Blowing it up? Not yet.

[winforlose]

I’d add that MIN’s recent success probably makes it less likely we’d add a big name player and jeopardize our emerging chemistry.

I see us needing a big who defends, rebounds, and needs to be guarded .. but doesn’t care if he scores ten points a game or not. To me, that is a back up player, who truly wouldn’t cost many resources or be hard to integrate with our current players.

Grabbing one extra backup on the cheap does not help with the bigger issue. We have Prince in the rotation not contributing and Beasley inconsistent at best. We need to make up for their combined lack of expected offensive production. Otherwise, we put all the pressure on the big 3. One injury or series of bad games and we have no offense. We need another offensive load bearer. Preferably someone who can draw a big out of the lane and out to the perimeter.

Personally, I think I have more faith in Beasley than most, since he averaged 20 PPG for us, each of the last two seasons, and Beverley will get us some points. I don’t mind having room for Vanderbilt and McDaniels to be able to grow into more FGA’s. Even if we lose one scorer to injury, we fortunately have two others, so adding another “offensive load bearer” is not a big concern of mine. In fact, I would prefer a low usage guy on offense, as long as opponents can’t leave him completely unguarded.

The question I have now, setting aside value, is who should we be willing to part with as matching salary. Layman seems like a no-brainer for $4. Are we sure we want to toss off Okogie? I was impressed how much energy he gives the team, even after some DNP’s. And Prince hasn’t done well, but Dane says he is the most respected player in the locker room, and the guy Ant listens too most. That said, neither appear to be in our longterm plans. I don’t know who we deal, but as close as we are to the lux, it feels like the Price is Right Showcase Showdown: pick the salaries of our players to trade, and then select the best new big at a bid without going over.

I was just thinking about this. In order of dump up to keep them

1. Layman
2. JMAC
3. Nowell
4. JO

This is of course just salary matching. Prince and Beasley are the main trade assets because of their large contracts.

I just don’t think Ant is reliable enough for your plan to work. This season is make or break for keeping KAT and maybe Dlo as well. I know some of you hate Dlo, but I see genuine value and want to keep him (though maybe getting a small pay cut worked into his next contract.) Without KAT we may be able to win some clutch periods, but we lose the Miami game (just like we did in the first half,) as well as get blown out by the Pacers (Ant didn’t show up until the second half and we won by 2 on a 32 point night for KAT.) I could go on, but the bottom line is we need a legit big who can cover if KAT goes out. They won’t be as good at scoring but they need to be able to keep our season alive until he gets back. We saw what happens last year and there is no reason think we could survive it this year.

[shrink]

I think it’s cool that we have three completely different views from three different fans, all three rationally defended, and that we can disagree politely and rationally.

[fattymcgee]

For those wanting to blow it up, we are basically tied for the 4th seed right now. We are 0 games behind the 4th seed but .002 percentage points behind them.

BUT, we are only 1 game ahead of the 10th seed so who knows where we'll end up. Though I don't see a scenario (other than Towns missing a big chunk of the year) where we fall below the 10th seed.

[KGdaBom]

Getting Ben Simmons is like finding a pile of money and deciding rather than spending or investing it you will set it on fire because you want to watch it burn.

In our case the team is better than people thought and if we make use of our extra talent and make the right move we get better. Instead bring in the literal worst fit in the entire league and over pay for him just to ensure we never make the playoffs again before the owners move the team

Simmons kills Ant, costs us not only our opportunity at better players like Turner, Wood, Siakam, but also any FAs who might want to come here when we are competitive. He costs us our young core and our picks. Might as well cover that money in horse dung to make sure the scene smells as bad as it looks.

I like your general optimism about our team, but you couldn't be possibly more wrong about Simmons. He is the best fit and likely won't cost us very much.

What's your realistic offer?

I don't really have one. I leave that to Gupta.

[shangrila]

I’d add that MIN’s recent success probably makes it less likely we’d add a big name player and jeopardize our emerging chemistry.

