Game 20: Pistons (4-15) @ Lakers (10-11) - Nov. 28 9:30 PM EST

[zeebneeb]

I find it very odd that some people expected the Pistons to somehow be worse then last year.

If that's the case, being surprised by Beys regression, or Stewart remaining the same is also odd, as you expected to be bad, or in some cases worse.

It also seems you would have expected that Cade would be a low impact rookie as well.

Paradoxical thinking?

If the Pistons end up with another top 3 pick this year, will you expect them to bad again next season? What will be different then? New coach? Offseason impact moves?

[mattao313]

I find it very odd that some people expected the Pistons to somehow be worse then last year.

If that's the case, being surprised by Beys regression, or Stewart remaining the same is also odd, as you expected to be bad, or in some cases worse.

It also seems you would have expected that Cade would be a low impact rookie as well.

Paradoxical thinking?

If the Pistons end up with another top 3 pick this year, will you expect them to bad again next season? What will be different then? New coach? Offseason impact moves?

They weren't good last year.

I don't think Cade was going to be amazing this year either cause most rookies suck. I also don't rate our guys as highly as others.

Grant is our best player but realistically he's probably 3rd or 4th best player on a good team like he was in Denver.

I see Beys potential as a good starting role player and right now he regressed a bit but most role players in a larger role don't do to well.

Stewart is a backup he doesn't really have great skill or is a good athlete, add that he's also under sized idk what people think his potential was.

we didn't sign any real difference makers either. The only way we would have been better is if one of the young guys just totally broke out andi feel like that was a long shot.

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[7r5ur]

I find it very odd that some people expected the Pistons to somehow be worse then last year.

If that's the case, being surprised by Beys regression, or Stewart remaining the same is also odd, as you expected to be bad, or in some cases worse.

It also seems you would have expected that Cade would be a low impact rookie as well.

Paradoxical thinking?

If the Pistons end up with another top 3 pick this year, will you expect them to bad again next season? What will be different then? New coach? Offseason impact moves?

Generally, teams with 4-out-of-5 members of their starting lineup as rookies or 2nd year guys are quite terrible. That's just how it is. It takes time to learn how to win.

I didn't expect everyone to suddenly be way worse shooters, but there's a lot of that going on around the league for whatever reason.

[Billl]

I find it very odd that some people expected the Pistons to somehow be worse then last year.

If that's the case, being surprised by Beys regression, or Stewart remaining the same is also odd, as you expected to be bad, or in some cases worse.

It also seems you would have expected that Cade would be a low impact rookie as well.

Paradoxical thinking?

If the Pistons end up with another top 3 pick this year, will you expect them to bad again next season? What will be different then? New coach? Offseason impact moves?

We played quite a few vets for most of the season. Everyone was bitching about it even after we dropped Rose and Blake. Delon Wright , wayne ellington and Plumlee aren't world beaters, but you tend to win more games with vets than rookies. I was hoping the young guys would all make strides, but we would still lose a ton of games.

[DBC10]

I'm most disappointed in Bey and then Stewart. It doesn't seem like Stewart has improved at all from last year and Bey looks to have regressed. My theory with Bey is he worked on other aspects of his game over the offseason but deprioritized shooting drills. He certainly looks much more comfortable doing other things on the floor, its just nothing is dropping AT ALL. He needs to really figure out (along with the coaching staff) what type of player he wants to be in this league.

Bey releases the ball way out in front of his body, which limits him to being a catch and release shooter. The reason is physics. When you try to pull up for a jumper after dribbling left, for example, to maximize efficiency (quickness and power) on your shot you need to be releasing the ball from a point in line with your body's own center of gravity. So the ball basically needs to be on (or close to) an imaginary line extending vertically from your forehead. Any other point of release requires extra time and reduces power, both of which need to be compensated for to maintain adequate power and accuracy. In his release, Bey's outstretched arms are basically working against the natural power available to him from his body's center of gravity. So I think he compensates for this loss of power by flicking harder with his wrist, as it were, which in turn causes him to loose his accuracy.

