PG: The Post-Moo Era Begins. Bulls are Better

[DaGawd]

Yet we hear every excuse in the book for RJ

-Play him with the 2nd unit
-Limit his shared minutes with Randle
-Let him facilitate and run P&R more
-Get him out in transition

To be fair I actually thought he did a fantastic job on LaVine. There is no doubt in my mind that he can become a very good defensive wing.

But he is so limited athletically and it’s without question going to lower his ceiling. There are countless times where RJ has a step ahead (when he’s going full steam) but the defender is always able to recover because RJ is attempting layups on a very low angle. This gives the opposition plenty of time it either (a) block his shot or (b) alter it.

Teams are also cutting off his left and trying to force him right and he has no mid range pull up to speak of to keep the defense off-balance.

RJ is now 46 of his last 148 over his last 10 games. Everyone wants to write it off as “he’s just missing shots.” But it’s so much deeper than that. He has absolutely no mid range game to speak of. No pull up J in his arsenal. He cannot finish at the hoop. His overall burst is actually worse than Elfrid Payton and he’s had his shot blocked 107 times in his last 89 games. He never seems to post up smaller guards anymore and we know he has no fadeaway to speak of. For a guy whose playing like he has cement blocks in his shoes why not develop a series of head fakes to get to the FT line? He’s so slow with his moves that he actually reminds me of Paul Pierce when he played for Washington in 2014 when he was 36 years old.

Before we know it, RJ will be eligible for a 5 year $181 million dollar extension. Of course he’s not worth that. But it begs the question, if you don’t want to even give RJ north of $25-$30 million per year what exactly is our plan with him.

they were mad i called him 3 & d. now that he can't hit 3s or layups, he's actually 1 out of 2 from the line & d.

I hate you!

Prepare for RJs 2 star rating across the board in BAF after this coming season lol

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I don’t want it but it would be better than what we have for sure

It really wouldn't, and he's a terrible defender now too, so the Payton comparison doesn't work.

Yes it does, Payton was also a terrible defender statistically

Russ can't play with centers, your beloved Nerlens would be bench bound, so I say we should get him just to see you suffer

[Jalen Bluntson]

Russ screening for Randle to get the ball back, Randle screening for Russ to get the ball back, which leads to Russ screening for Randle to get the ball back, which of course results in Randle screening for Russ to get the ball back.


The infinite loop paradox.

IQ jacking shots from 50 feet out as the no.1 option. The fantasy island paradox.

there are no number 1 options on the team. there's no number 2s actually if you're planning to be a contender. i'm not one of these start this guy or run this more and it'll fix everything guys. it might fix a little but this roster isn't fixable with tweaks. last year was a fluke and the moves they made this summer made the team worse. i think that's all becoming obvious. so what then ? we're trading for/signing a superstar ? that's the same dream that every new gm sells to this fanbase. not gonna happen. so get back in the draft like a man. and if we never hit on any draft picks, so what ? we'll die like a man waiting. that's how you do it. this generation needs to toughen up.

ALL OF THIS!!

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Russ screening for Randle to get the ball back, Randle screening for Russ to get the ball back, which leads to Russ screening for Randle to get the ball back, which of course results in Randle screening for Russ to get the ball back.


The infinite loop paradox.

IQ jacking shots from 50 feet out as the no.1 option. The fantasy island paradox.

there are no number 1 options on the team. there's no number 2s actually if you're planning to be a contender. i'm not one of these start this guy or run this more and it'll fix everything guys. it might fix a little but this roster isn't fixable with tweaks. last year was a fluke and the moves they made this summer made the team worse. i think that's all becoming obvious. so what then ? we're trading for/signing a superstar ? that's the same dream that every new gm sells to this fanbase. not gonna happen. so get back in the draft like a man. and if we never hit on any draft picks, so what ? we'll die like a man waiting. that's how you do it. this generation needs to toughen up.

