Knicks - Hawks PG: This is what effort looks like

[moocow007]

he just got taken out of the rotation by thibs. crazy.

Was he? It was the 2nd game of a back-to-back and Walker sits out those. Question to me is whether it's the Knicks decision or Walkers decision.

thibs announced it today. there's a thread.

Gotcha. Wow. Now the question is, was the benching because Walker was sleepwalking through games that he was even suited up to play in? It's one thing to be out of the starting rotation cause you're ineffective, another to be out of the rotation completely. Something else going on here besides just him not being effective. Thibs wouldn't yank vets like Walker completely out of the rotation like that.

[god shammgod]

Was he? It was the 2nd game of a back-to-back and Walker sits out those. Question to me is whether it's the Knicks decision or Walkers decision.

thibs announced it today. there's a thread.

Gotcha. Wow. Now the question is, was the benching because Walker was sleepwalking through games that he was even suited up to play in? It's one thing to be out of the starting rotation cause you're ineffective, another to be out of the rotation completely. Something else going on here besides just him not being effective. Thibs wouldn't yank vets like Walker completely out of the rotation like that.

yeah. i think leon might be the guy who pulled the plug on this. having a losing season, and we were heading there with him, is probably worse for his job security than pissing off kemba and his agent. i guess they'll look to move him. good luck with that.

[KnixtapeH20]

Capella destroyed us in the playoffs.

Not even a question. Very easy to see who was missing.

[dakomish23]

Nah.. Knox, Frank, Trier, Dotson, DSJ etc. all got plenty of minutes to see that they sucked. The only guy that was actually good was KP and he played until he got hurt.

Nah. 17-18 we did not. 18-19 we did & we got rewarded for it with the cornerstone of our future championship. 19-20 we did not.

When we do it right, things work out for us. When we don’t, it won’t

2018 we could have drafted SGA.
2020 we drafted Obi who they wanted all along and is starting to show potential

The kids n vets minutes have nothing to do with the draft working out or not, its who we decide to pick.

You have more to choose from. Why is that bad thing? Of course it matters when we have bums who do nothing but take away minutes from kids.

[Gravy]

Nah. 17-18 we did not. 18-19 we did & we got rewarded for it with the cornerstone of our future championship. 19-20 we did not.

When we do it right, things work out for us. When we don’t, it won’t

2018 we could have drafted SGA.
2020 we drafted Obi who they wanted all along and is starting to show potential

The kids n vets minutes have nothing to do with the draft working out or not, its who we decide to pick.

You have more to choose from. Why is that bad thing? Of course it matters when we have bums who do nothing but take away minutes from kids.

The kids were bums too and they still got 20 minutes of playing time!

There's like a hundred kids to choose from in the draft just get it right. I mean we picked Knox over Bridges when they were in the same gym. They saw Donovan Mitchell in person and this mfer Phil Jackson chooses Frank instead. What makes you think we would do any better with the #1 pick. They would have picked Bagley lol

[Capn'O]

Dropping these little nuggets in here:

Randle on/Kemba on : 872 possessions = - 13.5 net rating
Randle on/Kemba off: 527 possessions = +8.7 net rating
Randle off/ Kemba on: only 17 possessions(!!!!) = -1.8 net rating
Randle + Fournier + RJ on/ Kemba off: 205 possessions - +23.0 Net Rating

Not surprising. Kemba hasn't really jelled yet. Not sure if he still can. We shall see. Edit - oh, I see he was benched. Well damn.

[HarthorneWingo]

Dropping these little nuggets in here:

Randle on/Kemba on : 872 possessions = - 13.5 net rating
Randle on/Kemba off: 527 possessions = +8.7 net rating
Randle off/ Kemba on: only 17 possessions(!!!!) = -1.8 net rating
Randle + Fournier + RJ on/ Kemba off: 205 possessions - +23.0 Net Rating

Not surprising. Kemba hasn't really jelled yet. Not sure if he still can. We shall see. Edit - oh, I see he was benched. Well damn.

Macri and Cohen went over these stats in their podcast after the Hawks win.

But I don’t think it’s that Kemba hasn’t jelled yet, I just think he’s washed up.He doesn’t defend like we need him to. Kenna’s had some good offensive games. He’s lead the team in scoring in four games.

[Capn'O]

Dropping these little nuggets in here:

Randle on/Kemba on : 872 possessions = - 13.5 net rating
Randle on/Kemba off: 527 possessions = +8.7 net rating
Randle off/ Kemba on: only 17 possessions(!!!!) = -1.8 net rating
Randle + Fournier + RJ on/ Kemba off: 205 possessions - +23.0 Net Rating

Not surprising. Kemba hasn't really jelled yet. Not sure if he still can. We shall see. Edit - oh, I see he was benched. Well damn.

