that can move the ball, get into the paint and dish forces him (and pretty much every other Knick on the team) to have to do things that they are not best suited for and in turn causes the offensive flow to basically become choppy. That's why they take so many 3's. It's the only shot that is easy (to take not to make) when the offense just doesn't have any flow, energy or creativity to it.

[TrueWarrior]

RJ seriously cannot jump more than 5 inches it seems. He's out there playing like a 45 year old with two blown knees. His shot being off is one thing but he's whiffing wide open layups too. We can talk about the offensive system, Randle, and such but we can't make excuses for the way he's playing now. It's not a confidence thing as much as he just isn't athletic at all for a 21 year old top 3 pick. He should be yamming it down on fools but he just doesn't have the ability unless he gets a full steam ahead. If you're not concerned about him then you're in denial.

Rose also hasn't been playing too well lately. Hope it's not an injury thing because he's been our best player since he got here. If he goes down this team is complete toast lol.

Randle played better last night though. Trade him while we can .

[nykfan42]

Don’t have MSG so I am missing games. What is up with RJ’s shots? Is it bad shot selection/spacing or he simply can’t make anything?

Hes getting good looks just can't buy a basket

Exactly. All good looks. I think he is also settling for jumpers too much. Also lack of confidence. He doesn't attack the rim as much as he should. I've said this before the easiest way to get some confidence back is getting to the FT line but even then he isn't making those. I don't recall stretches like this last season. He was pretty money from 3 and at the FT line and in general just a reliable player. Now he's a liability.