I don't know what a foul is anymore

[Quentin]

Doesn't matter what game I'm watching. You watch so much contact when a guy goes to the hoop, getting knocked off his path, with no call at all. But then you get ticky-tack non basketball touch fouls called on the perimeter or when they drive and shoot. Replays show the refs are calling some and not others. This is getting out of hand, there has to be a better solution to refs controlling the game so much.

[Joshyjess]

Well, at least we still have some clear cut violations - like lane violations on FT's, moving picks, 10 second defensive violations....

[orlando_joe]

yea anyone see play were wcj gets thrown out of game after clear hit to face no call from allen in cavs game ref looking right at it

[Texas Chuck]

Doesn't matter what game I'm watching. You watch so much contact when a guy goes to the hoop, getting knocked off his path, with no call at all. But then you get ticky-tack non basketball touch fouls called on the perimeter or when they drive and shoot. Replays show the refs are calling some and not others. This is getting out of hand, there has to be a better solution to refs controlling the game so much.

I like the human element of the refs. Just as certain players play differently, miss more shots than they make etc... I don't need the refs to be able to get every call exactly right the way I can with the benefit of 4 angles at extremely slow speed.

I mean they are dealing with some of the best athletes in the world moving quickly and they honestly miss very few calls. We don't give these guys nearly enough credit for how good they are at their job.

I've tried reffing some kids games and adult rec league games and its a lot harder than I expected it to be. I guess I just have more tolerance for the human element. I assume we aren't far away from the technology to ref using AI and getting everything "correct", but I hope they don't because I don't believe that makes the game better.

[orlando_joe]

Well, at least we still have some clear cut violations - like lane violations on FT's, moving picks, 10 second defensive violations....

they called magic for talking during free throw other night...first i seen that...lol

[Quentin]

Doesn't matter what game I'm watching. You watch so much contact when a guy goes to the hoop, getting knocked off his path, with no call at all. But then you get ticky-tack non basketball touch fouls called on the perimeter or when they drive and shoot. Replays show the refs are calling some and not others. This is getting out of hand, there has to be a better solution to refs controlling the game so much.

I like the human element of the refs. Just as certain players play differently, miss more shots than they make etc... I don't need the refs to be able to get every call exactly right the way I can with the benefit of 4 angles at extremely slow speed.

I mean they are dealing with some of the best athletes in the world moving quickly and they honestly miss very few calls. We don't give these guys nearly enough credit for how good they are at their job.

I've tried reffing some kids games and adult rec league games and its a lot harder than I expected it to be. I guess I just have more tolerance for the human element. I assume we aren't far away from the technology to ref using AI and getting everything "correct", but I hope they don't because I don't believe that makes the game better.

You are dead wrong.

[Texas Chuck]

You are dead wrong.

Am I? How do you know? Is someone tracking this data and sharing it publicly? I know Dallas, and thus probably most if not all teams, are, but I'm not aware of a public source other than the 2 minute report.

Would love the data if you have a link you are willing to share.

If its just your opinion, I get it and I'm not here to convince you otherwise. You probably just have higher standards, standards I likely would find unreasonable. Again, we get the benefit of replays and angles they don't in real time. I think a lot of people forget to take that into consideration when killing the refs for missing something they likely didn't see clearly at full speed either. I know I see lots of plays that I think are or aren't fouls live but when they replay it I can see my initial thoughts were wrong.

You could be much better than me at real speed of course.

[bisme37]

Yeah I like all the rule changes but there's still the annoying issue of different refs call games and teams differently from night to night. I feel like my C's have gotten a bad whistle recently, especially in that Nets game. (Even Doris on ESPN pointed it out.) It was like last years rules applied to one team but this year's rules applied to the other. (I'm not mad and complaining as much as I'm just reporting what I'm seeing. C's were losing that game either way.)

And the Wolves-Sixers game last night was maybe the worst example I've seen this year. I was glad the Wolves got the win because they were absolutely hosed by the refs all night. Foul calls, out of bounds calls, it was legit weird.

Anyway, I know refs are going to make mistakes and use their own judgment, so I guess it's always going to be like this and it's just part of the game.

[shangrila]

Yeah I like all the rule changes but there's still the annoying issue of different refs call games and teams differently from night to night. I feel like my C's have gotten a bad whistle recently, especially in that Nets game. (Even Doris on ESPN pointed it out.) It was like last years rules applied to one team but this year's rules applied to the other. (I'm not mad and complaining as much as I'm just reporting what I'm seeing. C's were losing that game either way.)

