Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[Neeva]

Siakam has a bad contract.

I would love us acquiring that bad contract.

You would make a horrible gm no offense.

[Neeva]

Siakam is good, he's just not as good as Raps hoped he'd be, but that doesn't mean he's bad. Did you guys watch how he looked this season? Because I did, and he looks good.

If you're a top 50 player, the max pays off as opposed to having say a combo of Beasley + Prince on the books for the similar price, and Siakam is definitely a top 50 player, probably in the 30-38 range.

You guys have to realize that having a top 50 player + a replacement level player on a vet min is miles better than having 2 players around the 100-150 range for the same money, and right now Beasley and Prince are somewhere in that range.

So yeah, I'd do that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But in reality the Raps would trade him to us only if we sent a 1st round pick on top of our package, and only if they knew that that pick would be like top 12 or top 10 or smth, which it probably wouldn't be if we had Siakam on top of our core.

There is a reason most Raptors fans want to trade him
Also a reason the raptors play has taken a nose dive since he got back.

[FinnTheHuman]

Siakam is good, he's just not as good as Raps hoped he'd be, but that doesn't mean he's bad. Did you guys watch how he looked this season? Because I did, and he looks good.

If you're a top 50 player, the max pays off as opposed to having say a combo of Beasley + Prince on the books for the similar price, and Siakam is definitely a top 50 player, probably in the 30-38 range.

You guys have to realize that having a top 50 player + a replacement level player on a vet min is miles better than having 2 players around the 100-150 range for the same money, and right now Beasley and Prince are somewhere in that range.

So yeah, I'd do that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But in reality the Raps would trade him to us only if we sent a 1st round pick on top of our package, and only if they knew that that pick would be like top 12 or top 10 or smth, which it probably wouldn't be if we had Siakam on top of our core.

There is a reason most Raptors fans want to trade him
Also a reason the raptors play has taken a nose dive since he got back.

Ah, the typical vague answer that makes the poster feel like he'll come off as knowledgeable about the situation, when in the informed person's eyes, the poster just likes to make unsubstantiated claims for whatever reason.

Because I don't see how Siakam, who's posting 18/6.6/3.6/1/1 with 2.4 TO on 48.4/42.3/74.3 efficiency and playing traditionally above average defense, is hurting the team. He's -1.6 in +/- in the 7 games he's been back, in the games where they lost 6 out of 7 games, 4 of them with around -15 deficit and 2 of them around -5 deficit. Plus Siakam's return coincided with OG getting hurt in the last 3 games, and more importantly with the schedule that included Brooklyn, GSW, Bos, Por, Utah (Sac, Det).

They want to trade him because they're trying to rebuild and he's playing the same position and role as the younger Barnes, OG, and even Precious, not because they think he's on a bad contract or anything. The way he's played this season, he's making a case that he's an improved player, but the sample size is small.

That's the thing with people when talking trades on this board, you'll jump onto 'They wanna trade him so he must be bad' train in order to justify us offering very little to get him, and for what? Masai is gonna wander onto the Wolves board to see what the Wolves fans reckon Siakam's trade value is, and then he's gonna say "Oh no we're busted, they know he's trash, I'll give him away for peanuts now!"? Like he can't do what I did and then a hundred times more and then realize from his research that you're completely wrong?

I don't see why you'd post on a basketball forum if you don't want to have an informed, intelligent discussion, so please, inform yourself first, think about the information you've gathered, and then click 'Submit comment', don't just talk out of your ass because it's embarrassing and pointless.

[Neeva]

Siakam is empty stats plays like he is already on the downturn of his career, no thanks.

[FinnTheHuman]

Siakam is empty stats plays like he is already on the downturn of his career, no thanks.

Your comments are not backed with arguments, they're factually wrong and pointless. You most likely didn't even watch Siakam this year nor did you bother to take a brief look at his stats before your original reply to me. Improve the quality of your posts, because you're contributing nothing by replying to posts like mine with uninformed takes. Meanwhile, I'm adding you to my ignore list because I don't want to continue wasting my time. Goodbye.

[Neeva]

I typically hate trading 1sts but Myles Turner playing alongside KAT would be deadly. same age (25) too. a protected first, Beas + another asset (Naz?) seems conceivable. They could afford to pay him w DLo off his max.

Turner/KAT
KAT/Turner/Vandy
JMcD/Leo
Ant/Nowell
DLol/Bev

Definitely would prefer the wolves to go after Turner than Siakam. Or even much cheaper alternatives like Clarke. Or how about instead of watching Kat get owned by Valanciunas pair him up with Kat?

[KGdaBom]

Siakam has a bad contract.

I would love us acquiring that bad contract.

You would make a horrible gm no offense.

