Is Anthony Edwards just Wiggins with a motor & ambition ?

[vagelis]

Delusional. Wiggins had the most FG attempts on that roster with Jimmy and KAT in 17/18 season, 15.9, everybody was encouraging him to be the 1st option, Jimmy did too, but Wiggins simply wasn't good enough. He's only good on the Warriors because of Curry's impact on offense, Wiggins always has some sort of advantageous position because Curry draws so much attention to himself, so his awful handle is not needed in order for him to be put in a good position to score. If he had to utilize his handle, he'd look awful, but since you've been Wiggins' PR on realgm for years, you won't be honest enough to admit this.

The FG attempts is a part of the story.
For people who watched some games then(the Thibodeau seasons), Wiggins was standing in the corner and waited a pass at the end of the clock.
He cached and shooted the ball at the end of the clock. That was far away from his strengths especially then when he was not a good shooter. He is a better shooter now.

Wiggins went from 51.3 touches per game in 2016/17 to 41.3 tpg in 2017/18.
He had the ball 3.35 sec per touch in 2016/17.
This changed to 2.90 sec per touch in 2017/18.

So he had the ball a lot less the year that Butler arrived.

I think it is easy to understand. I said his role decreased, not his shot attempts decreased

Everybody's role decreases when another high usage player joins the team, like Butler was. Even Lebron's role decreased when he left the Cavs and joined Miami. If Wiggins, who was still the 1st option on the team, evidenced by FG attempted, can't adapt to this slight drop in touches per game and sec per touch on a winning team, is it really the situation that the team did him wrong, or that he's just not good enough? Regressing after 3-4-5 years in the league and you're the one to blame, it's not your FO's or coach's decisions to blame. How many excuses you're willing to make for Wiggins is appalling, it's like you're his girlfriend or smth.

So, you agree that his role decreased. I thought you said that this was delusional in your first post.

I didn't say if it was Wiggins fault or teams fault. I said that his role decreased and his efficiency dropped.
You answer to something that I never said in my post.

And you continue to go personal while I am talking about basketball

[FinnTheHuman]

The FG attempts is a part of the story.
For people who watched some games then(the Thibodeau seasons), Wiggins was standing in the corner and waited a pass at the end of the clock.
He cached and shooted the ball at the end of the clock. That was far away from his strengths especially then when he was not a good shooter. He is a better shooter now.

Wiggins went from 51.3 touches per game in 2016/17 to 41.3 tpg in 2017/18.
He had the ball 3.35 sec per touch in 2016/17.
This changed to 2.90 sec per touch in 2017/18.

So he had the ball a lot less the year that Butler arrived.

I think it is easy to understand. I said his role decreased, not his shot attempts decreased

Everybody's role decreases when another high usage player joins the team, like Butler was. Even Lebron's role decreased when he left the Cavs and joined Miami. If Wiggins, who was still the 1st option on the team, evidenced by FG attempted, can't adapt to this slight drop in touches per game and sec per touch on a winning team, is it really the situation that the team did him wrong, or that he's just not good enough? Regressing after 3-4-5 years in the league and you're the one to blame, it's not your FO's or coach's decisions to blame. How many excuses you're willing to make for Wiggins is appalling, it's like you're his girlfriend or smth.

So, you agree that his role decreased. I thought you said that this was delusional in your first post.

I didn't say if it was Wiggins fault or teams fault. I said that his role decreased and his efficiency dropped.
You answer in something that I never said in my post.

And you continue to go personal while I am talking about basketball

I was not arguing that, I was arguing whether the reduction in his role has anything to do with his drop in efficiency, and whether things should work like that. When you get a great wing offensive threat/playmaker in Jimmy Butler on your team, your efficiency should rise, not drop, because you get more good looks, and less bad looks. But that didn't work for Andrew, because all he knew was his crappy iso mid-range game that was still getting him mediocre efficiency and that was losing us games, he couldn't catch and shoot, couldn't make quick decisions with the ball once he gets it, just couldn't play winning basketball.

You are saying that Wiggins' efficiency improves when he's allowed to have a bigger role like he did on that Minny team pre-Butler, but that doesn't matter because his efficiency was bad in that period too, just slightly less bad than when Butler arrived. So only trash teams would let him have the usage with which he'd achieve his mediocre efficiency, making your point obsolete.

