2022 Wildcat/Sundevil basketball, other NCAA, draft discussion

[bwgood77]

Well so far AZ looks good. This is one of the first years I don't have a clue who any of their players are. DirtyDez?

They beat the also undefeated Wichita St Shockers in what was called the Roman Main Event tonight.

Originally they were not projected to make tourney, but who knows how good they really are.

GoK, I guess we very likely don't have our first rounder this year, but we do have our 2nd! And I'm sure you are likely to propose we purchase a few more...so here is the thread for you!

[bwgood77]

Holmgren or Banchero?

Spoiler:

NBA draft No. 1 pick debate: Chet Holmgren or Paolo Banchero?
play
Chet Holmgren finishes with 15 points, six rebounds and four blocks in Gonzaga's 83-63 win over UCLA. (2:15)

Nov 24, 2021
Mike Schmitz
ESPN

Las Vegas has been the center of the basketball world since Sunday, with team presidents and general managers bouncing back and forth between arenas to evaluate the next wave of NBA players. After a long week of scouting and schmoozing, the large contingent of NBA executives will be treated to the premier evaluation opportunity of the season, and one of the best true head-to-head prospect matchups in recent memory: Duke's Paolo Banchero vs. Gonzaga's Chet Holmgren.

The battle for the No. 1 pick in the 2022 NBA draft continues Friday at T-Mobile Arena at 10:30 p.m. ET on ESPN. Two of the best programs in the country, featuring the two best NBA prospects in the nation. Banchero and Holmgren are about as different big men prospects as you'll find. Banchero is the more polished of the two. Physical, powerful and skilled with an NBA-ready body and game. Holmgren is lean and lanky, with shot-blocking instincts, 3-point shooting and grab-and-go ability that are staples of the modern NBA.

So what will scouts be looking for? What is the argument for and against either Holmgren or Banchero as the No. 1 pick? Can anyone else challenge them?

What is the case for and against Holmgren as the No. 1 pick?
As we've seen with Cleveland Cavaliers rookie Evan Mobley, today's NBA is about length and skill, and no player in this draft class brings more of those two things to the table relative to his position than Holmgren. With a 7-foot-6 wingspan, a huge standing reach and some of the sharpest shot-blocking instincts you'll see from a 19-year-old, Holmgren is a future NBA Defensive Player of the Year candidate. His timing, reach and compete level have helped him block over six shots per 40 minutes through six games. He's a true defensive anchor who plays much tougher than his paper-thin frame suggests, as he put a lid on the rim and helped shutdown No. 2 UCLA 83-63 on Tuesday. While not quite as quick-footed as Mobley, Holmgren is also more than comfortable stepping out and switching on guards, using his length and high-level feel to deter smalls from either attacking him or pulling up from deep.


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On the other side of the ball, the NBA values bigs who can shoot, handle and pass, all of which Holmgren does at a relatively high level. His block turned into a length of the floor push and full extension dunk against UCLA was the perfect example of just how well-suited Holmgren is for today's positionless NBA. Shooting 5-for-13 (38.4%) from 3 so far, he has an effortless stroke, even knocking down self-created step-backs at the high school level. Scouts have marveled at his pregame routine in Las Vegas, as you simply don't see bigs his height with his footwork off the dribble. Holmgren almost always makes the right basketball play as he's a great short-roll and high-low passer and someone you could even use in 4-5 pick-and-rolls like Cleveland does with Mobley.

On top of all that, Holmgren has an edge. Sitting down with him for an ESPN Film Session, he's locked in on every possession with a serious approach. Watching him up close in Vegas, he's a fiery competitor and no stranger to playful banter. After hitting a late-game 3 against the Bruins, Holmgren waved goodbye to the crowd. Despite his slender frame, he plays unafraid, and NBA fans and teammates alike should be drawn to his competitiveness and showmanship.