[DaGawd]

My biggest issue with the FO’s use of the cap space we had this past off season is that we did nothing creative with it to accumulate assets. I was big on the idea of trading for Wall the previous off season and getting back premium assets from Washington. We could’ve easily did something like that this time around and again chose the old boring vanilla approach of just trying to tread water enough in hopes of eventually signing a premier FA… meh

[moocow007]

I've never said I wanted IQ as our featured player, but you definitely said you want us to trade for Russ. I want more ball movement, somehow that means I want IQ to shoot 30 times a game to you

I said I wanted to trade for Russ when? Last year. And wanting to trade for someone because we can get him for next to nothing and cause he can actually create shots (i.e. this teams biggest needs) equates to me being a fan (worthy of making your silly statement)?

I wanted Walker...at $8 million per. Doesn't make me a fan. I wanted Derozan at what the Bulls got him for (not for the max) so that also doesn't make me a fan does it? If I was a fan of Derozan I'd have wanted him at whatever cost right?

It's not about fan or not fan, liking or not liking. It's about what this team needs and what it can do to realistically get guys that can fill needs. The Knicks CLEAR CLEAR CLEAR need is someone that can actually create his own shots and that can consistently score as a no.1 option at best so the guy that you guys want to be traded for a bag of balls don't have to be the no.1 option. If they can't do that, at least get someone in that can actually still share the shot creation ability. Walker isn't it. Rose can't be it. Barrett clearly isn't it. IQ isn't it. Toppin isn't it. Fournier isn't it. As of right now, the Knicks 2nd most consistent shot creator is Alec Burks. Let me repeat Alec Burks. If that doesn't underline what the biggest problem with this team is I'm not sure what will. Trading Randle for expirings and a future pick will be great (and not even that to be honest) if the plan is to rebuild for the future not to try to win now.

The Knicks offense could be better than it is, that is the point you're just missing. We're not going to contend for a title with the players we have, but we should have a much better offense than we do. You can say all these players aren't this and that, but Kemba/Fournier can score, they apparently can't with us, why aren't you asking the question of why is that?

I didn't want Kemba, he was cooked, but he should still be able to get you 15ppg, but we just don't put him in any kind of position to be successful, and you don't ask why that is. Fournier's defense sucked and I didn't want him either, but we know for certain he can score, yet he can't with us, WHY? It's not like the Magic had some great shot creator the last few seasons.

The Magic had no expectations, no pressure to do anything. A lot easier to perform when there's no pressure. Why do you think you have all these players that looked great on other teams that, when they got traded to the Yankees, absolutely stunk? It's not just about stats or boxscores or wishful thinking. It's about being able to handle pressure and expectations. Some players simply cannot do that. Other players (like Walker) may be mentally able to do that but probably can't physically anymore. Rose is probably exactly the later type. And not only is coming from a no pressure team to a high pressure cooker team something not everyone can just simply handle, putting more expectations on players than they reasonably should be expected to handle also isn't so simple. Randle right now is a buffer (a bad buffer) that allows the rest of the Knicks old and low talented players to not have to do more than they can (mentally, physically or from a talent standpoint). That's what teams top players do beyond what shows up in stats. You take him out or you significantly alter what he has to do without giving that responsibility to someone that can actually handle it, and you'll see a cascading effect down the line where guys that looked great coming off the bench will now look like shite. Lessen the focus on running the offense through Randle? Sure, IF someone show's that they can take that load. I'm honestly not sure who that person is. You tell me. It can't be Rose cause he's starting to show that he can't even carry what he needs to carry right now much less more. Who else? Until and unless Walker and Fournier steps up (if at all) there is no one else. And ergo, we are back with Randle carrying the bulk of the load. A Randle that opposing teams have been figuring out how to defend ESPECIALLY if just by "simply" defending Randle you significant increase your chances of beating the Knicks cause they don't have another sure fire guy that can carrying it in Randle's place.

[Gravy]

This is really confusing to me how you guys just can't put two and two together, you cannot run an entire offense through 1 guy while everyone stands around and watches him. They brought in two guys who we know can score, yet now they can't score while playing in our offensive "system". Why doesn't it ever register that maybe Randle getting his numbers comes at the expense of the team having a coherent offense. Last night he scored, but we ran 76 possession through him, 15 of them were posts ups in which he averaged .73ppp, as a team we made only 249 passes in the game, and we had a 108.8 offensive rating which is almost exactly what Randle's individual career rating is. This is about as stagnant as an offense can get.


