What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?

Moderators: Domejandro, infinite11285, Harry Garris, ken6199, Dirk, bisme37, KingDavid, bwgood77, zimpy27, cupcakesnake

ceiling raiser
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,501
And1: 3,728
Joined: Jan 27, 2013

What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#1 » by ceiling raiser » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 pm

Is this in the back of your mind? Or just mine?

I'm one of Kobe's biggest detractors, however (I'm aging myself here), I watched Shaq from his rookie season. He was at the best combination of mobility and strength, and his conditioning peaked, however was he really that much better? Shaq really played at an MVP level from 93-94 to 02-03, and was top 10 in the league 92-93 and 03-05 (possibly 05-06 but by the playoffs he was a lower tier all-star imo).

The difference: Kobe Bryant.

Am I nuts?

(To a lesser degree, I credit Phil Jackson, and not facing the Stockton-Malone Jazz.)
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
theforumblue
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,677
And1: 4,847
Joined: Feb 18, 2012

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#2 » by theforumblue » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:16 pm

I read here that any all star wing would've also won with Shaq, so Kobe wasn't all that.
screw these absolute garbage refs
User avatar
Dr Aki
RealGM
Posts: 34,292
And1: 29,109
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#3 » by Dr Aki » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:23 pm

Shaq played with a ton of all star wings

He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.

Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.

And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.
Image
payton2kemp
Starter
Posts: 2,238
And1: 4,230
Joined: Dec 15, 2014
Location: I can't tell you. I'm an investigator.
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#4 » by payton2kemp » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:26 pm

You are wrong. Shaq was the finals MVP for a reason, Kobe was the 2nd option on those teams for a reason. Also he didn't play with tonne of all star wings, the only other guy was Penny, unless you're counting Lebron when Shaq was way past his prime lol.
gabri3l3
Junior
Posts: 378
And1: 468
Joined: Jun 25, 2015
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#5 » by gabri3l3 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:31 pm

Kobe & Shaq needed each other. It's as simple as that.
KembaWalker
General Manager
Posts: 9,417
And1: 10,140
Joined: Dec 22, 2011
 

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#6 » by KembaWalker » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:33 pm

it can be simultaneously true that Shaq was the best player on the team and also that he still needed Kobe to win the titles
Image
Cavsfansince84
RealGM
Posts: 13,379
And1: 10,184
Joined: Jun 13, 2017
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#7 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:37 pm

00-02 was pretty clearly Shaq's peak. Kobe was semi injured in 00 and only an all star yet the Lakers still won the title that year.
User avatar
Grumpy Heat Fan
General Manager
Posts: 8,191
And1: 8,302
Joined: Dec 09, 2011
Location: Miami, Florida
     

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#8 » by Grumpy Heat Fan » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:37 pm

therealozzykhan wrote:You are wrong. Shaq was the finals MVP for a reason, Kobe was the 2nd option on those teams for a reason. Also he didn't play with tonne of all star wings, the only other guy was Penny, unless you're counting Lebron when Shaq was way past his prime lol.


You forgot Dwyane Wade and the championship Shaq won with him?
"As for me personally, I don't truly care how much I make these days, my main focus is on playing for a winner." - Dirk Nowitzki, July 2016
Statlanta
RealGM
Posts: 12,448
And1: 9,097
Joined: Mar 06, 2016

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#9 » by Statlanta » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:55 pm

Who got the bigger defensive matchups and attention?
Dikembe Mutumbo, Yao Ming, Greg Ostertag, Rik Smits, Vlade Divac, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Arvydas Sabonis, Ben Wallace

Aaron McKie, Cuttino Mobley, Jeff Hornacek, Jalen Rose, Doug Christie, Sean Elliot, Bruce Bowen, Steve Smith, Rip Hamilton
East #1 Draft Picks: Fultz, Banchero, Wiggins, Cuninigham
West #1 Draft Picks: Edwards, WIlliamson, Ayton, Towns
thebigbird
Head Coach
Posts: 7,353
And1: 19,897
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#10 » by thebigbird » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:03 pm

Shaq averaged 38/17 in the 2000 nba finals while Kobe averaged 15.6.
User avatar
ImSlower
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,681
And1: 6,414
Joined: Jan 06, 2011
Location: STL-ish
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#11 » by ImSlower » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:09 pm

Kobe was amazing.

Shaq was a world beater.
Buckeye-NBAFan
General Manager
Posts: 7,961
And1: 4,522
Joined: Jun 25, 2004

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#12 » by Buckeye-NBAFan » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:14 pm

Grumpy Heat Fan wrote:
therealozzykhan wrote:You are wrong. Shaq was the finals MVP for a reason, Kobe was the 2nd option on those teams for a reason. Also he didn't play with tonne of all star wings, the only other guy was Penny, unless you're counting Lebron when Shaq was way past his prime lol.


You forgot Dwyane Wade and the championship Shaq won with him?


I think the op is arguing Wade is better than Kobe because Shaq was worse in 2006 than he was during the Kobe championship years.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 42,313
And1: 22,209
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#13 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:16 pm

Dr Aki wrote:Shaq played with a ton of all star wings

He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.

Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.

And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.


He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...
User avatar
Dr Aki
RealGM
Posts: 34,292
And1: 29,109
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#14 » by Dr Aki » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:38 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:Shaq played with a ton of all star wings

He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.

Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.

And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.


He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...


maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine
Image
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 42,313
And1: 22,209
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#15 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:42 pm

Dr Aki wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:Shaq played with a ton of all star wings

He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.

Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.

And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.


He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...


maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine


If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.
Doranku
Veteran
Posts: 2,904
And1: 5,665
Joined: Feb 21, 2020
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#16 » by Doranku » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:45 pm

Kobe was a pretty clear #2 in 2000 (although he did bail Shaq out in game 7 against Portland), but he led the playoffs in both '01 and '02 in 4th quarter scoring @ 8 ppg on 49% shooting. He was the best closer in the game and you couldn't have just replaced him with Vince Carter or Ray Allen and expect a 3peat like some people seem to insinuate.
User avatar
Dr Aki
RealGM
Posts: 34,292
And1: 29,109
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#17 » by Dr Aki » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:49 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...


maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine


If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.


teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners
Image
BloodNinja
Analyst
Posts: 3,539
And1: 5,562
Joined: Mar 05, 2016

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#18 » by BloodNinja » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:52 pm

Dr Aki wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:
maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine


If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.


teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners
Teams also hang division champions banners
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 42,313
And1: 22,209
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#19 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:54 pm

Dr Aki wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:
maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine


If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.


teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners


You know teams DO hang conference championship banners, right? But you're now confusing PLAYER success measured by their team, and team success. They two aren't the same thing
User avatar
Dr Aki
RealGM
Posts: 34,292
And1: 29,109
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

Re: What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won? 

Post#20 » by Dr Aki » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:04 am

BloodNinja wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.


teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners
Teams also hang division champions banners


sorry, i was unaware some teams did such a thing
Image

Return to The General Board