Macri and Cohen went over these stats in their podcast after the Hawks win.

But I don’t think it’s that Kemba hasn’t jelled yet, I just think he’s washed up.He doesn’t defend like we need him to. Kenna’s had some good offensive games. He’s lead the team in scoring in four games.

The defense was awful but he's really struggling to get other guys involved and I think part of that is he just can't get to his spots like he wants to.

[Knicksfan1992]

Not surprising. Kemba hasn't really jelled yet. Not sure if he still can. We shall see. Edit - oh, I see he was benched. Well damn.

Macri and Cohen went over these stats in their podcast after the Hawks win.

But I don’t think it’s that Kemba hasn’t jelled yet, I just think he’s washed up.He doesn’t defend like we need him to. Kenna’s had some good offensive games. He’s lead the team in scoring in four games.

The defense was awful but he's really struggling to get other guys involved and I think part of that is he just can't get to his spots like he wants to.

Combination of physical decline, fear of finishing at the rim (the defense knowing this), and not being a natural passer have all led to the issues of stagnation within the offense IMO. The jumper looks good, but he's never really been a dynamic off-ball shooter so it doesn't do our team much good if Kemba's only real threat is dribbling into jumpers...

[dakomish23]

2018 we could have drafted SGA.
2020 we drafted Obi who they wanted all along and is starting to show potential

The kids n vets minutes have nothing to do with the draft working out or not, its who we decide to pick.

You have more to choose from. Why is that bad thing? Of course it matters when we have bums who do nothing but take away minutes from kids.

The kids were bums too and they still got 20 minutes of playing time!

There's like a hundred kids to choose from in the draft just get it right. I mean we picked Knox over Bridges when they were in the same gym. They saw Donovan Mitchell in person and this mfer Phil Jackson chooses Frank instead. What makes you think we would do any better with the #1 pick. They would have picked Bagley lol

I have no excuse for their draft records. And personally I was all in on Luka 2018 & Ball 2020.

I just don’t like wasting time when we’re bad by playing vets who have no future here. From that 19-20 team, there’s two guys still here who weren’t on a rookie contract.

I thought they learned from 17-18

[moocow007]

Not surprising. Kemba hasn't really jelled yet. Not sure if he still can. We shall see. Edit - oh, I see he was benched. Well damn.

Macri and Cohen went over these stats in their podcast after the Hawks win.

But I don’t think it’s that Kemba hasn’t jelled yet, I just think he’s washed up.He doesn’t defend like we need him to. Kenna’s had some good offensive games. He’s lead the team in scoring in four games.

The defense was awful but he's really struggling to get other guys involved and I think part of that is he just can't get to his spots like he wants to.

Because physically he's not able to or mentally not willing to? Probably a bit of both?

[moocow007]

Macri and Cohen went over these stats in their podcast after the Hawks win.

But I don’t think it’s that Kemba hasn’t jelled yet, I just think he’s washed up.He doesn’t defend like we need him to. Kenna’s had some good offensive games. He’s lead the team in scoring in four games.

The defense was awful but he's really struggling to get other guys involved and I think part of that is he just can't get to his spots like he wants to.

Combination of physical decline, fear of finishing at the rim (the defense knowing this), and not being a natural passer have all led to the issues of stagnation within the offense IMO. The jumper looks good, but he's never really been a dynamic off-ball shooter so it doesn't do our team much good if Kemba's only real threat is dribbling into jumpers...

Yeah. Walker's forte isn't what he's likely relegated to now having to settle for possibly due to some combination of physical decline and mentally not into it (or whatever is going on). So he's basically setup to fail...especially in the court of public opinion and the eyes of the fans (and everyone else that isn't blind).

[FutureKnicksGM]

So it's not last year? I gave you numbers from this year, do you have anything to say about those? The less Randle has the ball this year has worked out for us, when he's been on the court this year we have been an inefficient offensive team that barely plays defense. Do you have anything to refute the numbers from this year?

You don't win basketball games or championships by individual ratings. Clearly there is minimal context applied.

You think Randle makes us a worse team. Translate whatever rating/count you want that into the most simple (and important stat) - wins.

Without Randle holding us back, how many more wins do we get in comparison to a team with Juilius. This year. It really is a simple question.

We're not winning a championship with Randle, and you do win basketball games by going after highly efficient players. Your argument is basically throw out all the stats because you don't like them, instead lets go with a question that can't be answered.