Last night, 20% of all of our shots came with 4-0 seconds left on the shot clock, that is horrible. The worst team in the league averages 12% of their shots coming that late in the clock. If you can't see what's happening, this is what the numbers are saying, we are running late clock posts up, making very little passes, and then when the clock is winding down it's 1 pass and shoot with no ball movement. Outside of signing all the best 3 & D shooters in the league there's no way to have a functioning offense like this. But, Randle got his.

To be fair I rewatched all the offensive possessions in the 3rd qtr(because I'm nuts?)

fournier dribble ball of foot passes to RJ floater
kemba drive
kemba to noel alley oop
kemba jumper
rj fast break
randle post up score
Evan drive
randle post up score and 1
kemba drive
kemba jumper
kemba jumper
randle jumper 23 sec on clock
kemba to randle 14 sec, randle to evan 11 sec, evan to randle 7 seconds
randle mini fast break fouled
kemba drive
kemba pass to randle dunk
kemba to RJ, Rj to Kemba, Kemba to Randle 8 sec, randle to kemba, kemba to randle 2 sec
Rj fast break turnover
kemba dribble pass to evan 3 sec
kemba to randle dunk
kemba to IQ jumper
kemba jumper
randle iso to end the qtr

Looks like the overwhelming amount of offense was run through Kemba. Randle had only 1 possession where he ran down the clock to end the quarter and he was extremely efficient. Maybe it was the other quarters where he was hogging the ball and forcing everyone else to shoot with 1 sec left on the clock?

"Hey guys, I went and looked at 1/4th of something to counter all the stats from the other 3/4ths you just used that come directly from NBA.com, checkmate"

That's basically your post. Impossible to debate anything with people who get actual data thrown in their face and come back with "Well, I watched". Cool.

Well yall are the same statisticians that said Frank is a great player because of his high +/- and the Knicks are the best team in the league when Payton is not playing so yes I have to watch the games myself. I like how all the bad stats in the offense are because of Randle even when he is not on the court.

4th Quarter: Still dont see Randle passing with 1 sec left on the clock every play and taking all the shots

randle comes in 7:06 with the team down 7
Rose to Randle to IQ jumper 13 seconds on clock
Rose to randle 13 sec randle to Burks 10 sec, burks to RJ
rj to randle to burks to IQ jumper 10 sec
randle to Burks jumper 13 sec
randle bad pass to IQ 13 sec
Rose to Randle to RJ 8 sec under basket
Rose to RJ
Rose to Randle 14 sec, Randle to Burks 8 sec, Burks back to Randle 3 sec, Randle to Burks
Rose fast break
Randle iso score
Rose drive Randle tip in
Randle iso 14 sec
RJ to IQ
Randle drive score
RJ drive

[moocow007]

IQ jacking shots from 50 feet out as the no.1 option. The fantasy island paradox.

there are no number 1 options on the team. there's no number 2s actually if you're planning to be a contender. i'm not one of these start this guy or run this more and it'll fix everything guys. it might fix a little but this roster isn't fixable with tweaks. last year was a fluke and the moves they made this summer made the team worse. i think that's all becoming obvious. so what then ? we're trading for/signing a superstar ? that's the same dream that every new gm sells to this fanbase. not gonna happen. so get back in the draft like a man. and if we never hit on any draft picks, so what ? we'll die like a man waiting. that's how you do it. this generation needs to toughen up.

He's not agreeing with you...I don't think. But then again, I'm not sure of sham agrees with himself so...

[mpharris36]

they were mad i called him 3 & d. now that he can't hit 3s or layups, he's actually 1 out of 2 from the line & d.

I hate you!

Prepare for RJs 2 star rating across the board in BAF after this coming season lol

I'll take solace that he was shooting with 41/26 splits last year 17 games in and finished 44/40. He is currently 39/31 right now through 17 games.

He will get hot at some point when everyone thought he was a bum last year.

[moocow007]

I hate you!

Prepare for RJs 2 star rating across the board in BAF after this coming season lol

I'll take solace that he was shooting with 41/26 splits last year 17 games in and finished 44/40. He is currently 39/31 right now through 17 games.

He will get hot at some point when everyone thought he was a bum last year.

Oh...RJ Barrett AND Michael Porter Jr I see...