Banchero Vs. Holmgren: Per 40 Minutes
P. BANCHERO C. HOLMGREN
Points 25.4 21.1
Rebounds 11.4 10.7
Assists 2.8 4.8
Blocks 0.9 5.6
Steals 2.1 1.1
2P% 62% 86%
3P% 31% 39%
So why would scouts pause in taking Holmgren No. 1 overall? His frame and durability. Standing what looks like close to 7-2, Holmgren weighs 195 pounds and it remains to be seen just how much weight his body type can carry. Although he does have a mean streak to him, teams will question whether or not he can make it through an 82-game season, especially in a more finesse-based NBA. While he's a defensive anchor in terms of rim protection and welcomes contact, can he truly defend a Joel Embiid, or a Nikola Jokic, or will he need a more physical big alongside him?

Although he's more than capable of switching and Holmgren is a smart pick-and-roll defender who is well beyond his years in drop situations, his naysayers will wonder how he'll fare against hyper-fast small-ball teams like the Miami Heat or the Toronto Raptors. That will surely be tested against a big with the perimeter skill and handle of Banchero, especially if Duke plays him some at the 5.

On the offensive end, can Holmgren punish a switch if teams opt to simply switch everything, crowd his airspace, take away his 3 and push him off spots? Can he create enough offense in the half court to function as a No. 1 option on a championship team? The one-legged Dirk fadeaway he hit against CMU and his face-up bucket against UCLA's Jaime Jaquez are both encouraging, but Holmgren will have to answer that question against more physical teams like the Blue Devils. With Kristaps Porzingis' lack of durability as a cautionary tale, those are the debates that will come up in NBA war rooms. How he answers those questions against Banchero will go a long way in determining whether he can hold onto the top spot.

What is the case for and against Banchero as the No. 1 pick?
play
1:45
Paolo Banchero leads Duke to a big win over CitadelPaolo Banchero posts 31 points, 8 rebounds and 4 assists in Duke's 107-81 win over Citadel.
Banchero is as ready an NBA prospect as you'll find. Plug him in an NBA game tomorrow and he could give you 20 points and 10 rebounds. As expected, he's been incredibly productive through his first six games with averages of 17.8 points, 8.0 rebounds, 2.0 assists and 1.5 steals in just 28 minutes a night while shooting 62% from 2 and 31% from 3. For context, only three high-major prospects have reached those per-game averages throughout a full collegiate season since 2000: Zion Williamson (Duke), Ben Simmons (LSU) and Carmelo Anthony (Syracuse). Not bad company for the potential No. 1 pick.

Most executives left Madison Square Garden on opening night enamored with the 19-year-old freshman and his polished offensive game. It's rare to see a player with his powerful, 6-10, 250-pound frame handle the ball with such grace and effortlessness. Not only is he a load with the physicality of a young Blake Griffin or Julius Randle, but he's also incredibly fluid and has the type of shot creation potential teams look for in a No. 1 option. Unlike Holmgren, he can get to a shot whenever he wants in midrange areas, using a variety of pro moves ranging from spins to inside pivots to turnarounds, and he's a nightmare cover in transition with a head of steam a la Simmons. A former quarterback, he can really pass the ball in space as well. That vision was more apparent than ever during his 28-point, 8-rebound, 6-assist game in a win over The Citadel on Monday, highlighted by an effortless, one-handed flick pass that went 50 feet in the air right into the hands of a streaking teammate for the open finish.

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He's the type of modern big you can run your offense through with regularity, while Holmgren isn't quite there yet as a true hub given some of his physical limitations. Banchero moves his feet incredibly well for his size and even has the agility to function as a big 3 in some jumbo lineups -- like we've seen from forwards like Philadelphia's Tobias Harris -- while possessing the strength to slide up to the 5 for stretches.

So why would NBA executives second-guess selecting a 250-pound wrecking ball with the handle of a guard and the mid-post polish of Jayson Tatum or Anthony? While Holmgren possesses incredible length, Banchero has an average wingspan (7-1) and reach relative to his position, and he doesn't make up for that with the elite standstill vertical explosiveness you'll see from the NBA's top leapers. Although equipped with incredible touch, will he be able to power through opponents and finish with the same level of efficiency against NBA length? We'll get our answer after he faces the draft's best shot-blocker in Holmgren.