I see us needing a big who defends, rebounds, and needs to be guarded .. but doesn’t care if he scores ten points a game or not. To me, that is a back up player, who truly wouldn’t cost many resources or be hard to integrate with our current players.

If by "needs to be guarded" you mean "shoots the 3" then I highly doubt they'll come cheap.

Even backups that hit that holy trinity are valuable. Larry Nance just cost a 1st, for example.

Larry Nance is a really good defender, and very professional. He’s also overkill.

I don’t think in today’s NBA, the ability to hit an open three pointer is such a rare skill for a big man, particularly because MIN doesn’t need quantity, or even a league average shooter. For example, Gorgui Dieng isn’t considered a great three point shooter, but he can make open ones in the corner, and provide defense and rebounding. He only got a $4 mil expiring contract, and I’d be happy to get him for Layman and a 2nd if Okongwu is back yet, and pushes Gorgui to ATL’s fourth string center. He also has experience playing next to Towns, so he could have an edge to speed up helping right away.

Dieng's a good example, although he's having a horrific start so far. I think that's the rub though; technically this season, he doesn't fit your archetype.

Any player that can actually, even at just an average level, play defence, rebound and shoot the 3 at, let's say, 34%+ is incredibly valuable to teams. So not only is the base price high but given the lack of supply if one does hit the market the bidding will push that price up higher. I mean, Dieng might only be available due to the combination of his circumstances. I don't think it's realistic to expect a guy like you're describing to come cheap.

[Klomp]

A team I'd look at is Dallas. They play smaller, yet have a surplus of bigs. I'm not sure Dieng fits the athletic profile needed of our centers, it's more than just being able to hit a 3-pointer. Guys like Cauley-Stein and Brown should be attainable and better athletic fits than Gorgui.

[Slim Tubby]

I’d add that MIN’s recent success probably makes it less likely we’d add a big name player and jeopardize our emerging chemistry.

I see us needing a big who defends, rebounds, and needs to be guarded .. but doesn’t care if he scores ten points a game or not. To me, that is a back up player, who truly wouldn’t cost many resources or be hard to integrate with our current players.

Shrink you are very likely correct about what we will do, but that way of looking at it is like the Mike Zimmer coaching philosophy. Get a small lead and turtle up hoping to hold on. IMO now is the perfect time for us to go for it. Just two different philosophies. Neither is necessarily right or wrong.

This is a great post and exactly how I feel about Simmons. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and hope it doesn’t come up snake-eyes.


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[BlacJacMac]

I like your general optimism about our team, but you couldn't be possibly more wrong about Simmons. He is the best fit and likely won't cost us very much.

What's your realistic offer?

I don't really have one. I leave that to Gupta.

So you know he won't cost much, but have no idea what it would cost?

Got it.

[winforlose]

I’d add that MIN’s recent success probably makes it less likely we’d add a big name player and jeopardize our emerging chemistry.

I see us needing a big who defends, rebounds, and needs to be guarded .. but doesn’t care if he scores ten points a game or not. To me, that is a back up player, who truly wouldn’t cost many resources or be hard to integrate with our current players.

Shrink you are very likely correct about what we will do, but that way of looking at it is like the Mike Zimmer coaching philosophy. Get a small lead and turtle up hoping to hold on. IMO now is the perfect time for us to go for it. Just two different philosophies. Neither is necessarily right or wrong.

This is a great post and exactly how I feel about Simmons. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and hope it doesn’t come up snake-eyes.


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I hear you, and I agree we need to make a move, but Simmons is not only a bad move, he is going all in on a 2 and 7 off suit. He is a bad fit which costs a fortune and with very significant risks. I listed everything above, but I will emphasize he cannot play with V8 he will significantly hamper Ant, his production would need to be significantly higher than V8’s to even consider trading for him and his contract is enormous. If he wants out before that we are worse off and even if he doesn’t we will likely be begging other teams to take him long before the 5 years is up. Oh and he is out of shape having not played or practiced seriously since the playoffs last year.

[KGdaBom]

What's your realistic offer?

I don't really have one. I leave that to Gupta.

