What if we were all wrong, and Kobe was the main reason the Lakers won?

[Ell Curry]

Shaq was better, but how many guys would have 3 peated as his #2, having to do the perimeter ballhandling and scoring when he had trouble with free throws and just being a big guy in crunch time? A ton of players would have gotten 1, there's a select few who would have gotten 2, but 3, even in their peak? Post-Jordan, I'd say only Lebron, Wade, CP3, KD and Curry. I think the rest (Harden, Nash, Pierce, Lillard) would have gotten 1-2.

[DonaldSanders]

Don't forget that Shaq's Magic are the only team to defeat MJ's Bulls in the playoffs between (or during obviously) the two 3-peats. The Bulls may not have been at their peak but Jordan played 17 regular season games and played a round of the playoffs before the series averaging 31.5ppg.

I'm a big MJ fan but everyone makes excuses for the Bulls/MJ this year. Yeah it's not the peak Bulls but it's not like Michael rolled out of a taxi from the White Sox and started playing.

Umm... he kinda did do exactly that? MJ missed the entire 1993-94 season and then only decided to play basketball again in time to make 17 games in 1994-95, as you pointed out.

That's not rolling out of a taxi -- to me that would be going straight to the playoffs without any time to get in shape.

After MJ came back Chicago lost 2/3, then ripped off 12 wins in the final 14 games of the season. The first game he played in was 3/19/95 and the first game of the Orlando series was 5/7/95. That's over a month and a half and 21 games played. In the Orlando series MJ had 40pt, 38pt, and 39pt games. Oh, btw he lead the playoffs that year in BPM.

[bubonicphoniks]

When you say "we" it assumes I agree with you to begin with.

Which I don't.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Don't forget that Shaq's Magic are the only team to defeat MJ's Bulls in the playoffs between (or during obviously) the two 3-peats. The Bulls may not have been at their peak but Jordan played 17 regular season games and played a round of the playoffs before the series averaging 31.5ppg.

I'm a big MJ fan but everyone makes excuses for the Bulls/MJ this year. Yeah it's not the peak Bulls but it's not like Michael rolled out of a taxi from the White Sox and started playing.

Umm... he kinda did do exactly that? MJ missed the entire 1993-94 season and then only decided to play basketball again in time to make 17 games in 1994-95, as you pointed out.

That's not rolling out of a taxi -- to me that would be going straight to the playoffs without any time to get in shape.

After MJ came back Chicago lost 2/3, then ripped off 12 wins in the final 14 games of the season. The first game he played in was 3/19/95 and the first game of the Orlando series was 5/7/95. That's over a month and a half and 21 games played. In the Orlando series MJ had 40pt, 38pt, and 39pt games. Oh, btw he lead the playoffs that year in BPM.

It doesn’t fit the agenda lol. Hey at least this guy knew he played some games in 95. Lots of folks out there legit don’t think he played that year at all. Lol no joke. When I have them look it up on their phone they get all confused it’s quite hilarious.

[trickshot]

With all due respect to Kobe Shaq was the head of the snake defenses had to try and kill every night. It's more about how brutally effective Shaq was. To put it in perspective the guy had a disgusting 70% efficiency in the paint on disgustingly high volume. That's akin to giving up open layups for an entire game. You have to stop it or you're not winning that game, period. His gravity in the paint could only be compared to an actual black hole level threat. It's also however true he needed Kobe to win.

[LAL1947]

Umm... he kinda did do exactly that? MJ missed the entire 1993-94 season and then only decided to play basketball again in time to make 17 games in 1994-95, as you pointed out.

That's not rolling out of a taxi -- to me that would be going straight to the playoffs without any time to get in shape.

After MJ came back Chicago lost 2/3, then ripped off 12 wins in the final 14 games of the season. The first game he played in was 3/19/95 and the first game of the Orlando series was 5/7/95. That's over a month and a half and 21 games played. In the Orlando series MJ had 40pt, 38pt, and 39pt games. Oh, btw he lead the playoffs that year in BPM.

Well, going straight to the playoffs without much time to get in shape is what I'd describe as rolling out of a taxi.

I mean, the only thing you're really pointing out there is how great MJ was. Came back after almost 2 full seasons out and simply picked up where he left off, kicking butt individually. Yet championship teams are usually well-oiled machines, that have built up chemistry and cohesion through plenty of repetitions during the whole regular season.

Anyway, the point is if you say, "Shaq's Magic are the only team to defeat MJ's Bulls in the playoffs between the two 3-peats", this isn't comparing apples to apples, since Shaq's Magic played a less prepared Bulls in 1994-95 than others did during the 3-peats. The Bulls regrouped as a team, then swept Shaq 7-1 in 1995-96 (3-1 in the RS, and 4-0 in the playoffs).