And no, you shouldn't compare the reasons for Wiggins' fluctuations in efficiency now, to his fluctuations in efficiency in his Wolves days, because the reasons are not the same. Lately on the Warriors he's just getting a lot of easy looks which he knows how to convert, and which he didn't know how to convert when Butler arrived in Minnesota. On top of that, the looks he's getting now are even easier than the looks he was getting with Butler.

[vagelis]

Everybody's role decreases when another high usage player joins the team, like Butler was. Even Lebron's role decreased when he left the Cavs and joined Miami. If Wiggins, who was still the 1st option on the team, evidenced by FG attempted, can't adapt to this slight drop in touches per game and sec per touch on a winning team, is it really the situation that the team did him wrong, or that he's just not good enough? Regressing after 3-4-5 years in the league and you're the one to blame, it's not your FO's or coach's decisions to blame. How many excuses you're willing to make for Wiggins is appalling, it's like you're his girlfriend or smth.

So, you agree that his role decreased. I thought you said that this was delusional in your first post.

I didn't say if it was Wiggins fault or teams fault. I said that his role decreased and his efficiency dropped.
You answer in something that I never said in my post.

And you continue to go personal while I am talking about basketball

I was not arguing that, I was arguing whether the reduction in his role has anything to do with his drop in efficiency, and whether things should work like that. When you get a great wing offensive threat/playmaker in Jimmy Butler on your team, your efficiency should rise, not drop, because you get more good looks, and less bad looks. But that didn't work for Andrew, because all he knew was his crappy iso mid-range game that was still getting him mediocre efficiency and that was losing us games, he couldn't catch and shoot, couldn't make quick decisions with the ball once he gets it, just couldn't play winning basketball.

You are saying that Wiggins' efficiency improves when he's allowed to have a bigger role like he did on that Minny team pre-Butler, but that doesn't matter because his efficiency was bad in that period too, just slightly less bad than when Butler arrived. So only trash teams would let him have the usage with which he'd achieve his mediocre efficiency, making your point obsolete.

And no, you shouldn't compare the reasons for Wiggins' fluctuations in efficiency now, to his fluctuations in efficiency in his Wolves days, because the reasons are not the same, lately on the Warriors he's just getting a lot of easy looks which he knows how to convert, and which he didn't know how to convert when Butler arrived in Minnesota. On top of that, the looks he's getting now are even easier than the looks he was getting with Butler.

I don't compare the situation with the Warriors vs the situation with Timberwolves.

I compare the efficiency of Wiggins with Warriors when he has a decreased role vs when he has bigger role.
I compare the efficiency of Wiggins with Timberwolves when he had a decreased role vs when he had bigger role.

I found similarities in those 2 different comparisons.
So, again you answer to something different from what I was saying

[FinnTheHuman]

So, you agree that his role decreased. I thought you said that this was delusional in your first post.

I didn't say if it was Wiggins fault or teams fault. I said that his role decreased and his efficiency dropped.
You answer in something that I never said in my post.

And you continue to go personal while I am talking about basketball

I was not arguing that, I was arguing whether the reduction in his role has anything to do with his drop in efficiency, and whether things should work like that. When you get a great wing offensive threat/playmaker in Jimmy Butler on your team, your efficiency should rise, not drop, because you get more good looks, and less bad looks. But that didn't work for Andrew, because all he knew was his crappy iso mid-range game that was still getting him mediocre efficiency and that was losing us games, he couldn't catch and shoot, couldn't make quick decisions with the ball once he gets it, just couldn't play winning basketball.

You are saying that Wiggins' efficiency improves when he's allowed to have a bigger role like he did on that Minny team pre-Butler, but that doesn't matter because his efficiency was bad in that period too, just slightly less bad than when Butler arrived. So only trash teams would let him have the usage with which he'd achieve his mediocre efficiency, making your point obsolete.

And no, you shouldn't compare the reasons for Wiggins' fluctuations in efficiency now, to his fluctuations in efficiency in his Wolves days, because the reasons are not the same, lately on the Warriors he's just getting a lot of easy looks which he knows how to convert, and which he didn't know how to convert when Butler arrived in Minnesota. On top of that, the looks he's getting now are even easier than the looks he was getting with Butler.