[Jalen Bluntson]

The critique about Randle's game is ABSOLUTELY warranted. I do it A LOT on the NBNF podcast. Except I actually point to reasonable expectations. TO say that the Knicks problems would be solved by SIMPLY trading Randle for whatever is idiotic. More idiotic then my statement about people expecting him to be Lebron James.

I thought the point being made was to stop running the offense through Randle. Who said trading him would make us better? That would depend on whatever package we got in return.

Your friend NoHopeForSundays.

But even with the running the offense through. I just want to point out again the desperate need this team has for someone that can create shots here. If they don't run the offense through Randle, who do they run it through? They don't have any shot creators that can consistently carry the load. I get that fans are excited about the bench bringing energy and being among the tops in the NBA is bench scoring, etc. But it doesn't mean that you can "simply" just expand their roles. This team needs help. And it needs help at the very top of the ladder. That way we can have what I think everyone is after which is less of a need to run the offense as often through Randle. Walker (and Fournier) was supposed to do that. They haven't. Fournier can't for whatever reason. Walker? It very well be that he's physically shot and can't carry that responsibility.

I must have missed that. His point was clear to me. Even with Randle...the team could run better sets and possibly have better offense. ISO Randle is not very good. I agree.

The lack of talent is also a fact. Which is why the more intelligent posters on the board advocate staying in the draft until that changes. There isn't a team in history that won a title without drafting a STAR player...and I'd venture to say 99% of those came at or near the top of the draft. Wasting time trying to look competitive has been nothing but failure and a waste of time.

This is a .500 team give or take. The talent issues fall on the FO. The rotations and failure to make adjustments or even try to change things up is on the HC. The players can only try to do their best and if it isn't good enough...the FO/HC need to figure things out.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I said I wanted to trade for Russ when? Last year. And wanting to trade for someone because we can get him for next to nothing and cause he can actually create shots (i.e. this teams biggest needs) equates to me being a fan (worthy of making your silly statement)?

I wanted Walker...at $8 million per. Doesn't make me a fan. I wanted Derozan at what the Bulls got him for (not for the max) so that also doesn't make me a fan does it? If I was a fan of Derozan I'd have wanted him at whatever cost right?

It's not about fan or not fan, liking or not liking. It's about what this team needs and what it can do to realistically get guys that can fill needs. The Knicks CLEAR CLEAR CLEAR need is someone that can actually create his own shots and that can consistently score as a no.1 option at best so the guy that you guys want to be traded for a bag of balls don't have to be the no.1 option. If they can't do that, at least get someone in that can actually still share the shot creation ability. Walker isn't it. Rose can't be it. Barrett clearly isn't it. IQ isn't it. Toppin isn't it. Fournier isn't it. As of right now, the Knicks 2nd most consistent shot creator is Alec Burks. Let me repeat Alec Burks. If that doesn't underline what the biggest problem with this team is I'm not sure what will. Trading Randle for expirings and a future pick will be great (and not even that to be honest) if the plan is to rebuild for the future not to try to win now.

The Knicks offense could be better than it is, that is the point you're just missing. We're not going to contend for a title with the players we have, but we should have a much better offense than we do. You can say all these players aren't this and that, but Kemba/Fournier can score, they apparently can't with us, why aren't you asking the question of why is that?

I didn't want Kemba, he was cooked, but he should still be able to get you 15ppg, but we just don't put him in any kind of position to be successful, and you don't ask why that is. Fournier's defense sucked and I didn't want him either, but we know for certain he can score, yet he can't with us, WHY? It's not like the Magic had some great shot creator the last few seasons.