No question I'd be the best GM in the NBA.

[KGdaBom]

Siakam is empty stats plays like he is already on the downturn of his career, no thanks.

There's no such thing as empty stats. When A player makes a basket two or three points go on the board. When he gets a rebound the team gets a possession. When he gets a steal the team gains a possession. There never has been a player with empty stats and there never will be.
I'm going to agree with Finn on you have probably not even watched him play while making all these comments about how he plays. How much have you seen Siakam play this year?

[winforlose]

Siakam is empty stats plays like he is already on the downturn of his career, no thanks.

There's no such thing as empty stats. When A player makes a basket two or three points go on the board. When he gets a rebound the team gets a possession. When he gets a steal the team gains a possession. There never has been a player with empty stats and there never will be.
I'm going to agree with Finn on you have probably not even watched him play while making all these comments about how he plays. How much have you seen Siakam play this year?

Any stat that occurs when the game is out of reach is more or less empty. That said, games are not out of reach just because it is a 20 point game, I mean really garbage time when both teams are sure of the outcome. Beyond that I agree with you.

One more tiny exception is when guys steal rebounds from teammates. I hate that it and that is truly trash stats.

[shangrila]

How do we even afford Siakam?

EDIT: For reference, he earns more than Towns.

[minimus]

When Naz had toe injury I was wondering whether we should find PF/C big, rather than PF/SF. Vando and MCD look better recently, so as I said earlier we need someone like Daniel Theiss.

[minimus]

Mo Bamba?

[minimus]

What is Gupta ceiling and floor first trade as GM? I would say ceiling is Myles Turner type of role player who can be last piece of puzzle. The floor is another Naz Reid type of player: Daniel Oturu, Jalen Smith. A long term project who wont solve our problems this season, but will be in rotation next year.

[Wolveswin]

I typically hate trading 1sts but Myles Turner playing alongside KAT would be deadly. same age (25) too. a protected first, Beas + another asset (Naz?) seems conceivable. They could afford to pay him w DLo off his max.

Turner/KAT
KAT/Turner/Vandy
JMcD/Leo
Ant/Nowell
DLol/Bev

Definitely would prefer the wolves to go after Turner than Siakam. Or even much cheaper alternatives like Clarke. Or how about instead of watching Kat get owned by Valanciunas pair him up with Kat?

Turner would be ideal get. I just don’t see Pacers liking what Wolves have to offer. A third team would be needed. I wonder what they think of Ingram? Pacers have plenty of replacement bigs (with Turner out) and Ingram could be great longtime SF duo with Sabonis. Pelicans could be ready to full tank — and gamble on upside of McDaniels+.

[Klomp]

Where I pause on any of these trade discussions is what are we looking for. A lot of people here are only looking positionally at what we need, but what about stylistically? What about schematically? Everyone wants more beef inside, but does that correspond with what we are asking from these players? I doubt there will be a defensive overhaul midseason, especially when what we're doing is working, so whoever we add needs to fit in with what we're doing, as well as how any trade would affect players on the roster.

[wolves_89]

Where I pause on any of these trade discussions is what are we looking for. A lot of people here are only looking positionally at what we need, but what about stylistically? What about schematically? Everyone wants more beef inside, but does that correspond with what we are asking from these players? I doubt there will be a defensive overhaul midseason, especially when what we're doing is working, so whoever we add needs to fit in with what we're doing, as well as how any trade would affect players on the roster.

I think this is an important point. The Wolves clearly need to add a big, but the type of big matters a lot. Based on the defensive scheme, the team almost has to focus on bigs that are going to be athletic enough to switch on the perimeter and can quickly rotate to the open guy. I just don't see any way that a plodding type of big could fit defensively.

To me the ideal trade candidate would be a high end athlete who is 6-9 to 6-11, weighs 230-240 lbs, and is a plus rebounder. At this point I wouldn't mind taking a swing on a boom or bust option like Marvin Bagley. He fits the physical profile and could benefit from a change of scenery (plus he likely wouldn't cost anything beyond salary matching). Even though Bagley has not been good so far, I could see how he could really benefit from the Wolves style of play. I am curious if Finch could finally unlock his potential.

[winforlose]

Where I pause on any of these trade discussions is what are we looking for. A lot of people here are only looking positionally at what we need, but what about stylistically? What about schematically? Everyone wants more beef inside, but does that correspond with what we are asking from these players? I doubt there will be a defensive overhaul midseason, especially when what we're doing is working, so whoever we add needs to fit in with what we're doing, as well as how any trade would affect players on the roster.

I think this is an important point. The Wolves clearly need to add a big, but the type of big matters a lot. Based on the defensive scheme, the team almost has to focus on bigs that are going to be athletic enough to switch on the perimeter and can quickly rotate to the open guy. I just don't see any way that a plodding type of big could fit defensively.

