Jason Kidd vs. Rick Carlisle - What do you think?

[mcmurphy]

The mavericks are at a -1.3 on point differential and have a winning record they are getting extremely lucky.

Teams usually don't do well with a negative point differential, and they rarely make the playoffs. When teams like that do they are usually the 8th seed or something. The teams with the highest positive point differential usually are in the top 2 seeds 99% of the time. Good teams should have a high positive point differential, lucky teams can do well with a bad one but that luck usually turns.

good point
all these fans of Kidd they will soon notice...

MILWAUKEE
2014-15 Milwaukee (Kidd) SRS= -0.09
2015-16 Milwaukee (Kidd) SRS= -3.98
2016-17 Milwaukee (Kidd) SRS= -0.45
2017-18 Milwaukee (Kidd) SRS= -0.45
2018-19 Milwaukee (Bud) SRS= +8.04
2019-20 Milwaukee (Bud) SRS= +9.41
2020-21 Milwaukee (Bud) SRS= +5.57

DALLAS
2019-20 Dallas (Rick) SRS= +4.87 (KP: 75% of RS games)
2020-21 Dallas (Rick) SRS= +2.26 (KP: 60% of RS games)
2021-22 Dallas (Kidd) SRS= -1.31 (KP: 70% of RS games)

instead INDIANA
2020-21 Indiana(Bjorgren) SRS= -0.12
2021-22 Indiana(Rick) SRS= +1.75

give time to Rick... and to Kidd

[Chanel Bomber]

Here’s an opinion: coaches, for the most part, don’t matter in the NBA.

No

[jpengland]

This is a complicated question for a Mavs fan. To be honest I was happy to see Carlisle go but he was beloved and maybe even overrated because of 2011. After that title Dwane Casey was poached from our staff and our defense has been dreadful ever since. Kidd has been a noticeable improvement on the defensive end when it comes to coaching, but Kidd has also so far been a downgrade on the offensive end. RC also butted heads with a lot of players and I won't even go in to how he ruined DSJ's career. However, right now things are looking pretty good because Kidd was hired to be a KP whisperer, so much so after he was hired Kidd spent a lot of the offseason in Latvia clearly to build a relationship with KP. KP rather than Luka was the number one priority. It makes some sense, Luka is Luka but if this team is to go anywhere with this current roster we need KP to live up to his contract. We can't do anything about how easily he breaks but KP hasn't exactly made it a secret that he's happy Carlisle is gone. My worry about Kidd is that Milwaukee made a huge defensive jump in his first season there but after that it collapsed when other coaches figured out his scheme and he didn't adjust. If that happens again after this season that could turn into trouble pretty quickly. I'm hoping he picked up some new tricks working for Vogel and can make more adjustments than he did before

What has improved defensively?

The Mavs Drtg rank by year:

'22: 18
'21: 21
'20: 18
'19: 18
'18: 16
'17: 13

Also, Porzingis is putting up very similar numbers to the past few years.

This.

Porzingis is simply healthy. Last year he was half a step slow and that meant his defense fell through the floor. This year he's moving smoothly which is breeding his confidence.

Kidd has been pretty terrible so far. Mavs are outplaying their net rating and had a relatively easy schedule.

Carlisle would be doing much more with this.

[dirkforpres]

Carlisle would be doing much more with this.

Except that’s not true at all and it’s why Indiana is playing about as poorly as they did with Nate Bjorkgren. People like to nut hug Rick Carlisle because of what he did over a decade ago, but he’s simply not a good coach anymore. Not saying Kidd is better, but to think Carlisle would get more out of this roster is turning a blind eye to the garbage coaching display he put up in Dallas for the past 6 or 7 years.

[nikster]

The mavericks are at a -1.3 on point differential and have a winning record they are getting extremely lucky.

Teams usually don't do well with a negative point differential, and they rarely make the playoffs. When teams like that do they are usually the 8th seed or something. The teams with the highest positive point differential usually are in the top 2 seeds 99% of the time. Good teams should have a high positive point differential, lucky teams can do well with a bad one but that luck usually turns.

good point
all these fans of Kidd they will soon notice...

MILWAUKEE
2014-15 Milwaukee (Kidd) SRS= -0.09
2015-16 Milwaukee (Kidd) SRS= -3.98
2016-17 Milwaukee (Kidd) SRS= -0.45
2017-18 Milwaukee (Kidd) SRS= -0.45
2018-19 Milwaukee (Bud) SRS= +8.04
2019-20 Milwaukee (Bud) SRS= +9.41
2020-21 Milwaukee (Bud) SRS= +5.57

DALLAS
2019-20 Dallas (Rick) SRS= +4.87 (KP: 75% of RS games)
2020-21 Dallas (Rick) SRS= +2.26 (KP: 60% of RS games)
2021-22 Dallas (Kidd) SRS= -1.31 (KP: 70% of RS games)

instead INDIANA
2020-21 Indiana(Bjorgren) SRS= -0.12
2021-22 Indiana(Rick) SRS= +1.75

give time to Rick... and to Kidd

Still a small sample for SRS so far. Im sure that SRS is heavily skewed by the 2 early 30 point blow outs to Denver and ATL

[jpengland]

Carlisle would be doing much more with this.