I don't compare the situation with the Warriors vs the situation with Timberwolves.

I compare the efficiency of Wiggins with Warriors when he has a decreased role vs when he has bigger role.
I compare the efficiency of Wiggins with Timberwolves when he had a decreased role vs when he had bigger role.

I found similarities in those 2 different comparisons.
So, again you answer something different from what I was saying

Now you're arguing in bad faith. Why would say that his efficiency rose both for the Wolves and the Warriors when his role increased, if you didn't want to say that it's because he's more engaged when he gets more touches and gets into rhythm?

[vagelis]

Now you're arguing in bad faith. Why would say that his efficiency rose both for the Wolves and the Warriors when his role increased, if you didn't want to say that it's because he's more engaged when he gets more touches and gets into rhythm?

I have already said it that he gets more self confidence when he gets more touches and he gets into rhytm as you said.
And as you said he gets more engaged when he thinks he is more important.
This is my opinion as long as I have watched him

[FinnTheHuman]

Now you're arguing in bad faith. Why would say that his efficiency rose both for the Wolves and the Warriors when his role increased, if you didn't want to say that it's because he's more engaged when he gets more touches and gets into rhythm?

I have already said it that he gets more self confidence when he gets more touches and he gets into rhytm as you said.
And as you said he gets more engaged when he thinks he is more important.
This is my opinion as long as I have watched him

So you 1st claimed that you didn't say something, and now you say you did.

And as I said, the reason for Wiggins' fluctuation in efficiency this year is different from the reason for the fluctuation back then pre- and after Thibs. He's attempting less shots this season (14.4) and having a lower touch rate and lower touches per possession than for the Wolves in the season with Thibs and Butler arrival.

It's just that he improved his jumper and he is getting good looks now, it's not that he's now in a larger role than he ever was on the Wolves, or because his role increased as opposed to the beginning of the season.

He's just embraced that he's a role player and worked on the tools to improve himself as a role player, he's not trying to be a star because he doesn't have the ability to be a star in this league, because he's got no handle, he's got no fluidity, no creativity, while Edwards does, which puts Edwards into an entirely different stratosphere as a player.

[vagelis]

Now you're arguing in bad faith. Why would say that his efficiency rose both for the Wolves and the Warriors when his role increased, if you didn't want to say that it's because he's more engaged when he gets more touches and gets into rhythm?

I have already said it that he gets more self confidence when he gets more touches and he gets into rhytm as you said.
And as you said he gets more engaged when he thinks he is more important.
This is my opinion as long as I have watched him

So you 1st claimed that you didn't say something, and now you say you did.

And as I said, the reason for Wiggins' fluctuation in efficiency this year is different from the reason for the fluctuation back then pre- and after Thibs. He's attempting less shots this season (14.4) and having a lower touch rate and lower touches per possession than for the Wolves in the season with Thibs and Butler arrival.

It's just that he improved his jumper and he is getting good looks now, it's not that he's now in a larger role than he ever was on the Wolves, or because his role increased as opposed to the beginning of the season.

He's just embraced that he's a role player and worked on the tools to improve himself as a role player, he's not trying to be a star because he doesn't have the ability to be a star in this league, because he's got no handle, he's got no fluidity, no creativity, while Edwards does, which puts Edwards into an entirely different stratosphere as a player.

Sory, we cannot find a way to communicate. I will not continue this discussion. I have already wrote my opinion in this thread, so maybe it is boring to continue again with the same things

[a8bil]

My high school had a charity basketball game a couple decades back where 3 NFL players from the 49ers came and played...Ricky Watters, Merton Hanks and Eric Davis. All of them pro bowl level players, and great athletes. Davis was the most skilled and the one who most relied on his skills..he put up a stead number of points, assists and rebounds. Technically sound in all part of his game. Hanks was the guy who looked like he was working the least. But wiry and long and just so much more athletic than his opponents that even though he looked passive, he made some highlight reel plays and put up numbers similar to Davis. Watters? A freaking whirling dervish. The guy had probably 3 360 dunks during the game. Forcing the action and daring anyone to block him. An explosive bull. Dictated the pace of the game. Wiggins is Hanks. Ant is Watters.

