PG: The Post-Moo Era Begins. Bulls are Better

[moocow007]

You made a thread about trading for Russ, I said that would be a disaster, that's what you wanted so don't bring that up now.


I may not know everything, but I know a crap offense centered around 1 player when I see it. And funny you do mention Russ, because that's what Randle is really, a guy getting his numbers at any cost.

And yet Westbrook would still be better than Walker and Fournier.

The Lakers have an even worse offense than us. We're not watching the same sport if you think Russ and Randle can play together.

The Lakers are 9-9 without pretty much Lebron for the entire season. The Knicks are 9-8 in the worst conference. WOW.

The Lakers have Lebron to look forward to. The Knicks?

[Clyde_Style]

Well yeah but Randle isn't Lebron so I say we hang the bastard.

I nominate every Melo/Randle ain’t Lebron statement as the dumbest argument point ever made on RealGM

Come on man, it’s so lame

It is but then you tell me what guys are expecting out of Randle when Randle is clearly a one dimensional offensive player that cannot carry a team like the Knicks to anything all by himself. The point of my persistent use of this OBVIOUS exaggeration is to try to get people to not overreact on the extreme other end. It's the same thing when Ewing was here, same thing when Carmelo was here. Rinse repeat. You want to stop nonsense, how about we stop that unrealistic expectations nonsense with our best players (who were never the top 10 best of their time) and who had nowhere near the help the other already better no.1 options the other teams had.
Better?

Right, it is a silly argument. And it doesn't need to be trotted out because Randle played excellent defense last year and now he doesn't. That alone is enough right there to say our expectations are based on precedent, not specious Lebron comparisons. There's more to the critique of Randle right now and it is warranted IMO and is not based on unreasonable expectations at all.

[moocow007]

Russ screening for Randle to get the ball back, Randle screening for Russ to get the ball back, which leads to Russ screening for Randle to get the ball back, which of course results in Randle screening for Russ to get the ball back.


The infinite loop paradox.

IQ jacking shots from 50 feet out as the no.1 option. The fantasy island paradox.

We got a Russ fan yall.

We got a IQ as the no.1 option fan yall.

[Jalen Bluntson]

And yet Westbrook would still be better than Walker and Fournier.

The Lakers have an even worse offense than us. We're not watching the same sport if you think Russ and Randle can play together.

he made it work with Payton and Westbrook is basically a super saiyan version of elfrid payton except he can actually finish at the rim

No. He made it work with Rose. Payton was the reason we would fall behind to start games and the bench bailed the team out. The team sucked before the Rose trade. Or am I forgetting something? Payton was playing seat warmer as his minutes decreased over time and NOTHING worked with him.

[moocow007]

I nominate every Melo/Randle ain’t Lebron statement as the dumbest argument point ever made on RealGM

Come on man, it’s so lame

It is but then you tell me what guys are expecting out of Randle when Randle is clearly a one dimensional offensive player that cannot carry a team like the Knicks to anything all by himself. The point of my persistent use of this OBVIOUS exaggeration is to try to get people to not overreact on the extreme other end. It's the same thing when Ewing was here, same thing when Carmelo was here. Rinse repeat. You want to stop nonsense, how about we stop that unrealistic expectations nonsense with our best players (who were never the top 10 best of their time) and who had nowhere near the help the other already better no.1 options the other teams had.
Better?

Right, it is a silly argument. And it doesn't need to be trotted out because Randle played excellent defense last year and now he doesn't. That alone is enough right there to say our expectations are based on precedent, not specious Lebron comparisons. There's more to the critique of Randle right now and it is warranted IMO and is not based on unreasonable expectations at all.

The critique about Randle's game is ABSOLUTELY warranted. I do it A LOT on the NBNF podcast. Except I actually point to reasonable expectations. TO say that the Knicks problems would be solved by SIMPLY trading Randle for whatever is idiotic. More idiotic then my statement about people expecting him to be Lebron James.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

IQ jacking shots from 50 feet out as the no.1 option. The fantasy island paradox.

We got a Russ fan yall.

We got a IQ as the no.1 option fan yall.

I've never said I wanted IQ as our featured player, but you definitely said you want us to trade for Russ. I want more ball movement, somehow that means I want IQ to shoot 30 times a game to you

[robillionaire]

The Lakers have an even worse offense than us. We're not watching the same sport if you think Russ and Randle can play together.

he made it work with Payton and Westbrook is basically a super saiyan version of elfrid payton except he can actually finish at the rim

Russ is a ball dominant player, Payton isn't.


