What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?

[Lawyershawn]

Kobe and Shaq were equivalents.

[VanWest82]

Shaq was the most responsible for their threepeat. Kobe was a great 1b but Shaq was 1a more often than not and on/offs from that time easily support Shaq as the more important Laker.

[celticfan42487]

We're not

[Myth]

Shaq played with a ton of all star wings

He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.

Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.

And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.

He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...

maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine

If hardware is the only determining factor, then Shaq has 3 pieces of hardware that Kobe doesn’t have from 00-02. But the topic of this thread is asking us to look a bit deeper.

[Lala870]

OP been on his skip bayless game recently

[ThumbsUpBaby]

Shaq played with a ton of all star wings

He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.

Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.

And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.

And then there's the argument that Kobe needed a superstar or at least a star big man to win it all.

The correct answer is this: Shaq and Kobe needed each other. Shaq was definitely the better player at the time, but Kobe was instrumental to his success.

[dhsilv2]

He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...

maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine

If hardware is the only determining factor, then Shaq has 3 pieces of hardware that Kobe doesn’t have from 00-02. But the topic of this thread is asking us to look a bit deeper.

By the logic of "did you or did yo not win", the NBA citizen ship award is the same as the NBA MVP or a ring. Just silly to look at player success by such narrow and extreme measures. It's the reason people HAVE to bring up Horry constantly and imply he's better than Kobe or the likes just to point out how STUPID these win or nothing views are.

[dhsilv2]

teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners

Teams also hang division champions banners

sorry, i was unaware some teams did such a thing

Ah, you're the kinda fan who thinks Robert Horry was more successful that Shaq, Kobe, and Magic. I'll start tagging you in all threads about ring can't as the official Robert Horry guy! And the great part about this argument is that being an allstar, or all nba, or mvp, or finals mvp. None of that matters because your standard is title or nothing. Nothing else matters.

[Dr Aki]

Teams also hang division champions banners

sorry, i was unaware some teams did such a thing

Ah, you're the kinda fan who thinks Robert Horry was more successful that Shaq, Kobe, and Magic. I'll start tagging you in all threads about ring can't as the official Robert Horry guy! And the great part about this argument is that being an allstar, or all nba, or mvp, or finals mvp. None of that matters because your standard is title or nothing. Nothing else matters.

you're conflating individual and team success.

did shaq have team success in 1995 and 1996? depends on your definition of success

in laker land, no ring, no success

if you're going to bring horry into, this, then yes, his teams obviously had more team success than shaq's and kobe's teams

[art_tatum]

Shaq went to the finals with penny. Won with wade tho he was at the tail of his prime there, with wade rightfully the fmvp.

Kobe needs a elite top playing bigman more than Shaq needed a elite topplaying wing (see post shaq pre gasol) Ofc it's harder to win without both, Prime Shaq would've gone to the finals and won in place of Dwight Howard in that 09 magic team. Where as iono if prime Kobe could've led a good role playing team to the finals by himself. Say replace turk with Kobe and Dwight with a role playing center.

[Pennebaker]

Is this in the back of your mind? Or just mine?

I'm one of Kobe's biggest detractors, however (I'm aging myself here), I watched Shaq from his rookie season. He was at the best combination of mobility and strength, and his conditioning peaked, however was he really that much better? Shaq really played at an MVP level from 93-94 to 02-03, and was top 10 in the league 92-93 and 03-05 (possibly 05-06 but by the playoffs he was a lower tier all-star imo).

The difference: Kobe Bryant.

Am I nuts?

(To a lesser degree, I credit Phil Jackson, and not facing the Stockton-Malone Jazz.)

Ranking in importance to the Lakers winning

1. Phil Jackson
2. Shaq
3. Kobe

When Shaq and Phil Jackson left, Kobe had the Lakers all to himself and he had a chance to prove that he was the main reason the Lakers won, but unfortunately the Lakers sucked.

Phil Jackson returned, the Lakers won again. Not a coincidence. Phil Jackson has 11 rings.

[Pointgod]

Is this in the back of your mind? Or just mine?

I'm one of Kobe's biggest detractors, however (I'm aging myself here), I watched Shaq from his rookie season. He was at the best combination of mobility and strength, and his conditioning peaked, however was he really that much better? Shaq really played at an MVP level from 93-94 to 02-03, and was top 10 in the league 92-93 and 03-05 (possibly 05-06 but by the playoffs he was a lower tier all-star imo).

The difference: Kobe Bryant.

Am I nuts?

(To a lesser degree, I credit Phil Jackson, and not facing the Stockton-Malone Jazz.)

You have to give credit to both guys. Shaq couldn’t get it done with Penny but he was able to get it done with Wade and a bunch of vets which was essentially his last gasp to say **** you to the Lakers. Kobe was able to make 3 straight finals with Gasol(no where near as dominant as Shaq) and best Shaq in the ring count.

It’s absolutely disgusting how much hate Kobe gets and how his first 3 rings are thrown in the trash despite him putting up first option numbers through the playoffs.

[Pythagoras]

Shaq went to the finals with penny. Won with wade tho he was at the tail of his prime there, with wade rightfully the fmvp.