No it's a really simple question that can easily be answered. Another poster gave it ago. You simply are avoiding it.

No one is throwing out stats. But using stats which are highly dependent on the 9 other players on the court, to assess one player without context, seems ridiculous to me. Doesn't take into account if the player is going against the oppositions best during his minutes, or if he is playing with one of the worst defenders in the league for most of his minutes. Does the defensive rating for bench in the second quarter against ATL reflect the quality of shots they gave up ( they got mad open looks for 3, but luckily washed Gallo clanked away)? No.

But don't worry, I won't ask again given how difficult a question it is.

[HarthorneWingo]

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[BKlutch]

Best win of the season so far and honestly, some of you should not be allowed to even enjoy it.

To come back on the second night of a back to back on the road after the Suns blowout loss and win a game undermanned against a red hot team on a 7 game win streak and the team that eliminated you in the playoffs says a lot about the character and heart of this team.

You cannot play better defense that how we did in the fourth quarter. Everyone was in sync! Great gameplan by Thibs and great execution by the entire team. IQ was amazing! Best game of his career imo in terms of his defense and playmaking. Burks was a monster in the 3rd quarter of doom. Timely shots by Fournier, especially at the beginning of the third when the Hawks started 7-0 and took a lead. Sims gave us some great minutes. Great job by the front office to find someone like him at the end of the second. Obi's energy and athleticism was such a boost too. That alley-oop was just insane! Good to see RJ snap out of his slump and start to make shots. Weird game by Randle. He had some key plays including that drive at the end of the third and good defense when switched on Trae Young and made some nice passes off double teams to find guys but offensively, something is off with him. Hope he's OK but he seems like he's distracted. Don't wanna speculate but he's not playing with the same joy and energy of last season.

Anyway, great win last night. Very proud of this team!

Funniest post I ever saw. True, too

[thebuzzardman]

You have more to choose from. Why is that bad thing? Of course it matters when we have bums who do nothing but take away minutes from kids.

The kids were bums too and they still got 20 minutes of playing time!

There's like a hundred kids to choose from in the draft just get it right. I mean we picked Knox over Bridges when they were in the same gym. They saw Donovan Mitchell in person and this mfer Phil Jackson chooses Frank instead. What makes you think we would do any better with the #1 pick. They would have picked Bagley lol

I have no excuse for their draft records. And personally I was all in on Luka 2018 & Ball 2020.

I just don’t like wasting time when we’re bad by playing vets who have no future here. From that 19-20 team, there’s two guys still here who weren’t on a rookie contract.

I thought they learned from 17-18

I think the current regime is better though. You might not like the minutes; Obi could get more, IQ could get some more THIS year, but Knicks clearly committed to being competitive to attract FA's and accomplished that. Within that context the Knicks found time for IQ last year and SOME Obi, even though it was limited. With no SL and limited camp due to Covid, Obi looked seriously raw last year until the end of the year, so maybe he got the minutes he deserved.
This year, Obi's minutes are up a little, though yeah, they need to go up more. IQ gets some more time. Grimes and Sims see some daylight, but not much, but they still do. Again, especially with the benching of Kemba, would I start IQ? Sure. But I'm willing to see Burks start if IQ's minutes go up and Grimes too.

I think we tend to confuse minutes with development. And your vet argument isn't wrong, especially several years ago. I think this FO might be a little different. It's funny, we have to say which FO regime, since Knicks turn them over every two or three years.

[dakomish23]

The kids were bums too and they still got 20 minutes of playing time!

There's like a hundred kids to choose from in the draft just get it right. I mean we picked Knox over Bridges when they were in the same gym. They saw Donovan Mitchell in person and this mfer Phil Jackson chooses Frank instead. What makes you think we would do any better with the #1 pick. They would have picked Bagley lol

I have no excuse for their draft records. And personally I was all in on Luka 2018 & Ball 2020.

I just don’t like wasting time when we’re bad by playing vets who have no future here. From that 19-20 team, there’s two guys still here who weren’t on a rookie contract.

I thought they learned from 17-18

I think the current regime is better though. You might not like the minutes; Obi could get more, IQ could get some more THIS year, but Knicks clearly committed to being competitive to attract FA's and accomplished that. Within that context the Knicks found time for IQ last year and SOME Obi, even though it was limited. With no SL and limited camp due to Covid, Obi looked seriously raw last year until the end of the year, so maybe he got the minutes he deserved.
This year, Obi's minutes are up a little, though yeah, they need to go up more. IQ gets some more time. Grimes and Sims see some daylight, but not much, but they still do. Again, especially with the benching of Kemba, would I start IQ? Sure. But I'm willing to see Burks start if IQ's minutes go up and Grimes too.