To me the ideal trade candidate would be a high end athlete who is 6-9 to 6-11, weighs 230-240 lbs, and is a plus rebounder. At this point I wouldn't mind taking a swing on a boom or bust option like Marvin Bagley. He fits the physical profile and could benefit from a change of scenery (plus he likely wouldn't cost anything beyond salary matching). Even though Bagley has not been good so far, I could see how he could really benefit from the Wolves style of play. I am curious if Finch could finally unlock his potential.

Last night you saw a scheme designed to double JV so that KAT wouldn’t pick up fouls. What happened was open corner 3s and we would rush out to contest. A better team would have picked us apart doing that. You need someone big enough and strong enough to guard the Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, JV’s of the league so KAT can guard the PF. Shot blocking is also nice (which is why I like Turner,) and rebounding is the key. We are the worst defensive rebounding team, and while V8 is great, he cannot do it alone. Having MCD and KAT come back to the party will really help, but there is no substitute for a big who knows how to box out and pulls down those sweet defensive boards.

I know everyone knows this, but in case someone doesn’t I will spell it out. When the opponent brings the ball into the half court you play traditional half court defense. Barring transition plays or run backs this is usually scheme vs scheme (we either run zone or man and they run their offense,) but when they offensive rebound, the floor is essentially broken. Sometimes our defense can reset and our guys can cover, but far too often they get an open look either right at the rim or from the corner 3. Therefore, it is fair to say defensive rebounding is an extension of the defense. Our perimeter defense is actually decent relative to our numbers, but our defensive rebounding problems create perimeter defense problems.

Long story short, the defender doesn’t need to be out on the perimeter so much as securing the rebound on paint shots. For the long boards you need KAT V8 and MCD plus whoever else feels like pitching in (Ant and Bev have been good this season,) to step up and secure them.

[wolves_89]

Where I pause on any of these trade discussions is what are we looking for. A lot of people here are only looking positionally at what we need, but what about stylistically? What about schematically? Everyone wants more beef inside, but does that correspond with what we are asking from these players? I doubt there will be a defensive overhaul midseason, especially when what we're doing is working, so whoever we add needs to fit in with what we're doing, as well as how any trade would affect players on the roster.

I think this is an important point. The Wolves clearly need to add a big, but the type of big matters a lot. Based on the defensive scheme, the team almost has to focus on bigs that are going to be athletic enough to switch on the perimeter and can quickly rotate to the open guy. I just don't see any way that a plodding type of big could fit defensively.

To me the ideal trade candidate would be a high end athlete who is 6-9 to 6-11, weighs 230-240 lbs, and is a plus rebounder. At this point I wouldn't mind taking a swing on a boom or bust option like Marvin Bagley. He fits the physical profile and could benefit from a change of scenery (plus he likely wouldn't cost anything beyond salary matching). Even though Bagley has not been good so far, I could see how he could really benefit from the Wolves style of play. I am curious if Finch could finally unlock his potential.

Last night you saw a scheme designed to double JV so that KAT wouldn’t pick up fouls. What happened was open corner 3s and we would rush out to contest. A better team would have picked us apart doing that. You need someone big enough and strong enough to guard the Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, JV’s of the league so KAT can guard the PF. Shot blocking is also nice (which is why I like Turner,) and rebounding is the key. We are the worst defensive rebounding team, and while V8 is great, he cannot do it alone. Having MCD and KAT come back to the party will really help, but there is no substitute for a big who knows how to box out and pulls down those sweet defensive boards.

I know everyone knows this, but in case someone doesn’t I will spell it out. When the opponent brings the ball into the half court you play traditional half court defense. Barring transition plays or run backs this is usually scheme vs scheme (we either run zone or man and they run their offense,) but when they offensive rebound, the floor is essentially broken. Sometimes our defense can reset and our guys can cover, but far too often they get an open look either right at the rim or from the corner 3. Therefore, it is fair to say defensive rebounding is an extension of the defense. Our perimeter defense is actually decent relative to our numbers, but our defensive rebounding problems create perimeter defense problems.

Long story short, the defender doesn’t need to be out on the perimeter so much as securing the rebound on paint shots. For the long boards you need KAT V8 and MCD plus whoever else feels like pitching in (Ant and Bev have been good this season,) to step up and secure them.

For most of the last year I'd have agreed with you about the Wolves needing a really large PF/C, but I've shifted that view based on the Wolves defensive scheme and the success they are having with it. At this point, I think having a big on the court who is a step slow in rotations would kill what is making the defense successful. I still firmly believe that Minnesota needs to add a guy with more size, but it needs to be someone who is extremely mobile.

