Moderators: PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier, penbeast0, trex_8063
penbeast0 wrote:I don't think that's unreasonable. In a normal system that revolves around a PG and/or post up center, Draymond isn't the strong playmaker he has become in the Warriors system. Without the playmaking, Draymond isn't close to the offensive player that Marion is even in the pre-Nash Suns (though still a better defender and that's not a slight to Marion who was a great defender).
70sFan wrote:Shaquille O'Neal got the dunk 90% of the time when he wasn't doubled in the post. People don't realize how few dunks Shaq really got from the post. Usually, he took a right handed hook shots or short fadeaways/one handed push shots. He wasn't more efficient from the block than someone like Kareem or Hakeem and efficiency is not what made him GOAT-level post player.
70sFan wrote:penbeast0 wrote:I don't think that's unreasonable. In a normal system that revolves around a PG and/or post up center, Draymond isn't the strong playmaker he has become in the Warriors system. Without the playmaking, Draymond isn't close to the offensive player that Marion is even in the pre-Nash Suns (though still a better defender and that's not a slight to Marion who was a great defender).
A DPOY defender who could pass the ball so well is valuable in any system.
penbeast0 wrote:70sFan wrote:penbeast0 wrote:I don't think that's unreasonable. In a normal system that revolves around a PG and/or post up center, Draymond isn't the strong playmaker he has become in the Warriors system. Without the playmaking, Draymond isn't close to the offensive player that Marion is even in the pre-Nash Suns (though still a better defender and that's not a slight to Marion who was a great defender).
A DPOY defender who could pass the ball so well is valuable in any system.
As is a very good defender who can defend 3 positions, is a great rebounder, finisher, and energy guy like Marion. That isn't a slight to Draymond, I think a lot of Marion. But good passer who doesn't have the ball in his hands much and doesn't shoot well, isn't going to be much of an offensive bonus whereas in Golden State, they take full advantage of Green's skillset in a way many other teams wouldn't.
Owly wrote:70sFan wrote:Shaquille O'Neal got the dunk 90% of the time when he wasn't doubled in the post. People don't realize how few dunks Shaq really got from the post. Usually, he took a right handed hook shots or short fadeaways/one handed push shots. He wasn't more efficient from the block than someone like Kareem or Hakeem and efficiency is not what made him GOAT-level post player.
This kind of depends.
Because I don't think anyone thinks he got 90%. And I can't speak to how he got them.
But he was at least, at the start, a huge outlier volume dunker. IIRC around his arrival the league leaders (or 2nd to him once he arrived) were circa 150s a season, around or slightly under 2 a game and he doubled it.
70sFan wrote:The massive amount of Shaq dunks came from offensive rebounds, inside finishes or transition buckets. So far, I tracked 30 Shaq games from 1999/00 season and 67% of Shaq's post shots are hooks, fadeaways, one handed shots and finger rolls (295 out of 440 post shots I tracked so far). That's two thirds of his post shots and I included lob finishes when Shaq was fronted ect. Majority of the shots I didn't included were not dunks either.
I can't say quickly how many of Shaq's post shots were dunks, but I'd guess it's less than 20%. As I said, over 67% of his post shots came away from the basket. Yet some people believe that Shaq dunked on defenders all the time. I've heard that Shaq would average 40 ppg on 70% today because of "lack of centers". The Shaq myth is massive, because people only remember the highlight plays.
Texas Chuck wrote:70sFan wrote:Texas Chuck wrote:Tim Duncan was a center
Duncan certainly was a center, come on
Let's take a look, shall we?
Played with Admiral through 03. Duncan is the PF.
Then 3 years of Rasho. Duncan is clearly the PF.
Then Oberto. Who is shorter than Duncan, but plays a center's game. Something we also see along the way with Malik Rose and later DeJuan Blair. And of course Splitter was only a center.
Did Duncan play center? Of course he did. But so did his peers KG and Dirk yet we never label them a center because they aren't the GOAT PF we need to label something else so our favorite guy can be the GOAT PF. When its all nonsense because no matter what position you call Duncan he was better than both of them as a basketball player.
But Tim Duncan spent the bulk of his prime playing next to a center. So calling him a PF needs to stop being an issue for people.
cdubbz wrote:Donte DiVincenzo will outplay Poole this season.
McBubbles wrote:Every narrative about LeBron.
Steph Curry having so much gravity that "even if he doesn't play well on the box score he can't actually have bad games", as if he's the only player that has gravity and no one else warps defences without touching the ball ._. I'm not going to be obtuse and pretend like his isn't unique but the jerking off of it was pretty intense for awhile.
Kevin Garnett's scoring troubles.
MJ's rustiness after coming back from his retirement.
Kobe's "inefficiency".
McBubbles wrote:Every narrative about LeBron.
Steph Curry having so much gravity that "even if he doesn't play well on the box score he can't actually have bad games", as if he's the only player that has gravity and no one else warps defences without touching the ball ._. I'm not going to be obtuse and pretend like his isn't unique but the jerking off of it was pretty intense for awhile.
Kevin Garnett's scoring troubles.
MJ's rustiness after coming back from his retirement.
Kobe's "inefficiency".
falcolombardi wrote:McBubbles wrote:Every narrative about LeBron.