Kobe needs a elite top playing bigman more than Shaq needed a elite topplaying wing (see post shaq pre gasol) Ofc it's harder to win without both, Prime Shaq would've gone to the finals and won in place of Dwight Howard in that 09 magic team. Where as iono if prime Kobe could've led a good role playing team to the finals by himself. Say replace turk with Kobe and Dwight with a role playing center.

Shaq making the Finals with Penny is not evidence he needed an elite wing less than Kobe needed an elite big. Before injuries killed his career, Penny was every bit as impactful as Pau ever was. Penny made 3 all-NBA teams, two of them being 1st team, and had a top 5 MVP finish in his career. In Shaq’s last year in Orlando he missed 28 games, and the Magic went 20-8 in those games (Penny played all 82). That comes out to a 58 win pace in an 82 game season. The year after Shaq left the Magic Penny played in 59 games and the Magic won 38 of those games (53 win pace in 82 games).

[Sedale Threatt]

Is this in the back of your mind? Or just mine?

I'm one of Kobe's biggest detractors, however (I'm aging myself here), I watched Shaq from his rookie season. He was at the best combination of mobility and strength, and his conditioning peaked, however was he really that much better? Shaq really played at an MVP level from 93-94 to 02-03, and was top 10 in the league 92-93 and 03-05 (possibly 05-06 but by the playoffs he was a lower tier all-star imo).

The difference: Kobe Bryant.

Am I nuts?

(To a lesser degree, I credit Phil Jackson, and not facing the Stockton-Malone Jazz.)

Ranking in importance to the Lakers winning

1. Phil Jackson
2. Shaq
3. Kobe

When Shaq and Phil Jackson left, Kobe had the Lakers all to himself and he had a chance to prove that he was the main reason the Lakers won, but unfortunately the Lakers sucked.

Phil Jackson returned, the Lakers won again. Not a coincidence. Phil Jackson has 11 rings.

Phil Jackson also coached Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Scottie Pippen and Pau Gasol.

I love Phil. We were getting our dicks kicked in every year in the playoffs before he showed up in 1999 to push us over the hump. But that's exactly what happened -- he pushed us over. He didn't wave a magic wand and conjure arguably the greatest 1-2 punch in NBA history. Shaq was already one of the best players in history, and Kobe was going to be the same even if I'd coached him. Now, he taught them how to win, and prevented said pairing from murdering each other. But at the end of the day, it's a players league, and no coach can win anything of importance without elite talent. The converse is not true.

It was the same thing when he came back. We were barely a .500 team and didn't win a playoff series in his first two years, joining the ignominious 3-1 chokers club. Then we added Gasol and a few other key pieces to push our talent back to the requisite level, and then we won again.

So again, full credit to Phil. He's an amazing, amazing coach. One of a kind. But at the end of the day, he's just that -- a coach.

[formula 400]

kobe and shaq couldnt beat prime cwebb and prime peja (who btw is better than bird in some eyes) geez

[Michael Jackson]

Kobe & Shaq needed each other. It's as simple as that.

This. Yes that simple

[DonaldSanders]

Ranking in importance to the Lakers winning

1. Phil Jackson
2. Shaq
3. Kobe

When Shaq and Phil Jackson left, Kobe had the Lakers all to himself and he had a chance to prove that he was the main reason the Lakers won, but unfortunately the Lakers sucked.

Phil Jackson returned, the Lakers won again. Not a coincidence. Phil Jackson has 11 rings.

This is ridiculous revisionism. Phil Jackson left for ONE YEAR lol. When he came back they had two 40 game win seasons before they got Pau Gasol.

Phil needs the greats more than the greats need him, just like all coaches.

Shaq played with a ton of all star wings

He didn't achieve success until Kobe/Phil and then with DWade.

Based on that, Shaq needed at least a superstar wing to get him rings, and not just any all star wing.

And not just on the offensive end either, Kobe and Wade were elite defensive players in the one package as well.

He made the NBA finals in 1995 in his 3rd year...

maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine

Don't forget that Shaq's Magic are the only team to defeat MJ's Bulls in the playoffs between (or during obviously) the two 3-peats. The Bulls may not have been at their peak but Jordan played 17 regular season games and played a round of the playoffs before the series averaging 31.5ppg.

I'm a big MJ fan but everyone makes excuses for the Bulls/MJ this year. Yeah it's not the peak Bulls but it's not like Michael rolled out of a taxi from the White Sox and started playing. Making the Finals and beating MJ during the 90s is one of the better non-title runs.

[LAL1947]

Don't forget that Shaq's Magic are the only team to defeat MJ's Bulls in the playoffs between (or during obviously) the two 3-peats. The Bulls may not have been at their peak but Jordan played 17 regular season games and played a round of the playoffs before the series averaging 31.5ppg.

I'm a big MJ fan but everyone makes excuses for the Bulls/MJ this year. Yeah it's not the peak Bulls but it's not like Michael rolled out of a taxi from the White Sox and started playing.

Umm... he kinda did do exactly that? MJ missed the entire 1993-94 season and then only decided to play basketball again in time to make 17 games in 1994-95, as you pointed out.

[nzd07]

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2000

[bullsaficianado]

No Kobe wouldn't have had that 3peat without Shaq. He fed off the double teams they gave Shaq. Shaq was almost unstoppable in the paint in his prime. When Kobe repeated without Shaq he had a prime Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum. They both needed each other.