Russ averages more touches per game than Randle, so he wouldn't be playing off Randle, everyone would be playing off him. So, you want us to be a Russ featured team with Randle as his 2? In 2021? Aight.

I don’t want it but it would be better than what we have for sure

[god shammgod]

russ is killing my lakers. killing them.

Russ screening for Randle to get the ball back, Randle screening for Russ to get the ball back, which leads to Russ screening for Randle to get the ball back, which of course results in Randle screening for Russ to get the ball back.


The infinite loop paradox.

IQ jacking shots from 50 feet out as the no.1 option. The fantasy island paradox.

there are no number 1 options on the team. there's no number 2s actually if you're planning to be a contender. i'm not one of these start this guy or run this more and it'll fix everything guys. it might fix a little but this roster isn't fixable with tweaks. last year was a fluke and the moves they made this summer made the team worse. i think that's all becoming obvious. so what then ? we're trading for/signing a superstar ? that's the same dream that every new gm sells to this fanbase. not gonna happen. so get back in the draft like a man. and if we never hit on any draft picks, so what ? we'll die like a man waiting. that's how you do it. this generation needs to toughen up.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

he made it work with Payton and Westbrook is basically a super saiyan version of elfrid payton except he can actually finish at the rim

Russ is a ball dominant player, Payton isn't.


Russ averages more touches per game than Randle, so he wouldn't be playing off Randle, everyone would be playing off him. So, you want us to be a Russ featured team with Randle as his 2? In 2021? Aight.

I don’t want it but it would be better than what we have for sure

It really wouldn't, and he's a terrible defender now too, so the Payton comparison doesn't work.

[god shammgod]

russ is killing my lakers. killing them.

Can we convince NO that the only way Zion will stay put is to reunite him with RJ in a deal for Ingram and picks.

they can't convince zion to stop using pan fried cheese cake as his morning toast. i don't think they're thinking about trading ingram now.

[Clyde_Style]

It is but then you tell me what guys are expecting out of Randle when Randle is clearly a one dimensional offensive player that cannot carry a team like the Knicks to anything all by himself. The point of my persistent use of this OBVIOUS exaggeration is to try to get people to not overreact on the extreme other end. It's the same thing when Ewing was here, same thing when Carmelo was here. Rinse repeat. You want to stop nonsense, how about we stop that unrealistic expectations nonsense with our best players (who were never the top 10 best of their time) and who had nowhere near the help the other already better no.1 options the other teams had.
Better?

Right, it is a silly argument. And it doesn't need to be trotted out because Randle played excellent defense last year and now he doesn't. That alone is enough right there to say our expectations are based on precedent, not specious Lebron comparisons. There's more to the critique of Randle right now and it is warranted IMO and is not based on unreasonable expectations at all.

The critique about Randle's game is ABSOLUTELY warranted. I do it A LOT on the NBNF podcast. Except I actually point to reasonable expectations. TO say that the Knicks problems would be solved by SIMPLY trading Randle for whatever is idiotic. More idiotic then my statement about people expecting him to be Lebron James.

I never said everything would be solved by trading Randle

In fact, I don't think ANYONE has said that specifically

I did say you can't build around him

I did say you need to start over

I did say let's tank

I did say we're not making the playoffs in all likelihood

So trading Randle solves nothing more than rebooting and starting over, because anyone who thinks the solution is just to put a star next to Randle and remain an offense that runs through his ball dominant hands are the ones in denial

Getting Randle help is not the solution

[moocow007]

We got a Russ fan yall.

We got a IQ as the no.1 option fan yall.

I've never said I wanted IQ as our featured player, but you definitely said you want us to trade for Russ. I want more ball movement, somehow that means I want IQ to shoot 30 times a game to you

I said I wanted to trade for Russ when? Last year. And wanting to trade for someone because we can get him for next to nothing and cause he can actually create shots (i.e. this teams biggest needs) equates to me being a fan (worthy of making your silly statement)? Westbrook when they played the Hawks would have been worse how?

I wanted Walker...at $8 million per. Doesn't make me a fan. I wanted Derozan at what the Bulls got him for (not for the max) so that also doesn't make me a fan does it? If I was a fan of Derozan I'd have wanted him at whatever cost right?