So you know he won't cost much, but have no idea what it would cost?

Got it.

That's not it. I don't know he won't cost much as much is relative. I don't think he will cost much and I'm tired of people like me and you continually throwing out who we would trade for him. We have no say in the matter and I know this is realGM, but I'm tired of throwing out trade proposals. Gupta is the only one who matters. I'll leave it up to him.

[KGdaBom]

Shrink you are very likely correct about what we will do, but that way of looking at it is like the Mike Zimmer coaching philosophy. Get a small lead and turtle up hoping to hold on. IMO now is the perfect time for us to go for it. Just two different philosophies. Neither is necessarily right or wrong.

This is a great post and exactly how I feel about Simmons. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and hope it doesn’t come up snake-eyes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hear you, and I agree we need to make a move, but Simmons is not only a bad move, he is going all in on a 2 and 7 off suit. He is a bad fit which costs a fortune and with very significant risks. I listed everything above, but I will emphasize he cannot play with V8 he will significantly hamper Ant, his production would need to be significantly higher than V8’s to even consider trading for him and his contract is enormous. If he wants out before that we are worse off and even if he doesn’t we will likely be begging other teams to take him long before the 5 years is up. Oh and he is out of shape having not played or practiced seriously since the playoffs last year.

and I think you are wrong about everything bolded above.

[winforlose]

This is a great post and exactly how I feel about Simmons. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and hope it doesn’t come up snake-eyes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hear you, and I agree we need to make a move, but Simmons is not only a bad move, he is going all in on a 2 and 7 off suit. He is a bad fit which costs a fortune and with very significant risks. I listed everything above, but I will emphasize he cannot play with V8 he will significantly hamper Ant, his production would need to be significantly higher than V8’s to even consider trading for him and his contract is enormous. If he wants out before that we are worse off and even if he doesn’t we will likely be begging other teams to take him long before the 5 years is up. Oh and he is out of shape having not played or practiced seriously since the playoffs last year.

and I think you are wrong about everything bolded above.

To be clear, you are saying our starting five should include both V8 and Simmons? So then Dlo, Ant, V8, Simmons, KAT? This is not rhetorical, I am actually asking.

[BlacJacMac]

I don't really have one. I leave that to Gupta.

So you know he won't cost much, but have no idea what it would cost?

Got it.

That's not it. I don't know he won't cost much as much is relative. I don't think he will cost much and I'm tired of people like me and you continually throwing out who we would trade for him. We have no say in the matter and I know this is realGM, but I'm tired of throwing out trade proposals. Gupta is the only one who matters. I'll leave it up to him.

So if he's available for a low cost, why hasn't he been traded yet?

Just saying if you're going to assign relative value to a player, then do it. Don't dodge it.

[KGdaBom]

So you know he won't cost much, but have no idea what it would cost?

Got it.

That's not it. I don't know he won't cost much as much is relative. I don't think he will cost much and I'm tired of people like me and you continually throwing out who we would trade for him. We have no say in the matter and I know this is realGM, but I'm tired of throwing out trade proposals. Gupta is the only one who matters. I'll leave it up to him.

So if he's available for a low cost, why hasn't he been traded yet?

Just saying if you're going to assign relative value to a player, then do it. Don't dodge it.

I'm expecting him to eventually be available for a relatively low price. However, that is not my job to work it out. It's Gupta's. We are one of 29 teams to potentially trade for him. Odds are it won't happen.

[KGdaBom]

I hear you, and I agree we need to make a move, but Simmons is not only a bad move, he is going all in on a 2 and 7 off suit. He is a bad fit which costs a fortune and with very significant risks. I listed everything above, but I will emphasize he cannot play with V8 he will significantly hamper Ant, his production would need to be significantly higher than V8’s to even consider trading for him and his contract is enormous. If he wants out before that we are worse off and even if he doesn’t we will likely be begging other teams to take him long before the 5 years is up. Oh and he is out of shape having not played or practiced seriously since the playoffs last year.

and I think you are wrong about everything bolded above.