Against Holmgren in a practice setting at the Iverson Classic in Memphis, Banchero struggled to create efficient offense, living off his midrange jumper quite a bit. The question then becomes: How many of the NBA's best bigs are true power forward types who don't really protect the rim or shoot 3s at a high level? Banchero's free throw stroke and midrange game indicate he'll be a good 3-point shooter, potentially even off the dribble someday given his footwork and handle, but he is only 5-for-16 from distance so far and it remains to be seen how his stroke will translate to the NBA line. Much like Tatum at Duke, he also has some catch-and-hold, dribble-happy tendencies that he'd benefit from addressing as he'd become far more efficient and would further unlock his passing potential. While Banchero is more physically ready and polished, does he impact the game in enough ways when he isn't scoring? Does he hold the same upside as the shot-blocking, 3-point shooting, passing Holmgren?

Who is the player that could make this a 3-man race?

Auburn's Jabari Smith has impressed in three games thus far, averaging 13 points and shooting 47% from 3. AP Photo/Butch Dill
The one player who could truly threaten either Holmgren or Banchero for the top spot is Auburn's Jabari Smith, the No. 6-ranked player in his high school class and the No. 3 prospect on our top-100. The 18-year-old has been excellent for coach Bruce Pearl through his first three collegiate games, averaging 20.5 points, 13.3 rebounds, 2.6 assists, 3.6 steals and 2.0 blocks per 40 minutes while knocking down 47% of his 3s. At 6-10, 220 pounds with solid length and some of the quickest feet you'll see from a player his size, Smith is arguably an even more modern player than Holmgren or Banchero. He's an unbelievable switch defender with an outstanding shooting stroke, even pulling up from 3 in transition and creating space with step-backs. Although not always as physical as he could be, he plays with great spirit on both ends and is a full year younger than Holmgren and six months younger than Banchero, not turning 19 until May.

The only real questions I have about Smith are his feel and passing. He plays a somewhat sped-up style and doesn't quite have the same level of top-end prep experience as Holmgren or Banchero, coming out of Sandy Creek High School in Georgia. But Smith grew up around basketball as the son and nephew of a former NBA players -- Jabari Smith Sr. and Kwame Brown -- and brings the type of defensive energy, versatility and shooting that will buy him time as the game slows down for him. With a strong showing in the Bahamas at Battle For Atlantis, don't be surprised if you start to hear Smith's name quietly mentioned as a potential No. 1 pick alongside Holmgren and Banchero.

Who is your No. 1 right now?

Chet Holmgren is blocking over 3 shots per game thus far for Gonzaga. Brian Rothmuller/Icon Sportswire
I've long considered Holmgren the best prospect in this class, and while I've been blown away by Banchero's NBA-ready game and skill level, I'm a firm believer Holmgren should be the No. 1 pick if the draft were today. Like we said about several of the top picks in last year's draft, both Banchero and Holmgren are special prospects, No. 1-caliber guys and franchise pillars. Some top-end executives see Holmgren as the clear-cut top prospect, while others favor Banchero and his ready-made game.

With that said, I'm not sure Holmgren is getting the type of credit he deserves as a truly elite prospect, largely because he doesn't have a prototypical NBA body. To signify just how unique Holmgren's all-around impact is, he's the only player in college basketball history to average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists and 5 blocks per 40 minutes.

He's far tougher than a prospect like Porzingis ever was, and you could argue that Holmgren is even more advanced as a shot-blocker and shooter than Mobley was as a freshman. Playing alongside an aggressive All-American like Drew Timme, I'm fairly certain Gonzaga's star freshman won't be as outwardly productive as Banchero in the points and rebounds department, but his impact on the game is more widespread, and it's harder to find players in his mold, especially with his no-nonsense approach to the game.

How badly has a team like the Pelicans needed a shot-blocking, floor-spacing big man to pair with Zion? Don't be surprised if Banchero bullies Holmgren some in their one-on-one possessions in T-Mobile Arena, but past evidence suggests he won't back down from the challenge, talking a bit of trash along the way. While it's early and there's still a lot to learn, I'd bet on Holmgren's length, shot-blocking, shooting, passing and all-business attitude if I were on the clock with the first overall pick.

.