It's not about fan or not fan, liking or not liking. It's about what this team needs and what it can do to realistically get guys that can fill needs. The Knicks CLEAR CLEAR CLEAR need is someone that can actually create his own shots and that can consistently score as a no.1 option at best so the guy that you guys want to be traded for a bag of balls don't have to be the no.1 option. If they can't do that, at least get someone in that can actually still share the shot creation ability. Walker isn't it. Rose can't be it. Barrett clearly isn't it. IQ isn't it. Toppin isn't it. Fournier isn't it. As of right now, the Knicks 2nd most consistent shot creator is Alec Burks. Let me repeat Alec Burks. If that doesn't underline what the biggest problem with this team is I'm not sure what will. Trading Randle for expirings and a future pick will be great (and not even that to be honest) if the plan is to rebuild for the future not to try to win now.

[robillionaire]

Russ is a ball dominant player, Payton isn't.


Russ averages more touches per game than Randle, so he wouldn't be playing off Randle, everyone would be playing off him. So, you want us to be a Russ featured team with Randle as his 2? In 2021? Aight.

I don’t want it but it would be better than what we have for sure

It really wouldn't, and he's a terrible defender now too, so the Payton comparison doesn't work.

Yes it does, Payton was also a terrible defender statistically

[moocow007]

I don’t want it but it would be better than what we have for sure

It really wouldn't, and he's a terrible defender now too, so the Payton comparison doesn't work.

Yes it does, Payton was also a terrible defender statistically

And yet he still is a better defender than Walker is. And since Walker has done next to nothing offensively....

[Jalen Bluntson]

It is but then you tell me what guys are expecting out of Randle when Randle is clearly a one dimensional offensive player that cannot carry a team like the Knicks to anything all by himself. The point of my persistent use of this OBVIOUS exaggeration is to try to get people to not overreact on the extreme other end. It's the same thing when Ewing was here, same thing when Carmelo was here. Rinse repeat. You want to stop nonsense, how about we stop that unrealistic expectations nonsense with our best players (who were never the top 10 best of their time) and who had nowhere near the help the other already better no.1 options the other teams had.
Better?

Right, it is a silly argument. And it doesn't need to be trotted out because Randle played excellent defense last year and now he doesn't. That alone is enough right there to say our expectations are based on precedent, not specious Lebron comparisons. There's more to the critique of Randle right now and it is warranted IMO and is not based on unreasonable expectations at all.

The critique about Randle's game is ABSOLUTELY warranted. I do it A LOT on the NBNF podcast. Except I actually point to reasonable expectations. TO say that the Knicks problems would be solved by SIMPLY trading Randle for whatever is idiotic. More idiotic then my statement about people expecting him to be Lebron James.

I thought the point being made was to stop running the offense through Randle. Who said trading him would make us better? That would depend on whatever package we got in return.

[moocow007]

Right, it is a silly argument. And it doesn't need to be trotted out because Randle played excellent defense last year and now he doesn't. That alone is enough right there to say our expectations are based on precedent, not specious Lebron comparisons. There's more to the critique of Randle right now and it is warranted IMO and is not based on unreasonable expectations at all.

The critique about Randle's game is ABSOLUTELY warranted. I do it A LOT on the NBNF podcast. Except I actually point to reasonable expectations. TO say that the Knicks problems would be solved by SIMPLY trading Randle for whatever is idiotic. More idiotic then my statement about people expecting him to be Lebron James.

I thought the point being made was to stop running the offense through Randle. Who said trading him would make us better? That would depend on whatever package we got in return.

Your friend NoHopeForSundays.

But even with the running the offense through. I just want to point out again the desperate need this team has for someone that can create shots here. If they don't run the offense through Randle, who do they run it through? They don't have any shot creators that can consistently carry the load. I get that fans are excited about the bench bringing energy and being among the tops in the NBA is bench scoring, etc. But it doesn't mean that you can "simply" just expand their roles. This team needs help. And it needs help at the very top of the ladder. That way we can have what I think everyone is after which is less of a need to run the offense as often through Randle. Walker (and Fournier) was supposed to do that. They haven't. Fournier can't for whatever reason. Walker? It very well be that he's physically shot and can't carry that responsibility.