[winforlose]

I think this is an important point. The Wolves clearly need to add a big, but the type of big matters a lot. Based on the defensive scheme, the team almost has to focus on bigs that are going to be athletic enough to switch on the perimeter and can quickly rotate to the open guy. I just don't see any way that a plodding type of big could fit defensively.

To me the ideal trade candidate would be a high end athlete who is 6-9 to 6-11, weighs 230-240 lbs, and is a plus rebounder. At this point I wouldn't mind taking a swing on a boom or bust option like Marvin Bagley. He fits the physical profile and could benefit from a change of scenery (plus he likely wouldn't cost anything beyond salary matching). Even though Bagley has not been good so far, I could see how he could really benefit from the Wolves style of play. I am curious if Finch could finally unlock his potential.

Last night you saw a scheme designed to double JV so that KAT wouldn’t pick up fouls. What happened was open corner 3s and we would rush out to contest. A better team would have picked us apart doing that. You need someone big enough and strong enough to guard the Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, JV’s of the league so KAT can guard the PF. Shot blocking is also nice (which is why I like Turner,) and rebounding is the key. We are the worst defensive rebounding team, and while V8 is great, he cannot do it alone. Having MCD and KAT come back to the party will really help, but there is no substitute for a big who knows how to box out and pulls down those sweet defensive boards.

I know everyone knows this, but in case someone doesn’t I will spell it out. When the opponent brings the ball into the half court you play traditional half court defense. Barring transition plays or run backs this is usually scheme vs scheme (we either run zone or man and they run their offense,) but when they offensive rebound, the floor is essentially broken. Sometimes our defense can reset and our guys can cover, but far too often they get an open look either right at the rim or from the corner 3. Therefore, it is fair to say defensive rebounding is an extension of the defense. Our perimeter defense is actually decent relative to our numbers, but our defensive rebounding problems create perimeter defense problems.

Long story short, the defender doesn’t need to be out on the perimeter so much as securing the rebound on paint shots. For the long boards you need KAT V8 and MCD plus whoever else feels like pitching in (Ant and Bev have been good this season,) to step up and secure them.

For most of the last year I'd have agreed with you about the Wolves needing a really large PF/C, but I've shifted that view based on the Wolves defensive scheme and the success they are having with it. At this point, I think having a big on the court who is a step slow in rotations would kill what is making the defense successful. I still firmly believe that Minnesota needs to add a guy with more size, but it needs to be someone who is extremely mobile.

Please elaborate. What part of the scheme falls apart?

[wolves_89]

Last night you saw a scheme designed to double JV so that KAT wouldn’t pick up fouls. What happened was open corner 3s and we would rush out to contest. A better team would have picked us apart doing that. You need someone big enough and strong enough to guard the Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, JV’s of the league so KAT can guard the PF. Shot blocking is also nice (which is why I like Turner,) and rebounding is the key. We are the worst defensive rebounding team, and while V8 is great, he cannot do it alone. Having MCD and KAT come back to the party will really help, but there is no substitute for a big who knows how to box out and pulls down those sweet defensive boards.

I know everyone knows this, but in case someone doesn’t I will spell it out. When the opponent brings the ball into the half court you play traditional half court defense. Barring transition plays or run backs this is usually scheme vs scheme (we either run zone or man and they run their offense,) but when they offensive rebound, the floor is essentially broken. Sometimes our defense can reset and our guys can cover, but far too often they get an open look either right at the rim or from the corner 3. Therefore, it is fair to say defensive rebounding is an extension of the defense. Our perimeter defense is actually decent relative to our numbers, but our defensive rebounding problems create perimeter defense problems.

Long story short, the defender doesn’t need to be out on the perimeter so much as securing the rebound on paint shots. For the long boards you need KAT V8 and MCD plus whoever else feels like pitching in (Ant and Bev have been good this season,) to step up and secure them.

For most of the last year I'd have agreed with you about the Wolves needing a really large PF/C, but I've shifted that view based on the Wolves defensive scheme and the success they are having with it. At this point, I think having a big on the court who is a step slow in rotations would kill what is making the defense successful. I still firmly believe that Minnesota needs to add a guy with more size, but it needs to be someone who is extremely mobile.

Please elaborate. What part of the scheme falls apart?

The way the defense has been working is that everyone on the court needs to be able to quickly switch onto the open guy or rotate to help close off opponent drives. It only works if every player is athletic enough to make that happen. If the Wolves have a plus sized guy on the court who is a bit slow footed it would lead to defensive break downs. The most impressive thing about the Wolves so far this year is that guys are quick enough to frequently switch on defense while still maintaining good positioning. If even one defender is a step slow it leaves someone with an open shot or driving opportunity.