[bwgood77]

I need to start watching AZ Basketball. I know none of their players but they went from unranked and not projected to make the tourney to #11 and just beat undefeated Wyoming.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401372550

[darealjuice]

I need to start watching AZ Basketball. I know none of their players but they went from unranked and not projected to make the tourney to #11 and just beat undefeated Wyoming.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401372550

They've had a lot of player development charge this season. Bennedict Mathurian looks like he'll be a lottery pick this year. Explosive athlete with a smooth shooting stroke, decent size, length, and a good frame. Still plenty of room for improvement on the ball and will have to watch him closer on defense, but he has a lot of upside.

[AtheJ415]

Wouldn't be surprised if we looked at Champagnie in the 2nd if we have a 2nd rounder.

[SunsRback4Good]

I used to follow Wildcats closely since 05 but haven't been watching much since the whole scandal few years back. They've looked dominant under the new assistant coach from Gonzago. Wildcats are currently ranked both 10 ten in offensive rating (2) & defensive rating (4) which is pretty impressive from a pool of 350 division 1 teams. Wish more of their games where televised because Pac12 network does not carry that channel. But today's game against Illinois is being broadcasted on FOX at 3pm. Few teams have already lost who were ranked higher seed than zona, so if we manage to beat Illinois the team can be ranked in top 8 by Monday. Go Wildcats!!!

[bwgood77]

I used to follow Wildcats closely since 05 but haven't been watching much since the whole scandal few years back. They've looked dominant under the new assistant coach from Gonzago. Wildcats are currently ranked both 10 ten in offensive rating (2) & defensive rating (4) which is pretty impressive from a pool of 350 division 1 teams. Wish more of their games where televised because Pac12 network does not carry that channel. But today's game against Illinois is being broadcasted on FOX at 3pm. Few teams have already lost who were ranked higher seed than zona, so if we manage to beat Illinois the team can be ranked in top 8 by Monday. Go Wildcats!!!

Awesome, I'll have to watch this one...is Illinois ranked?

That Final 8 loss in 2005 when Cats had a 15 pt lead against that overall #1 seeded Illinois team in OT was the most brutal Cats loss I remember.

Frye had 24, 12 and 6 blocks.

Illinois made a jaw-dropping final push
for the Final Four with a rally that was as electrifying as it was
improbable.

"Just amazing," Illinois coach Bruce Weber said.

Trailing by 15 with just four minutes to play Saturday night,
the Illini then showed why they have been No. 1 for most of the
season.

"We just kept fighting. We never gave up," Deron Williams said
"It looked like the game was over."

But it wasn't.

With Williams and Luther Head leading the way, Illinois went on
a dazzling 20-5 run, tying it on Williams' 3-pointer, and then held
on in overtime to send Arizona to a crushing 90-89 defeat Saturday
night in the Chicago Regional Finals.

"We've got to keep going, keep playing. I'm trying to tell my
teammates out on the floor 'This game's not over,' " Williams said.
"'There's still some time, we can still get it down, chip away.'
We ended up getting the momentum, the crowd into it and we were
able to take the game over."

The Illini (36-1), who've been able to drive to their two
tournament sites in Indianapolis and suburban Chicago, so far, can
keep on busing to the school's first Final Four appearance since
1989.

In St. Louis, they will play Louisville (33-4), which rallied
from a 20-point deficit Saturday to beat West Virginia 93-85 in
overtime and take the Albuquerque Regional.

The last time two regional final games went into overtime in the
same year was 1992 when Michigan beat Ohio State, and Duke
eliminated Kentucky.

Arizona (30-7) went up 75-60 with four minutes to go after an
18-6 spurt that momentarily silenced a large, orange-clad partisan
crowd.

The Illini stoked up their defense, incited the crowd and turned
the game around.

"It's heart man, it's just heart," Illinois' Dee Brown said.
"The whole time I was saying 'If it was meant to be, it was meant
to be.' And I guess it was meant to be that we go to the Final
Four."

Head hit a pair of 3-pointers, Brown made a basket in the lane,
Head scored after a steal, Williams drove for a basket and then
made a steal and fed Brown for another basket with 45 seconds left.

After Jack Ingram deflected an inbounds pass, Williams hit a
3-pointer to tie it with 38 seconds to go.

"Guys left and right on their team were hitting big buckets,
left and right, left and right. Whether it was a big guy or a
guard," Arizona's Mustafa Shakur said.