Steph Curry having so much gravity that "even if he doesn't play well on the box score he can't actually have bad games", as if he's the only player that has gravity and no one else warps defences without touching the ball ._. I'm not going to be obtuse and pretend like his isn't unique but the jerking off of it was pretty intense for awhile.
Kevin Garnett's scoring troubles.
MJ's rustiness after coming back from his retirement.
Kobe's "inefficiency".
that seems unlikely since some of them are directly opposite of each other negative and positive
which ones do you mean specifically?
positive or negative. McBubbles wrote:falcolombardi wrote:McBubbles wrote:Every narrative about LeBron.
Steph Curry having so much gravity that "even if he doesn't play well on the box score he can't actually have bad games", as if he's the only player that has gravity and no one else warps defences without touching the ball ._. I'm not going to be obtuse and pretend like his isn't unique but the jerking off of it was pretty intense for awhile.
Kevin Garnett's scoring troubles.
MJ's rustiness after coming back from his retirement.
Kobe's "inefficiency".
that seems unlikely since some of them are directly opposite of each other negative and positive
which ones do you mean specifically?
Genuinely, every narrative about LeBron
He can take any team to the Finals regardless of conference, he can guard 1-5, he could have won MVP every year.
He limits his team's offensive ceilings with LeBron ball, he needs stacked teams to win, he stopped playing defence in Miami.
Etc.
ceiling raiser wrote:Another one - The efficacy of Kareem's skyhook and Kareem's offensive impact as a whole. I increasingly believe he is clearly one level below the best offensive big men all-time (Shaq and Dirk, tbh I can see Jokic here as well), and might be below several others as well (I might take Hakeem's offensive game)
70sFan wrote:What do you think - how efficient Kareem's skyhook was in your opinion? I have the data, but I'd like to see your guess at first
Why do you think Hakeem has a case over Kareem as an offensive player?
- Kareem was a bit more efficient isolation scorer on higher volume,
- Kareem was MUCH better passer, this can't be discussed,
- Kareem drew more defensive attention than Hakeem,
- Kareem had to deal with soft doubles without much spacing around him (lack of illegal defense rules in the 1970s),
- Hakeem was easier to front, which forced him to catch the ball further away from the basket,
- Hakeem was far more reliant on the left block, he didn't play much on the right side,
- Kareem was a better screener, though Hakeem's midrange game made him more dangerous in P&P situations,
- Kareem was more active without the ball and his positioning without the ball was more beneficial to his teammates,
- Kareem was an amazing outlet passer,
- Hakeem was much better shooter.
I don't think Shaq was a better offensive player than Jabbar either, but at least his off-ball game, offensive rebounding and ability to draw fouls make it interesting debate. With Hakeem - not so much. Olajuwon has very few minor advantages over Kareem, that's not enough to overcome massive advantage Kareem has in other aspects.
ceiling raiser wrote:My guess is he converted at a .660 TS%. I would be interested in the data if you have it (and appreciate your data/research/footage immensely). If it is appreciably higher I would have to reevaluate my belief.
It's almost entirely a matter of how well I think both would translate into the modern game. Hakeem had a power game, deep two shooting range (that could extend to the three), and a finesse guard-esque scoring skillset, which I think would work tremendously today.
Does this advantage continue or disappear when adjusted for the playoffs?
I also believe the talent differential of supporting casts makes a difference (though obviously with Rudy T Hakeem had better spacing than Kareem ever did)
This is hard to tell. The lane was more clogged in the 70s than it was in the late 80s/early 90s, but Hakeem was the sole focus of opposing defenses for some years
I don't disagree, however I will note that very few teams exploited the illegal defense rules by placing non-shooters beyond the arc, at least through the early 90s. Hakeem also faced a lot of hard doubles since he was the sole option defensively.
I don't disagree, but Hakeem had superior shooting range.
I don't think this is inherently a weakness since he could play inside-out pretty consistently, but any data on this would be interesting.
I don't disagree, though I wonder how different they were in screening ability.
I think this is negated by the fact that Hakeem was a superior spot-up shooter, especially from range.
Sure, but how many possessions a game does this impact?
I actually think offensive rebounding is an overrated aspect of today's game given the prevalence of three-point shooting. As such, I think all-time offensive rebounders such as Shaq, Moses, Wilt would be less impactful today (and again, I judge players based on how they would be in the present league).
70sFan wrote:I think you overestimate how efficient you can be in isolation
My numbers gives 1974-79 Kareem a 56.5 FG% on 9.4 skyhooks per game. With the addition of fouls drawn, it gives us around 58.5 TS%.
Is there any reason to believe that Kareem's game wouldn't translate? I mean, he was a very good ball-hander for his size in an era with restricted ball-handling rules. Kareem also had a power game - he was much better at establishing deep position than Hakeem.
Kareem had worse talent around him in 1977 and 1978 than Hakeem in 1993 or 1994 - these are the seasons which I have the most games from.
I mean, it's always hard to adjust for eras. Kareem faced considerably more soft and hard doubles than Hakeem though, that's not up to debate.
This idea of exploiting illegal defense already eixsted in the 1994 and it made Hakeem's life far easier than earlier in his career (of course along with improved spacing).
It's true, but you don't want Hakeem to take contested midrange jumpers all the time. He's a good shooter, but he's not Dirk from there.
If you don't feel strongly about offensive rebounding, then how you can have Shaq ahead of Kareem offensively?