[mpharris36]

No offensive system will make up for RJ not being able to convert wide open layups and layups in traffic other good nba players make in their sleep.. dude is just buns right now

Yet we hear every excuse in the book for RJ

-Play him with the 2nd unit
-Limit his shared minutes with Randle
-Let him facilitate and run P&R more
-Get him out in transition

To be fair I actually thought he did a fantastic job on LaVine. There is no doubt in my mind that he can become a very good defensive wing.

But he is so limited athletically and it’s without question going to lower his ceiling. There are countless times where RJ has a step ahead (when he’s going full steam) but the defender is always able to recover because RJ is attempting layups on a very low angle. This gives the opposition plenty of time it either (a) block his shot or (b) alter it.

Teams are also cutting off his left and trying to force him right and he has no mid range pull up to speak of to keep the defense off-balance.

RJ is now 46 of his last 148 over his last 10 games. Everyone wants to write it off as “he’s just missing shots.” But it’s so much deeper than that. He has absolutely no mid range game to speak of. No pull up J in his arsenal. He cannot finish at the hoop. His overall burst is actually worse than Elfrid Payton and he’s had his shot blocked 107 times in his last 89 games. He never seems to post up smaller guards anymore and we know he has no fadeaway to speak of. For a guy whose playing like he has cement blocks in his shoes why not develop a series of head fakes to get to the FT line? He’s so slow with his moves that he actually reminds me of Paul Pierce when he played for Washington in 2014 when he was 36 years old.

Before we know it, RJ will be eligible for a 5 year $181 million dollar extension. Of course he’s not worth that. But it begs the question, if you don’t want to even give RJ north of $25-$30 million per year what exactly is our plan with him.

they were mad i called him 3 & d. now that he can't hit 3s or layups, he's actually 1 out of 2 from the line & d.

I hate you!

[Clyde_Style]

The plan was to field a playoff team for multiple season while building enough assets and retaining cap flexibility in order to land a big cheese

Well, the plan is in freefall now. Rose looked golden last season, but the shine is off and when they don't make the playoffs what does anyone expect to happen?

The best outcome now is trying to turn some of our assets into good 2-way players even if they are not starters or even more flexibility, because Plan A is bombing

[NoDopeOnSundays]

We got a IQ as the no.1 option fan yall.

I've never said I wanted IQ as our featured player, but you definitely said you want us to trade for Russ. I want more ball movement, somehow that means I want IQ to shoot 30 times a game to you

I said I wanted to trade for Russ when? Last year. And wanting to trade for someone because we can get him for next to nothing and cause he can actually create shots (i.e. this teams biggest needs) equates to me being a fan (worthy of making your silly statement)?

I wanted Walker...at $8 million per. Doesn't make me a fan. I wanted Derozan at what the Bulls got him for (not for the max) so that also doesn't make me a fan does it? If I was a fan of Derozan I'd have wanted him at whatever cost right?

It's not about fan or not fan, liking or not liking. It's about what this team needs and what it can do to realistically get guys that can fill needs. The Knicks CLEAR CLEAR CLEAR need is someone that can actually create his own shots and that can consistently score as a no.1 option at best so the guy that you guys want to be traded for a bag of balls don't have to be the no.1 option. If they can't do that, at least get someone in that can actually still share the shot creation ability. Walker isn't it. Rose can't be it. Barrett clearly isn't it. IQ isn't it. Toppin isn't it. Fournier isn't it. As of right now, the Knicks 2nd most consistent shot creator is Alec Burks. Let me repeat Alec Burks. If that doesn't underline what the biggest problem with this team is I'm not sure what will. Trading Randle for expirings and a future pick will be great (and not even that to be honest) if the plan is to rebuild for the future not to try to win now.

The Knicks offense could be better than it is, that is the point you're just missing. We're not going to contend for a title with the players we have, but we should have a much better offense than we do. You can say all these players aren't this and that, but Kemba/Fournier can score, they apparently can't with us, why aren't you asking the question of why is that?

I didn't want Kemba, he was cooked, but he should still be able to get you 15ppg, but we just don't put him in any kind of position to be successful, and you don't ask why that is. Fournier's defense sucked and I didn't want him either, but we know for certain he can score, yet he can't with us, WHY? It's not like the Magic had some great shot creator the last few seasons.

[mpharris36]

we are at the point people are wanting Russell Westbrook?