And the Wolves-Sixers game last night was maybe the worst example I've seen this year. I was glad the Wolves got the win because they were absolutely hosed by the refs all night. Foul calls, out of bounds calls, it was weird.

Anyway, I know human refs are going to make mistakes and use their own judgment, so I guess it's always going to be like this and it's just part of the game.

Glad us Wolves fans weren't the only ones that noticed that.

Different rules for different teams is the real issue.

[Tor_Raps]

Yeah I like all the rule changes but there's still the annoying issue of different refs call games and teams differently from night to night. I feel like my C's have gotten a bad whistle recently, especially in that Nets game. (Even Doris on ESPN pointed it out.) It was like last years rules applied to one team but this year's rules applied to the other. (I'm not mad and complaining as much as I'm just reporting what I'm seeing. C's were losing that game either way.)

And the Wolves-Sixers game last night was maybe the worst example I've seen this year. I was glad the Wolves got the win because they were absolutely hosed by the refs all night. Foul calls, out of bounds calls, it was weird.

Anyway, I know human refs are going to make mistakes and use their own judgment, so I guess it's always going to be like this and it's just part of the game.

Glad us Wolves fans weren't the only ones that noticed that.

Different rules for different teams is the real issue.

Ya I was cheering for embiid but it was so obvious the Wolves were getting screwed on so many calls. Felt bad for them if they lost that one.

[Quentin]

Yeah I like all the rule changes but there's still the annoying issue of different refs call games and teams differently from night to night. I feel like my C's have gotten a bad whistle recently, especially in that Nets game. (Even Doris on ESPN pointed it out.) It was like last years rules applied to one team but this year's rules applied to the other. (I'm not mad and complaining as much as I'm just reporting what I'm seeing. C's were losing that game either way.)

And the Wolves-Sixers game last night was maybe the worst example I've seen this year. I was glad the Wolves got the win because they were absolutely hosed by the refs all night. Foul calls, out of bounds calls, it was weird.

Anyway, I know human refs are going to make mistakes and use their own judgment, so I guess it's always going to be like this and it's just part of the game.

Glad us Wolves fans weren't the only ones that noticed that.

Different rules for different teams is the real issue.

Ya I was cheering for embiid but it was so obvious the Wolves were getting screwed on so many calls. Felt bad for them if they lost that one.

Embiid was a snow plow and if you got in the way, you were whistled up. Ridiculous.

[Mikistan]

You are dead wrong.

Am I? How do you know? Is someone tracking this data and sharing it publicly? I know Dallas, and thus probably most if not all teams, are, but I'm not aware of a public source other than the 2 minute report.

Would love the data if you have a link you are willing to share.

If its just your opinion, I get it and I'm not here to convince you otherwise. You probably just have higher standards, standards I likely would find unreasonable. Again, we get the benefit of replays and angles they don't in real time. I think a lot of people forget to take that into consideration when killing the refs for missing something they likely didn't see clearly at full speed either. I know I see lots of plays that I think are or aren't fouls live but when they replay it I can see my initial thoughts were wrong.

You could be much better than me at real speed of course.

I've reffed a bit before and sure people yelling st you can be intimidating but I can't agree with anything else you said.

The sport needs to be called evenly to keep the spirit of competition/sport intact. The moment things are inconsistent or favour a superstar or a team it's no longer a fair contest and basically becomes a giant waste of time

[aemannarwal]

And that's why you got to flop.....

[KnicksGadfly]

I didn’t know what a foul was last year when Trae Young was putting on an Oscar performance so…

[Statlanta]

Some refs are too influenced by home crowds, their personal egos, reputations of players, definitions of the rule book.

We're all human. We can only perfect the system by promoting the good and more experienced refs to the playoffs.

[ken6199]

The more you accept refs are human the more you will enjoy the games - especially during this difficult time when all the refs are adjusting to those rule changes. It's easier for us to go through slo-mo replays from multiple angles and say "damn how could you miss that", but for the refs who are dealing with actions real-time, I think lot of the time they just go with their experience (aka gut feelings). Things like shot block vs goal tending, charge vs block, it's really hard for the humans eyes to dictate right, he clearly slid his feet after the offensive player went off the ground. You sometimes make the best decisions on experience by watching similar actions thousands of times.