I know this because I developed a similar shooting motion during my later playing years to compensate for a very weak right triceps resulting from nerve damage. All I could do was catch and shoot, that or go all the way to the rim in a drive. Using a similar release to that of Bey, I basically shot with wrist and shoulder. It's unlikely that Bey shoots like this for my reasons, i.e. extremely weakened triceps muscles. But I think my analysis is correct and that he'll never be a pull up off the dribble shooter unless he overhauls his shooting motion. If he goes back to being primarily a spot up shooter, he'll recover his natural accuracy and be fine.

Question: why don't any of the coaches see this?

btw, first post on this site though I've lurked here for more years than I care to mention.

Hey, another shooting nerd that probably tweaked his/her own shot one too many times down the rabbit hole. I was the same way and immediately noticed Bey's semi awkward shooting form in which his arm is overextended from his body/shooting shoulder. I'm more of the proponent of the shooting shoulder being aligned with the basket instead of the myth about your left & right shoulder being square/point to the rim, which most elite shooters don't even do anymore. My own advice to young shooters has been to emulate elite shooters and find your own comfortable physicality

Thing is, a harder flick of the wrist can work as seen by guys like Carmelo Anthony or Kawhi Leonard, but completely opposite to how Bey shoots, both players are much more vertical in their shooting arm when going up for the shot instead of being outstretched the body like Bey is

Coaches likely don't see or don't work on it since they'll see that his existing shooting form is allowing him to shoot north of 85% in practice which falls back to the "don't fix what's not broken" mentality

His form isn't bad, but I think it'll take him longer to be comfortably in the "elite" category

[Rip32]

Andrew Wiggins now in his 7th and 8th seasons the past two years has finally become a pretty efficient scorer and solid defender in this league. He was much better than Cade has been as a rookie in his first year, but overall spent most of the first 6 years of his career as an inefficient 20 PPG scorer that was poor defensively and a low assist high usage player that got about 5 rebounds per game.

Wiggins now only after 7/8 years is an above average starting SF in the league. He's probably top 9 or 10.

Yeah but Wiggins wasn't doing sh?t in Minny until he was acquired by GS. His breakout has been with GS.

[Rip32]

There is no reason to compare Cade, Hayes, Wiggins, Curry, Zeke or anyone.

Every player is different and adjusts in their own time (or doesn't)

To make a real judgement on any player so early is ridiculous.

But as has been stated around here often by many patience is a virtue some don't appear to have.

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We tried patience with Stanley Johnson; what happened? Some players are worth being patient for others not so much. With any player you should see some glimpses of greatness although they're young.

[Rip32]

Cade is having difficulty creating his own shot. Because of his low trajectory, a lot of his shots will get blocked imo

[Manocad]

There is no reason to compare Cade, Hayes, Wiggins, Curry, Zeke or anyone.

Every player is different and adjusts in their own time (or doesn't)

To make a real judgement on any player so early is ridiculous.

But as has been stated around here often by many patience is a virtue some don't appear to have.

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

We tried patience with Stanley Johnson; what happened? Some players are worth being patient for others not so much. With any player you should see some glimpses of greatness although they're young.

Stanley played for the Pistons for three years. I'm glad you agree that the definition of patience isn't 30 games.

[Manocad]

Cade is having difficulty creating his own shot. Because of his low trajectory, a lot of his shots will get blocked imo

When you're shooting in AD's face anyone gets blocked.

[Manocad]

Andrew Wiggins now in his 7th and 8th seasons the past two years has finally become a pretty efficient scorer and solid defender in this league. He was much better than Cade has been as a rookie in his first year, but overall spent most of the first 6 years of his career as an inefficient 20 PPG scorer that was poor defensively and a low assist high usage player that got about 5 rebounds per game.

Wiggins now only after 7/8 years is an above average starting SF in the league. He's probably top 9 or 10.

Yeah but Wiggins wasn't doing sh?t in Minny until he was acquired by GS. His breakout has been with GS.

You just argued against your own argument.

[kierkegaard]

I'm most disappointed in Bey and then Stewart. It doesn't seem like Stewart has improved at all from last year and Bey looks to have regressed. My theory with Bey is he worked on other aspects of his game over the offseason but deprioritized shooting drills. He certainly looks much more comfortable doing other things on the floor, its just nothing is dropping AT ALL. He needs to really figure out (along with the coaching staff) what type of player he wants to be in this league.