"It was just an unbelievable thing to lose a game that way."

Even Weber, who was drawing up the defense to spark the
comeback, couldn't keep track of all that happened.

"It was just crazy," he said. "We picked up the pace, did a
little 2-2-1 zone, denied. Jack made a steal, Dee made a steal and
I'm not sure how Deron got the last 3," Weber said.

After Williams tied it at 80 in regulation, Salim Stoudamire,
the hero of Arizona's semifinal win over Oklahoma State with a
last-second game-winner, dribbled the clock down and then passed
the ball to Jawann McClellan. He missed, but Stoudamire came up
with a loose ball, only to have his shot blocked by Head.

"The defense collapsed on me so I wasn't going to force it so I
kicked it out to Jawann," said Stoudamire, who managed just nine
points under heavy defense from Williams.

Williams hit two more 3-pointers in overtime, but Illinois'
victory wasn't secured until Arizona's Hassan Adams, who'd scored
five points to get the Wildcats within a point, missed a rushed
shot just before the final buzzer.

Adams couldn't get the ball inside to Channing Frye or drive, so
he took the shot. But it wasn't close.

"It's extremely hard. ... My disappointment is for the team,"
Arizona coach Lute Olson said. "I'm disappointed we didn't reach
one of our goals. I wish we could have closed it out."

Williams, a junior who might leave for the NBA, finished with 22
points, hitting five 3-pointers, and had 10 assists. Head, playing
with a sore hamstring, added 20.

"We just played very hard down the stretch," Brown said.
"Deron Williams, the best guard in America, came through, made a
lot of great plays. In the huddle we just said we aren't going to
lose this game."

Stoudamire had a miserable game, making just 2 of 13 shots --
1-of-7 on 3-pointers -- his chance of going to the Final Four for
the first time as a senior erased.

"It was just an off night on my part. I didn't knock the shots
down," he said.

"I didn't quit though. I tried to do other things on the floor
and it just so happens that we came up short."

Frye was a force all night and finished with 24 points, 12
rebounds and six blocked shots. His 3-pointer with 6:03 left in
regulation was the last field goal the Wildcats scored in
regulation.

Adams scored 21 on 9-of-13 shooting.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/254000061

[DirtyDez]

I will never forget where I was and what I felt after that game. And there was nowhere online I could go to vent!

[darealjuice]

Jabari Smith looks like he'll be challenging Chet and Paolo for the 1st overall pick so far. Really impressive skillset and fluidity at his size, especially at 18 years old.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Wouldn't be surprised if we looked at Champagnie in the 2nd if we have a 2nd rounder.

He'd be solid gor a wing. Kind of a better shooting James Posey?

I'm hoping we either look for power forward depth:
1- Drew Timme.
2- Dawson Garcia.
3- Tristan Vucevic.
** A dream scenario would be Damion Collins falling into the 2nd round for us! Or else value with Isiah Mobley or Matur Maker.

Or if we go with a guard option to eventually replace Paul.
1- Jeremy Roach.
2- Khristian Lander.
3- Andrew Nembhard.
** Kadary Richmond??

[Ghost of Kleine]

Christian Koloco is looking pretty solid for Arizona too. Makes a formidable frontcourt with Azuolas Tubelis.

Jonathan Givony (@DraftExpress) Tweeted:
Christian Koloko put a lid on the rim on one end, and made All-American Hunter Dickinson look like a 7'1 traffic cone operating out of handoffs and ball-screens in Arizona's blowout win over Michigan. 22 points, 7 rebounds, 4 blocks for the potential first round pick. https://t.co/g3mfRo5Wq5

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[darealjuice]

29, 24, and 30 over the last 3 games for Bennedict Mathurin. Kid can play, clearly a lottery talent. Arizona has a nice team this year.

[SunsRback4Good]

Great win by Zona!!! the game was up and down seemed like it had over several dozen game lead changes but Wildcats held on for a 4 point win. i This first time I watched the game due to most being on Pac12 network. Half of our roster are from different countries so its difficult to memorize all our players names. What's crazy is NCAA ball plays just like nba game with quick shots on a few passes. No more passing the ball around for 20 seconds before attempting a shot. Shot clock obviously changed from 35 to 30 seconds in recent years. Now with two top 10 teams lost, Zona might be 8th-9th ranked heading into Monday. Bear down!!!