The Magic had no expectations, no pressure to do anything. A lot easier to perform when there's no pressure. Why do you think you have all these players that looked great on other teams that, when they got traded to the Yankees, absolutely stunk? It's not just about stats or boxscores or wishful thinking. It's about being able to handle pressure and expectations. Some players simply cannot do that. Other players (like Walker) may be mentally able to do that but probably can't physically anymore. Rose is probably exactly the later type. And not only is coming from a no pressure team to a high pressure cooker team something not everyone can just simply handle, putting more expectations on players than they reasonably should be expected to handle also isn't so simple. Randle right now is a buffer (a bad buffer) that allows the rest of the Knicks old and low talented players to not have to do more than they can (mentally, physically or from a talent standpoint). That's what teams top players do beyond what shows up in stats. You take him out or you significantly alter what he has to do without giving that responsibility to someone that can actually handle it, and you'll see a cascading effect down the line where guys that looked great coming off the bench will now look like shite. Lessen the focus on running the offense through Randle? Sure, IF someone show's that they can take that load. I'm honestly not sure who that person is. You tell me. It can't be Rose cause he's starting to show that he can't even carry what he needs to carry right now much less more. Who else? Until and unless Walker and Fournier steps up (if at all) there is no one else. And ergo, we are back with Randle carrying the bulk of the load. A Randle that opposing teams have been figuring out how to defend ESPECIALLY if just by "simply" defending Randle you significant increase your chances of beating the Knicks cause they don't have another sure fire guy that can carrying it in Randle's place.

What are you even going on here about? The Magic made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years with Fournier being a main offensive weapon for them. You can't compare different sports, what happens in baseball has no bearing on the NBA. We can just look at the numbers, Fournier is touching the ball 37.6 times per game, last year with the Magic that number was 46.8 and 44.4 the year before that. He's seen a significant drop in his possessions, that has nothing to do with expectations and everything to do with how he's being used and who he's playing off of. He actually got the ball more last season with the Celtics while playing with Brown, Tatum and Kemba.

The rest of the post is just a word salad, if you're going out of your way to excuse this stand and watch offense there's nothing to really say.

[moocow007]

I thought the point being made was to stop running the offense through Randle. Who said trading him would make us better? That would depend on whatever package we got in return.

Your friend NoHopeForSundays.

But even with the running the offense through. I just want to point out again the desperate need this team has for someone that can create shots here. If they don't run the offense through Randle, who do they run it through? They don't have any shot creators that can consistently carry the load. I get that fans are excited about the bench bringing energy and being among the tops in the NBA is bench scoring, etc. But it doesn't mean that you can "simply" just expand their roles. This team needs help. And it needs help at the very top of the ladder. That way we can have what I think everyone is after which is less of a need to run the offense as often through Randle. Walker (and Fournier) was supposed to do that. They haven't. Fournier can't for whatever reason. Walker? It very well be that he's physically shot and can't carry that responsibility.

I must have missed that. His point was clear to me. Even with Randle...the team could run better sets and possibly have better offense. ISO Randle is not very good. I agree.

The lack of talent is also a fact. Which is why the more intelligent posters on the board advocate staying in the draft until that changes. There isn't a team in history that won a title without drafting a STAR player...and I'd venture to say 99% of those came at or near the top of the draft. Wasting time trying to look competitive has been nothing but failure and a waste of time.

This is a .500 team give or take. The talent issues fall on the FO. The rotations and failure to make adjustments or even try to change things up is on the HC. The players can only try to do their best and if it isn't good enough...the FO/HC need to figure things out.

Yep. The front office, which has and is still the focal point of why this has been 22 years of futility is the bottom line. You can only expect so much from the plug-and-play single (not super) star players that the front office has managed to bring in for so much. Either way, you need to figure out what this team is, what the reality is and plan for it. Half in and half out? That's not going to work. Right now the East is wide open. There is no super team (thanks to Kyrie being Kyrie and Simmons being absolutely nuts). So IF they are going to try to make a play to move up then do it. But IF they don't feel that it's within the cards, then start shipping guys off to other teams that feel, in this wide open East, can do something. Many of these teams that feel they could will end up in the lottery so...

[mpharris36]

Prepare for RJs 2 star rating across the board in BAF after this coming season lol

I'll take solace that he was shooting with 41/26 splits last year 17 games in and finished 44/40. He is currently 39/31 right now through 17 games.

He will get hot at some point when everyone thought he was a bum last year.

Oh...RJ Barrett AND Michael Porter Jr I see...

[moocow007]

The Knicks offense could be better than it is, that is the point you're just missing. We're not going to contend for a title with the players we have, but we should have a much better offense than we do. You can say all these players aren't this and that, but Kemba/Fournier can score, they apparently can't with us, why aren't you asking the question of why is that?