[KG_And1]

Yes. Ant is just Wiggins with a better motor, handle, confidence, and ambition. Plus, they both don’t even like basketball.

This is just like Lebron is Joey Graham with better handles, IQ, court awareness, ambition, and athletic ability.

They are just alike.

[HotelVitale]

See I think it's the reverse. I think Jordan was more powerful and he was more fundamentally sound so that might play into saying he was fluid. I mean think about it, if you can even perform a Eurostep these days that's a more fluid move than anything from 20yrs ago. Not to say that's Jordan's fault but today's players have mimicked him thier whole lives and then have more in the arsenal especially with loose carrying rules of today so don't think I'm blaming Jordan for that. He did what he knew he was allowed to do.

What Jordan was better at for sure is that stop and rise. You give him a pick (and this is before Jordan became amazing in the post) and he'd come around that pick then get toward the foul line, stop and rise up above the outstretched arms of the bigmen and hit a midrange. And he really got up there, I don't remember what his vertical was but still to this day it's historically one of the best.

Sorry, man, I don’t at all recognize the description that young MJ wasn’t very slithery and that what sat him apart was catch-and-shoot pull-ups off picks. No part of that seems at all accurate (though he was very good at shooting over guys and hanging in the air). Young MJ was so absurdly agile, it was like he was playing with a different musculature that let him twitch and juke on a totally different level than other people. I’m not saying he was ‘smooth,’ which is sort of a subjective descriptor—I’m saying specifically that he had a physical agility and shake to him that was extremely obvious and let the rest of his game go.

Edwards just looks like a great straight line athlete, both powerful and fast. Nothing about him reminds me of that special MJ agility.

What? That's the last thing I think. The guy can weave with the best of them. Maybe I'm misreading.

Not meant as an insult to Edwards, who's a great athlete by any measure. Just take a look back at young MJ--most of his drives are juke-juke, shake-shake, up-and-under-and-around you stuff, pretty jerky but in a strangely fluid way. Constantly slinking between and around people.

You don't see that type of thing with Edwards. He scores way more on 3s of course, but his drives are generally him using an open lane to drive straight to the cup, or making one move on the perimeter and driving powerfully straight to the rack. A lot of that's the difference in how the game is played (and how people shape their bodies--everyone's skinny in the mid-80s) but it's also just a special MJ thing. He played that way on like every play in his early career, and it's what allowed him to create for himself and others all day.

[FNQ]

Wiggins has been great this year and was solid last year. The biggest difference for him is that he's not being asked to create his own shots. He's just finishing plays cutting and shooting, and then on the other end, playing defense. With that, he's a little above typical league average efficiency the last couple years. I don't think that projects well for averaging 25 ppg on a non-playoff team. He's got not offensive imagination, a very lackluster handle and a streaky jumper. Nothing wrong that. Being a 20 ppg player with good defense on a great team is awesome.

All that said, he will absolutely get a really good contract on his next go-round. His contract has been roughly worth it in GSW. Two-way wing that gets 20 ppg is useful on absolutely any team.

Not being asked is polite.. some of us fans are begging for him not to. He gets the great majority of his points due to the system, and maybe a bucket or two per game entirely on his own. Problem is he still does that kinda frequently

But yes I think you're spot on. He's a role player that has assimilated well into our offense, which isn't an easy thing. But some are talking about him as if he's a young player with some upside that we unlocked, and that's just not it.

His numbers will go down when Klay returns and his minutes are scaled back too

[Pelly24]

Wiggins has been great this year and was solid last year. The biggest difference for him is that he's not being asked to create his own shots. He's just finishing plays cutting and shooting, and then on the other end, playing defense. With that, he's a little above typical league average efficiency the last couple years. I don't think that projects well for averaging 25 ppg on a non-playoff team. He's got not offensive imagination, a very lackluster handle and a streaky jumper. Nothing wrong that. Being a 20 ppg player with good defense on a great team is awesome.

All that said, he will absolutely get a really good contract on his next go-round. His contract has been roughly worth it in GSW. Two-way wing that gets 20 ppg is useful on absolutely any team.

Not being asked is polite.. some of us fans are begging for him not to. He gets the great majority of his points due to the system, and maybe a bucket or two per game entirely on his own. Problem is he still does that kinda frequently

But yes I think you're spot on. He's a role player that has assimilated well into our offense, which isn't an easy thing. But some are talking about him as if he's a young player with some upside that we unlocked, and that's just not it.