Except that’s not true at all and it’s why Indiana is playing about as poorly as they did with Nate Bjorkgren. People like to nut hug Rick Carlisle because of what he did over a decade ago, but he’s simply not a good coach anymore. Not saying Kidd is better, but to think Carlisle would get more out of this roster is turning a blind eye to the garbage coaching display he put up in Dallas for the past 6 or 7 years.

Except he did do better, last year, with the team most crippled by Covid and a broken KP.

He's also a couple of years from putting the most efficient offense of all time on the floor.

Don't let the early record fool you, the wins won't keep up playing like this

[Mr B]

Carlisle would be doing much more with this.

Except that’s not true at all and it’s why Indiana is playing about as poorly as they did with Nate Bjorkgren. People like to nut hug Rick Carlisle because of what he did over a decade ago, but he’s simply not a good coach anymore. Not saying Kidd is better, but to think Carlisle would get more out of this roster is turning a blind eye to the garbage coaching display he put up in Dallas for the past 6 or 7 years.

Except he did do better, last year, with the team most crippled by Covid and a broken KP.

He's also a couple of years from putting the most efficient offense of all time on the floor.

Don't let the early record fool you, the wins won't keep up playing like this

Carlisle would likely still have KP camping out behind the arch and used more as a decoy so that Luka can get in the paint. That was the problem last year and there’s no reason to think Carlisle would have changed that.

The last think I worry about is the Mavs offense. That will eventually come around. Until then their record is not bad which Kidd as the HC gets credit for. He’s keeping this team afloat until the offense comes around. They’re in the 1st year of a new system with a more assertive KP. It’s going to take some time for this offense to gel.

[dirkforpres]

Carlisle would be doing much more with this.

Except that’s not true at all and it’s why Indiana is playing about as poorly as they did with Nate Bjorkgren. People like to nut hug Rick Carlisle because of what he did over a decade ago, but he’s simply not a good coach anymore. Not saying Kidd is better, but to think Carlisle would get more out of this roster is turning a blind eye to the garbage coaching display he put up in Dallas for the past 6 or 7 years.

Except he did do better, last year, with the team most crippled by Covid and a broken KP.

He's also a couple of years from putting the most efficient offense of all time on the floor.

Don't let the early record fool you, the wins won't keep up playing like this

I guess the term “better” is subjective, because I would argue that Carlisle hurt the team more than he helped them those last 5 years. Having 3 years of Porzingis and using him as a decoy or having him hoist up 40 footers every night for most of the past 2 years is pretty inexplicable to me.


Some players haven’t played as well under Kidd so far (DFS, Hardaway, WCS) but the ones that are playing better under him (Porzingis, Brunson) make it a good trade in my opinion. Once things even out as the season progresses- and hopefully with a trade or 2- I think it’ll be pretty clear it was the right ply moving off the Carlisle treadmill

[jpengland]

Except that’s not true at all and it’s why Indiana is playing about as poorly as they did with Nate Bjorkgren. People like to nut hug Rick Carlisle because of what he did over a decade ago, but he’s simply not a good coach anymore. Not saying Kidd is better, but to think Carlisle would get more out of this roster is turning a blind eye to the garbage coaching display he put up in Dallas for the past 6 or 7 years.

Except he did do better, last year, with the team most crippled by Covid and a broken KP.

He's also a couple of years from putting the most efficient offense of all time on the floor.

Don't let the early record fool you, the wins won't keep up playing like this

I guess the term “better” is subjective, because I would argue that Carlisle hurt the team more than he helped them those last 5 years. Having 3 years of Porzingis and using him as a decoy or having him hoist up 40 footers every night for most of the past 2 years is pretty inexplicable to me.


Some players haven’t played as well under Kidd so far (DFS, Hardaway, WCS) but the ones that are playing better under him (Porzingis, Brunson) make it a good trade in my opinion. Once things even out as the season progresses- and hopefully with a trade or 2- I think it’ll be pretty clear it was the right ply moving off the Carlisle treadmill

Carlisle had a healthy KP playing this well, too. He was never healthy last year.

Remember the all time great offense Carlisle put together.

The net rating shows you where the Mavs really are. We will scrape into the playoffs due to the decline in the West but Kidd isn't a good enough coach given what we have seen so far.