[OdomFan]

They needed each other, However the Lakers do not get to the Finals without Kobes efforts on both ends. Plus it amazes me how the same people who are in some awe of Nash and other playmakers ignore that Kobe was the main playmaker for those early 00s Lakers who got the ball to Shaq for a lot of those touches that led to the big mans ppg averages in those Finals.

[Johnny Bball]

What do you mean, “we”… this stuff is all you.

[KGtabake]

When a guy averages 37/17 in the Finals, it will be stupid to not consider him the main reason his team won, no?
Now, if he does that 3 times in the row, what is the point of this discussion?
Ofc he didn't do it alone. Nobody does.
There's a reason Shaq is considered the most dominant player ever though.

[LesGrossman]

maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine

If it's title or nothing...that's an insane view of success. Basically makes the term meaningless when discussing players. Shaq lost back to back years to the eventual champ on the magic. Making a finals and conference finals. That IS success, it's a LOT of it.

teams hang championship banners, not lost-to-the-eventual-champion banners

So you think titles are a reasonable metric to eval a player. Interesting.

[flytimes11]

maybe your definition of success is a little different to mine

If hardware is the only determining factor, then Shaq has 3 pieces of hardware that Kobe doesn’t have from 00-02. But the topic of this thread is asking us to look a bit deeper.

By the logic of "did you or did yo not win", the NBA citizen ship award is the same as the NBA MVP or a ring. Just silly to look at player success by such narrow and extreme measures. It's the reason people HAVE to bring up Horry constantly and imply he's better than Kobe or the likes just to point out how STUPID these win or nothing views are.

Horry never even made an all star team or all nba. That argument is not a good one. With Shaq and Kobe people only focus on the finals. The teams they faced in the west were better than the East finals team who all had weak front courts. Kobe’s overall playoff numbers were good throughout the 3 peat and his 01 and 02 numbers are comparable to other players who have won finals mvp. Kobe also won one more ring than Shaq. Shaq has played with just as much talent as Kobe throughout their careers.

[Stalwart]

When a guy averages 37/17 in the Finals, it will be stupid to not consider him the main reason his team won, no?
Now, if he does that 3 times in the row, what is the point of this discussion?
Ofc he didn't do it alone. Nobody does.
There's a reason Shaq is considered the most dominant player ever though.

What about when the other guy averages 33/7/7 during the first 3 rounds?

[Pointgod]

When a guy averages 37/17 in the Finals, it will be stupid to not consider him the main reason his team won, no?
Now, if he does that 3 times in the row, what is the point of this discussion?
Ofc he didn't do it alone. Nobody does.
There's a reason Shaq is considered the most dominant player ever though.

What about when the other guy averages 33/7/7 during the first 3 rounds?

Against much better competition I might add.

[Eagle4]

The other avg
38 /17
33/16
36/13

On better efficiency so no we got it right.

[Tottery]

Eh, they needed each other. Shaq needed a great wing player and Kobe needed a 20 and 10 kind of player. I think they could have won more than 3 if they kept their cool and Shaq took conditioning more seriously.

Contrary to popular belief, championship teams typically need at least 2 great players. No one wins on their own.

[TwoStarz]

People also don't underrate ability to stay healthy. Kobe was a dog that stayed healthy and pushed Shaq to be his best self for as long as he could. There is a reason no other team has ripped off 3 straight since...its incredibly hard to do. You have to stay healthy first and foremost.

[Stan]

If you’re still arguing that Kobe was the Lakers best player during the 3peat in 2021, nothing is going to convince you otherwise at this point.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Kobe & Shaq needed each other. It's as simple as that.

As a Heat fan I witnessed Shaq's limitations firsthand. He simply could not win games as the 4th quarter closer. It took being down 0-2 for Riley to finally decide to put the ball in Wade's hands and the rest is history, but that 2006 Finals would've been otherwise a serious referendum on Shaq as a lead guy on a championship team

[Froob]

it can be simultaneously true that Shaq was the best player on the team and also that he still needed Kobe to win the titles

I hate these hot takes, one of these two gotta be a fraud.

[dhsilv2]

If hardware is the only determining factor, then Shaq has 3 pieces of hardware that Kobe doesn’t have from 00-02. But the topic of this thread is asking us to look a bit deeper.

By the logic of "did you or did yo not win", the NBA citizen ship award is the same as the NBA MVP or a ring. Just silly to look at player success by such narrow and extreme measures. It's the reason people HAVE to bring up Horry constantly and imply he's better than Kobe or the likes just to point out how STUPID these win or nothing views are.

Horry never even made an all star team or all nba.

and missing the point still...