[bwgood77]

29, 24, and 30 over the last 3 games for Bennedict Mathurin. Kid can play, clearly a lottery talent. Arizona has a nice team this year.

I was just checking tankathon to see where he was ranked and he isn't in their top 50. So I checked nbadraft.net which I hadn't checked in a while and they have him ranked 6th in their mock and on their big board, jumping up 7 spots since their last one.

The ESPN draftexpress guys have him at 16. They rarely update their's last year though. https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

[darealjuice]

29, 24, and 30 over the last 3 games for Bennedict Mathurin. Kid can play, clearly a lottery talent. Arizona has a nice team this year.

I was just checking tankathon to see where he was ranked and he isn't in their top 50. So I checked nbadraft.net which I hadn't checked in a while and they have him ranked 6th in their mock and on their big board, jumping up 7 spots since their last one.

The ESPN draftexpress guys have him at 16. They rarely update their's last year though. https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

Looks like he's 14 on Tankathon's mock draft and 15 on the big board.

I know he was a popular sophomore breakout pick, nice to see him take a big step forward so far. Honestly don't pay as much attention to college hoops/draft prospects these days outside of Kansas, ASU (barf), and their respective conferences to a lesser extent with the Suns being good and the draft not being an event for us anymore. Especially since we have our own unique eye for the draft lol.

[bwgood77]

29, 24, and 30 over the last 3 games for Bennedict Mathurin. Kid can play, clearly a lottery talent. Arizona has a nice team this year.

I was just checking tankathon to see where he was ranked and he isn't in their top 50. So I checked nbadraft.net which I hadn't checked in a while and they have him ranked 6th in their mock and on their big board, jumping up 7 spots since their last one.

The ESPN draftexpress guys have him at 16. They rarely update their's last year though. https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

Looks like he's 14 on Tankathon's mock draft and 15 on the big board.

I know he was a popular sophomore breakout pick, nice to see him take a big step forward so far. Honestly don't pay as much attention to college hoops/draft prospects these days outside of Kansas, ASU (barf), and their respective conferences to a lesser extent with the Suns being good and the draft not being an event for us anymore. Especially since we have our own unique eye for the draft lol.

Not sure how I missed him on BOTH tankathon lists. I guess I was expecting him a little lower at first and then when I saw him so high on nbadraft.net I looked at the espn one closely.

AZ might actually have a good All NBA team next year...

TJ McConnell
Brandon Mathurin/Josh Green
Aaron Gordon/Andre Iguodala/Stanley Johnson
Lauri Markkanen/Zeke Nnaji,Solomon Hill
Deandre Aytony win

Weak at PG and SG depending on how good Mathurin is and Gordon is really a PF. Nnaji could probably back up C, or even Lauri a bit.

I wonder how many games a team like that would win. Could they win 30?

[Jstock12]

Lots of solid players on this Wildcats roster. Also, the advanced stats models seem to love my boy Tubelis:

[bwgood77]

Lots of solid players on this Wildcats roster. Also, the advanced stats models seem to love my boy Tubelis:

Also pretty crazy that 8 of them are international players. One from Canada, one from France, one from Sweden, two from Lithuania, one from Mali, one from Estonia and one from Cameroon.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

Lots of solid players on this Wildcats roster. Also, the advanced stats models seem to love my boy Tubelis:

Also pretty crazy that 8 of them are international players. One from Canada, one from France, one from Sweden, two from Lithuania, one from Mali, one from Estonia and one from Cameroon.

Awesome but not too surprising for Kofi Cockburn honestly. As he's just so utterly dominant at his size! Baby Shaq). I've been talking about him for two seasons. I would've loved to have him when Giannis was charging into the paint like a drunk rhino. Running into Kofi he likely would've gotten flattened! He'd be great against those really big, physical centers such as Valuncias or Adams,etc. And his picks would be utterly brutal. He'd pummel/ pound/fatigue opposing centers honestly. But happy for him receiving recognition.