His numbers will go down when Klay returns and his minutes are scaled back too

Yeah exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that. I would say that he's easily worth $20 million a year if he can be in this role on other teams. I love that he's got a shot at making an all-star team and being on a championship squad. For a No. 1 pick who underachieved so much on a miserable organization, that's a win. He can rewrite his career a good amount at GSW.

[dc]

Wiggins has assimilated better into the system, but he's still very much the same guy he's always been in that you can't rely on him to be consistent or for him to show up in big moments. He just ain't that guy. The only thing you can do is to try and coax as many "good" or "very good" games out of him over the course of the year. The Warriors have done a good job of that this year.

And the Warriors have said as much. Draymond/Steph have said they'll use any number motivational tactics they can on him. They know his tendencies to be an absolute non-factor.

He's done better this year but in no way is he close to an all-star.

[a8bil]

Read on Twitter

If Ant only has Wiggin's spring, that's enough.

[elchengue20]

Very lazy comparison.

You are comparing them only because they are very athletic #1 picks who played/play in Minnesota. Beyond that, they are not similar players.

Wiggins is a 6'8 forward who plays like a poormans Khawi. Motor is clearly his biggest issue, a more consistent Wiggins would be a superstar.

Edwards is a 6'4 guard. Playstyle hes like a better shooter, worse defender DWade. Or a bigger Baron Davis.

The biggest difference is Edwards is a guard. He has way better handles than Wiggins. Also he has a good motor, so it looks like he can reach his potential.

[Pelly24]

The timing of this thread just isn't the best lol. I respect the obersvations of any kind, but Wiggins reaching his peak and being the third best player on a 17-2 team is amazing, and his ability to fit into this Warriors system is great. Kinda hope he can get a chip.

[righterwriter]

He would easily average 25 ppg as a #1 option on most non-playoff teams. If he had a perfect handle he could average 30ppg. Not sure why him not being perfect in every aspect makes him a limited offensive player in the eyes of some people.

The irony of Wiggins and him having "one of the worst contracts in the league" (as many fans have said here) is that he will almost definitely get somewhere between $25-30M/yr on his next contract.

A 6'7 wing who scores 20+ppg, plays lockdown D, shoots efficiently, and is an integral part of one of the best teams in the league, especially when they are only 28 years old like Wiggins, will be in high demand.

Wiggins has been great this year and was solid last year. The biggest difference for him is that he's not being asked to create his own shots. He's just finishing plays cutting and shooting, and then on the other end, playing defense. With that, he's a little above typical league average efficiency the last couple years. I don't think that projects well for averaging 25 ppg on a non-playoff team. He's got not offensive imagination, a very lackluster handle and a streaky jumper. Nothing wrong that. Being a 20 ppg player with good defense on a great team is awesome.

All that said, he will absolutely get a really good contract on his next go-round. His contract has been roughly worth it in GSW. Two-way wing that gets 20 ppg is useful on absolutely any team.

Good post. I think we agree on a lot of the same points.

Just to clarify, I think ideally he wouldn't be a guy that is asked to score 25ppg. My comment was more that for a non-playoff team that needed scorers (say DET, NO, ORL, HOU, maybe SA) Wiggins could average that if asked to.

He put up 23.6ppg a five years ago on a bad MIN team, sharing shots with KAT and Zach Lavine. I think he could get there again.

That being said, he is in the perfect role right now. Play off the ball, wait for an opening to exploit, attack the rim from the weak side, run the floor, hit open jumpers, occasionally be asked to create his own shot, then put a lot of focus on defense.

He's an incredible luxury and a really big part of the Warriors success. When Klay comes back, and chemistry is formed, he'll be even more lethal to opponents.

[vagelis]

Read on Twitter

If Ant only has Wiggin's spring, that's enough.

The most impressive about this jump is that it is without running and it was a second jump after his missed shot.
I think that if he showcases his real vertical he maybe can reach the rim with his shoulder.
He just does not showcase how athletic he is

Watch on YouTube

[Flash Falcon X]

better version of prime jason richardson (05-06,) with better handles.