I didn't want Kemba, he was cooked, but he should still be able to get you 15ppg, but we just don't put him in any kind of position to be successful, and you don't ask why that is. Fournier's defense sucked and I didn't want him either, but we know for certain he can score, yet he can't with us, WHY? It's not like the Magic had some great shot creator the last few seasons.

The Magic had no expectations, no pressure to do anything. A lot easier to perform when there's no pressure. Why do you think you have all these players that looked great on other teams that, when they got traded to the Yankees, absolutely stunk? It's not just about stats or boxscores or wishful thinking. It's about being able to handle pressure and expectations. Some players simply cannot do that. Other players (like Walker) may be mentally able to do that but probably can't physically anymore. Rose is probably exactly the later type. And not only is coming from a no pressure team to a high pressure cooker team something not everyone can just simply handle, putting more expectations on players than they reasonably should be expected to handle also isn't so simple. Randle right now is a buffer (a bad buffer) that allows the rest of the Knicks old and low talented players to not have to do more than they can (mentally, physically or from a talent standpoint). That's what teams top players do beyond what shows up in stats. You take him out or you significantly alter what he has to do without giving that responsibility to someone that can actually handle it, and you'll see a cascading effect down the line where guys that looked great coming off the bench will now look like shite. Lessen the focus on running the offense through Randle? Sure, IF someone show's that they can take that load. I'm honestly not sure who that person is. You tell me. It can't be Rose cause he's starting to show that he can't even carry what he needs to carry right now much less more. Who else? Until and unless Walker and Fournier steps up (if at all) there is no one else. And ergo, we are back with Randle carrying the bulk of the load. A Randle that opposing teams have been figuring out how to defend ESPECIALLY if just by "simply" defending Randle you significant increase your chances of beating the Knicks cause they don't have another sure fire guy that can carrying it in Randle's place.

What are you even going on here about? The Magic made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years with Fournier being a main offensive weapon for them. You can't compare different sports, what happens in baseball has no bearing on the NBA. We can just look at the numbers, Fournier is touching the ball 37.6 times per game, last year with the Magic that number was 46.8 and 44.4 the year before that. He's seen a significant drop in his possessions, that has nothing to do with expectations and everything to do with how he's being used and who he's playing off of. He actually got the ball more last season with the Celtics while playing with Brown, Tatum and Kemba.

The rest of the post is just a word salad, if you're going out of your way to excuse this stand and watch offense there's nothing to really say.

So you want to run the offense through Fournier? A guy that hasn't shown he can do anything as a Knick? That's the plan? I'm trying to figure out what your plan is instead of just simply not running the offense through Randle. Fournier as your no.1 guy?

[moocow007]

I'll take solace that he was shooting with 41/26 splits last year 17 games in and finished 44/40. He is currently 39/31 right now through 17 games.

He will get hot at some point when everyone thought he was a bum last year.

Oh...RJ Barrett AND Michael Porter Jr I see...

LOL yeah you'll be fine. I'm just pulling your leg. Might be time for me to step back in to BAF. Something's been missing. Can't tell if it's not enough sex or no BAF.

[Capn'O]

On the bright side... Charlotte pick is back to conveying as of today.

Man. RJ needs to start hitting his shots though. We don't have much if he doesn't look like much. That makes building forward much harder.

[robillionaire]

It really wouldn't, and he's a terrible defender now too, so the Payton comparison doesn't work.

Yes it does, Payton was also a terrible defender statistically

Russ can't play with centers, your beloved Nerlens would be bench bound, so I say we should get him just to see you suffer

He should be a bench center anyway. He just has to start here because the team is so devoid of talent and crippled.

As long as he’s on the team I’m good. Plus I’d just say the reason we were losing is because they weren’t playing him enough so it all works out

[mpharris36]

On the bright side... Charlotte pick is back to conveying as of today.

do we want it to convey this year?

[Clyde_Style]

Oh...RJ Barrett AND Michael Porter Jr I see...

LOL yeah you'll be fine. I'm just pulling your leg. Might be time for me to step back in to BAF. Something's been missing. Can't tell if it's not enough sex or no BAF.

Moral of the Story: When everything is fckd, go fck something (or fck something else up)