Bey releases the ball way out in front of his body, which limits him to being a catch and release shooter. The reason is physics. When you try to pull up for a jumper after dribbling left, for example, to maximize efficiency (quickness and power) on your shot you need to be releasing the ball from a point in line with your body's own center of gravity. So the ball basically needs to be on (or close to) an imaginary line extending vertically from your forehead. Any other point of release requires extra time and reduces power, both of which need to be compensated for to maintain adequate power and accuracy. In his release, Bey's outstretched arms are basically working against the natural power available to him from his body's center of gravity. So I think he compensates for this loss of power by flicking harder with his wrist, as it were, which in turn causes him to loose his accuracy.

I know this because I developed a similar shooting motion during my later playing years to compensate for a very weak right triceps resulting from nerve damage. All I could do was catch and shoot, that or go all the way to the rim in a drive. Using a similar release to that of Bey, I basically shot with wrist and shoulder. It's unlikely that Bey shoots like this for my reasons, i.e. extremely weakened triceps muscles. But I think my analysis is correct and that he'll never be a pull up off the dribble shooter unless he overhauls his shooting motion. If he goes back to being primarily a spot up shooter, he'll recover his natural accuracy and be fine.

Question: why don't any of the coaches see this?

btw, first post on this site though I've lurked here for more years than I care to mention.

Hey, another shooting nerd that probably tweaked his/her own shot one too many times down the rabbit hole. I was the same way and immediately noticed Bey's semi awkward shooting form in which his arm is overextended from his body/shooting shoulder. I'm more of the proponent of the shooting shoulder being aligned with the basket instead of the myth about your left & right shoulder being square/point to the rim, which most elite shooters don't even do anymore. My own advice to young shooters has been to emulate elite shooters and find your own comfortable physicality

Thing is, a harder flick of the wrist can work as seen by guys like Carmelo Anthony or Kawhi Leonard, but completely opposite to how Bey shoots, both players are much more vertical in their shooting arm when going up for the shot instead of being outstretched the body like Bey is

Coaches likely don't see or don't work on it since they'll see that his existing shooting form is allowing him to shoot north of 85% in practice which falls back to the "don't fix what's not broken" mentality

His form isn't bad, but I think it'll take him longer to be comfortably in the "elite" category

You got that right re rabbit hole! I was so hard on myself as my very humble skills waned. So thankful to be done with that!

The only thing I'd add to my analysis is that the arm motion it takes for Bey to get the ball to his release point in front of his body is working against his natural body motion that is gathering and rising up (jumping) for the jump shot. For example, the ball has to go from wherever he grabs it with 2 hands to some point 1 foot (let's say) in front of his forehead rather than from his grabbing point (ideally his chest) to straight above his forehead. I think this inefficient motion more than the wrist flick thing is what impacts his accuracy. His ball placement motion is working against his natural jumping motion, making it harder to get square with the basket after pulling up from a dribble left or right. On a catch and shoot he's already square, so it's no issue.

[7r5ur]

Cade is having difficulty creating his own shot. Because of his low trajectory, a lot of his shots will get blocked imo

The problem is not him being unable to get his shot off. It's that he's missing a ton of wide open shots.

Anthony Davis has 1400+ blocks in his career including the playoffs, so Cade joins a long list with a ton of great players there.

[bstein14]

Cade is having difficulty creating his own shot. Because of his low trajectory, a lot of his shots will get blocked imo

The problem is not him being unable to get his shot off. It's that he's missing a ton of wide open shots.

Anthony Davis has 1400+ blocks in his career including the playoffs, so Cade joins a long list with a ton of great players there.

For sure Cade is missing tons of wide open shots. He probably gets more shots with 6+ feet of space than anyone else in the NBA. Most players seem to be between 12% and 20% of their shots are wide open (no defender within 6 feet) and Cade is at 31.6% of his shots being wide open. 30.2% of his overall shots are wide open 3 pointers. Opposing teams are pretty much daring him to shoot the ball.

50.5% of Cade's FGAs have been 3 point shots where he has had 4+ ft of space between him and the defender and he's hitting those at 1.7 makes out of 7.2 attempts per game which is just 23.6% .... of course he's just 24.5% overall on his 3 point shots but getting the shot off isn't problem besides a few plays against AD.