I think we tend to confuse minutes with development. And your vet argument isn't wrong, especially several years ago. I think this FO might be a little different. It's funny, we have to say which FO regime, since Knicks turn them over every two or three years.

I have no problems with the current minutes b/c the kids are a steady part of the rotation.

Just discussing the prior years approach.

[thebuzzardman]

I have no excuse for their draft records. And personally I was all in on Luka 2018 & Ball 2020.

I just don’t like wasting time when we’re bad by playing vets who have no future here. From that 19-20 team, there’s two guys still here who weren’t on a rookie contract.

I thought they learned from 17-18

I think the current regime is better though. You might not like the minutes; Obi could get more, IQ could get some more THIS year, but Knicks clearly committed to being competitive to attract FA's and accomplished that. Within that context the Knicks found time for IQ last year and SOME Obi, even though it was limited. With no SL and limited camp due to Covid, Obi looked seriously raw last year until the end of the year, so maybe he got the minutes he deserved.
This year, Obi's minutes are up a little, though yeah, they need to go up more. IQ gets some more time. Grimes and Sims see some daylight, but not much, but they still do. Again, especially with the benching of Kemba, would I start IQ? Sure. But I'm willing to see Burks start if IQ's minutes go up and Grimes too.

I think we tend to confuse minutes with development. And your vet argument isn't wrong, especially several years ago. I think this FO might be a little different. It's funny, we have to say which FO regime, since Knicks turn them over every two or three years.

I have no problems with the current minutes b/c the kids are a steady part of the rotation.

Just discussing the prior years approach.

Got it. Then "I concur"

[Gravy]

I think the current regime is better though. You might not like the minutes; Obi could get more, IQ could get some more THIS year, but Knicks clearly committed to being competitive to attract FA's and accomplished that. Within that context the Knicks found time for IQ last year and SOME Obi, even though it was limited. With no SL and limited camp due to Covid, Obi looked seriously raw last year until the end of the year, so maybe he got the minutes he deserved.
This year, Obi's minutes are up a little, though yeah, they need to go up more. IQ gets some more time. Grimes and Sims see some daylight, but not much, but they still do. Again, especially with the benching of Kemba, would I start IQ? Sure. But I'm willing to see Burks start if IQ's minutes go up and Grimes too.

I think we tend to confuse minutes with development. And your vet argument isn't wrong, especially several years ago. I think this FO might be a little different. It's funny, we have to say which FO regime, since Knicks turn them over every two or three years.

I have no problems with the current minutes b/c the kids are a steady part of the rotation.

Just discussing the prior years approach.

Got it. Then "I concur"

These kids are getting the same amount of minutes or less in some cases as last regimes kids.
RJ 32mpg
Mitch 25
IQ 19
Obi 15
Grimes 7

Compared with:
KP 32mpg
Knox 28
Dotson 28
DSJ 28
Mitch 23
Trier 22
Frank 21

The difference is people were pissed off Frank wasnt starting and getting 37 minutes a night so everyone complained that all the kids were buried on the bench when that was not the case.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

You don't win basketball games or championships by individual ratings. Clearly there is minimal context applied.

You think Randle makes us a worse team. Translate whatever rating/count you want that into the most simple (and important stat) - wins.

Without Randle holding us back, how many more wins do we get in comparison to a team with Juilius. This year. It really is a simple question.

We're not winning a championship with Randle, and you do win basketball games by going after highly efficient players. Your argument is basically throw out all the stats because you don't like them, instead lets go with a question that can't be answered.

No it's a really simple question that can easily be answered. Another poster gave it ago. You simply are avoiding it.

No one is throwing out stats. But using stats which are highly dependent on the 9 other players on the court, to assess one player without context, seems ridiculous to me. Doesn't take into account if the player is going against the oppositions best during his minutes, or if he is playing with one of the worst defenders in the league for most of his minutes. Does the defensive rating for bench in the second quarter against ATL reflect the quality of shots they gave up ( they got mad open looks for 3, but luckily washed Gallo clanked away)? No.

But don't worry, I won't ask again given how difficult a question it is.

It's a childish question, and not answerable because of the variables. Are we trading Randle for picks, or are we bringing back another player who makes a similar salary, are we trading him for a PG or 3 & D wing? Please, enlighten me. Only in fantasy world is something like this actually something people can answer, and I don't do that.

The stats are pretty clear on him this season, which is why you brought up last season. You don't like them, which is why you posed the question, that's all there is to it.