[jpengland]

Except that’s not true at all and it’s why Indiana is playing about as poorly as they did with Nate Bjorkgren. People like to nut hug Rick Carlisle because of what he did over a decade ago, but he’s simply not a good coach anymore. Not saying Kidd is better, but to think Carlisle would get more out of this roster is turning a blind eye to the garbage coaching display he put up in Dallas for the past 6 or 7 years.

Except he did do better, last year, with the team most crippled by Covid and a broken KP.

He's also a couple of years from putting the most efficient offense of all time on the floor.

Don't let the early record fool you, the wins won't keep up playing like this

Carlisle would likely still have KP camping out behind the arch and used more as a decoy so that Luka can get in the paint. That was the problem last year and there’s no reason to think Carlisle would have changed that.

The last think I worry about is the Mavs offense. That will eventually come around. Until then their record is not bad which Kidd as the HC gets credit for. He’s keeping this team afloat until the offense comes around. They’re in the 1st year of a new system with a more assertive KP. It’s going to take some time for this offense to gel.

Porzingis wasnt healthy last year. He wasn't explosive enough, nor had the confidence in his body to do much more and getting out of Doncic way is hardly a bad game plan when he was playing as well as the second half of last year

We saw Carlisle use KP differently when healthy. Bubble Porzingis was a beast.

[jpengland]

And for perspective, Porzingis is averaging a point more than last year, on basically the same TS.

Meanwhile the stats show Dallas as a weaker team than last year and the likes of THJ, Bullock and DFS have taken steps back offensively and Luka looks a shade below the player of the last two years.

[Mr B]

Except he did do better, last year, with the team most crippled by Covid and a broken KP.

He's also a couple of years from putting the most efficient offense of all time on the floor.

Don't let the early record fool you, the wins won't keep up playing like this

Carlisle would likely still have KP camping out behind the arch and used more as a decoy so that Luka can get in the paint. That was the problem last year and there’s no reason to think Carlisle would have changed that.

The last think I worry about is the Mavs offense. That will eventually come around. Until then their record is not bad which Kidd as the HC gets credit for. He’s keeping this team afloat until the offense comes around. They’re in the 1st year of a new system with a more assertive KP. It’s going to take some time for this offense to gel.

Porzingis wasnt healthy last year. He wasn't explosive enough, nor had the confidence in his body to do much more and getting out of Doncic way is hardly a bad game plan when he was playing as well as the second half of last year

We saw Carlisle use KP differently when healthy. Bubble Porzingis was a beast.

Bubble KP was new to the team. We have no idea if KP could have played that way last year because Carlisle never gave him a chance. That was part of the reason KP wanted out.

[Michael Jackson]

i wouldn't want either as a next door neighbor

Really when I lived next to RC he picked up my mail when I was out of town and helped me put up Xmas decorations. He seemed like a really good neighbor.

[bbalnation]

Dallas was ranked #18th in defensive rating that year they were first in history in offensive rating under Carlisle in 2019.

They played with a lot of pace and plays that would lead to an efficient offensive bucket, often at the expense of defensive lapses and mismatches.

Imo, my speculation from what I've read and heard about Rick is that he's a really rigid coach who understands his x's and o's. Sounds like a solid assistant coach if he understands thats his place (again, imo), because today's coaching requires people management and leadership, which isn't his skillset.

I think there could have been better basketball hires with less questionable pasts than Kidd for Dallas, especially given their organizational background with Mark Cuban and the organizational investigation at the time. Either way, Kidd has done a good job getting more out of KP. Its a long season: well see if he can make the next pieces fit (ie Hardaway, getting Luka to somewhat commit defensively, etc).

[hippesthippo]

Kidd by knock out - he has the experience under his belt.

yeeeeesh. Looks like you've lost your touch, braah. Not a single and-1 on a decent troll post.

[hippesthippo]

i wouldn't want either as a next door neighbor

Really when I lived next to RC he picked up my mail when I was out of town and helped me put up Xmas decorations. He seemed like a really good neighbor.

We bein fr here?

[Sofia]

Kidd by knock out - he has the experience under his belt.

yeeeeesh. Looks like you've lost your touch, braah. Not a single and-1 on a decent troll post.

Got in too late

[Michael Jackson]

i wouldn't want either as a next door neighbor

Really when I lived next to RC he picked up my mail when I was out of town and helped me put up Xmas decorations. He seemed like a really good neighbor.

We bein fr here?

No I never lived next to Carlisle.

[hippesthippo]

Really when I lived next to RC he picked up my mail when I was out of town and helped me put up Xmas decorations. He seemed like a really good neighbor.

We bein fr here?

No I never lived next to Carlisle.

[Michael Jackson]

We bein fr here?

No I never lived next to Carlisle.

If it makes you feel better, I think Carlisle would be that guy lol. I did live by a few white Sox players and a famous scout for the LA Dodgers growing up (yeah he lived in Chicagoland). All were great neighbors honestly.