That said, for us fans the more difficult time is still yet to come. It's when things start to matter in late April or in a do or die elimination game, a couple of missed calls start to impact a team's whole season, a player's legacy (e.g. lmao this guy is a choker he didn't reach the finals again).

Another thing to this is, I am okay with refs making mistakes, but I don't like the refs getting emotional and starting to make it a show all about themselves. Just like those notorious games by Scott Foster, it's pretty clear that this guy has a temper going on as well, and start to let it affect his game.

[Doctor MJ]

Doesn't matter what game I'm watching. You watch so much contact when a guy goes to the hoop, getting knocked off his path, with no call at all. But then you get ticky-tack non basketball touch fouls called on the perimeter or when they drive and shoot. Replays show the refs are calling some and not others. This is getting out of hand, there has to be a better solution to refs controlling the game so much.

So here's how I'd suggest trying to understand things:

Real refereeing shifts are not really about changes to rules, but changes to what they are told to pay attention to. "Points of emphasis". There is a long history of this approach leading to great short term success curtailing the behavior that the NBA decides they want curtailed, and I'd point to several iterations of cracking down on hand checks beginning in the '70s.

Whenever they go through this though, what the refs are trying to do is not make calls from an entirely different rulebook, but they are trying to look out specifically for the things they are told to look out for, and that leads to them missing other stuff.

In the league right now, one thing that means is that if an offensive player responds to context with something that looks like an established form of flopping, he may not get the call even if he was fouled.

If that makes you think "But that's not right either!", you're not wrong, but I'll tell you, I applaud the NBA whenever they do this effectively against something that had become a problem. It's not possible for human referees to get all the calls right, so to me the priority needs to be incentivizing the players not to try to draw fouls. I want to see basketball players make basketball moves, and we're getting more of that now than we were last year.

Last note, what about that "other stuff"? The stuff that isn't a point of emphasis always becomes a candidate for player tactics to exploit, and if it becomes successful enough, it will eventually be covered by a new point of emphasis that cracks down on the new cheat code.

All this to say, it's okay to feel confused and frustrated right now when trying to determine "what should the call be", as fans naturally want...but big picture, this is what progress tends to look like in a sport where the action is too fast and too subtle for human referees to catch everything.

[FreeThrowLine]

I’d like to see an adjustment to the “challenge” rules

1. If your challenge is successful then you don’t lose it

2. There’s a 1 minute timer for a decision to be made. If they can’t decide within that minute then it’s a jump ball

3. The challenge is reviewed by a video ref, not the refs on the court. Their decision is sent down to the court after the review, we don’t need 3 guys standing around on the court, staring at the screen having a long discussion

4. The data from how many successful challenges against calls from certain refs during certain teams games could be useful in the long run

[Texas Chuck]

I've reffed a bit before and sure people yelling st you can be intimidating but I can't agree with anything else you said.

The sport needs to be called evenly to keep the spirit of competition/sport intact. The moment things are inconsistent or favour a superstar or a team it's no longer a fair contest and basically becomes a giant waste of time

I think inconsistency is just a fact of using humans.

I agree that I wish superstar calls didn't happen, but I understand some of why I think they do--reputations, its a star driven league and the refs understand that.

And I'd have to see some real evidence that suggests a certain team gets favored or disfavored. I don't believe that actually happens, but again understand why many think their team gets the short end. Our brain is wired to not notice when our team seemingly benefits from bad calls, we often wouldn't even register it. But man miss one call against our team and we remember it forever.

And the league, thanks to Cuban and the millions in fines he paid fighting for it, has improved officiating a great deal or at least the process of it. They have more review of refs, its done by independent parties, they've had the G League which serves only as development for players but for officials as well.

We just have to be realistic in our expectations.

[bisme37]

I don't know if there's any data to suggest that the calls have been any worse or less consistent than usual. But the more I think about it it would make sense if there's less consistency right now.

The refs have to make split second judgment calls and they've been doing it under one set of rules and guidelines for years. Now those rules have changed and they've only had a few months to adjust. So it would make sense if refs occasionally blow their whistle as a knee-jerk response to what would have been a foul in the past but isn't supposed to be now.

Hopefully they'll get better and more consistent as they have more time to get used to their new mandate.