To be clear, you are saying our starting five should include both V8 and Simmons? So then Dlo, Ant, V8, Simmons, KAT? This is not rhetorical, I am actually asking.

absolutely not. I'm just saying that there will be times when Simmons and Vando can be on the court at the same time. Just like there can be times that Kat and Naz are on the court at the same time. Vando will primarily be the backup for Simmons if we ever make this trade which is extremely unlikely.

[winforlose]

and I think you are wrong about everything bolded above.

To be clear, you are saying our starting five should include both V8 and Simmons? So then Dlo, Ant, V8, Simmons, KAT? This is not rhetorical, I am actually asking.

absolutely not. I'm just saying that there will be times when Simmons and Vando can be on the court at the same time. Just like there can be times that Kat and Naz are on the court at the same time. Vando will primarily be the backup for Simmons if we ever make this trade which is extremely unlikely.

I grant you the trade is extremely unlikely. But I don’t see how two players with no 3 point or mid range shot can be expected to share the floor together. The opponents would just swarm the paint and the 3 shooters on the floor would be screwed.

[KGdaBom]

To be clear, you are saying our starting five should include both V8 and Simmons? So then Dlo, Ant, V8, Simmons, KAT? This is not rhetorical, I am actually asking.

absolutely not. I'm just saying that there will be times when Simmons and Vando can be on the court at the same time. Just like there can be times that Kat and Naz are on the court at the same time. Vando will primarily be the backup for Simmons if we ever make this trade which is extremely unlikely.

I grant you the trade is extremely unlikely. But I don’t see how two players with no 3 point or mid range shot can be expected to share the floor together. The opponents would just swarm the paint and the 3 shooters on the floor would be screwed.

It would be seldom that Simmons and Vando would share the court. Just like Kat and Naz don't share much.
How does opponents swarming the paint screw the shooters? It seems like that should make things simple for the shooters. Remember the facilitating skills that would be on the court at the same time.
Vando and Simmons sharing the court is a very minor part of my disagreement with you. My primary disagreement with you is you seem to think that all the skills Simmons brings would not make us a better team.

[winforlose]

absolutely not. I'm just saying that there will be times when Simmons and Vando can be on the court at the same time. Just like there can be times that Kat and Naz are on the court at the same time. Vando will primarily be the backup for Simmons if we ever make this trade which is extremely unlikely.

I grant you the trade is extremely unlikely. But I don’t see how two players with no 3 point or mid range shot can be expected to share the floor together. The opponents would just swarm the paint and the 3 shooters on the floor would be screwed.

It would be seldom that Simmons and Vando would share the court. Just like Kat and Naz don't share much.
How does opponents swarming the paint screw the shooters? It seems like that should make things simple for the shooters. Remember the facilitating skills that would be on the court at the same time.

No driving means perimeter zone. You have two people the defense can basically ignore and the perimeter defenders don’t need to worry nearly as much about the drive because they have help behind them. Worse still Ant is a low percentage 3 point shooter and Beasley/Prince have both collapsed. Puts a ton of pressure on KAT and Dlo to make contested 3s.

[KGdaBom]

I grant you the trade is extremely unlikely. But I don’t see how two players with no 3 point or mid range shot can be expected to share the floor together. The opponents would just swarm the paint and the 3 shooters on the floor would be screwed.

It would be seldom that Simmons and Vando would share the court. Just like Kat and Naz don't share much.
How does opponents swarming the paint screw the shooters? It seems like that should make things simple for the shooters. Remember the facilitating skills that would be on the court at the same time.

No driving means perimeter zone. You have two people the defense can basically ignore and the perimeter defenders don’t need to worry nearly as much about the drive because they have help behind them. Worse still Ant is a low percentage 3 point shooter and Beasley/Prince have both collapsed. Puts a ton of pressure on KAT and Dlo to make contested 3s.

I expanded on this post to better explain my stance. Please read again.

[Slim Tubby]

Shrink you are very likely correct about what we will do, but that way of looking at it is like the Mike Zimmer coaching philosophy. Get a small lead and turtle up hoping to hold on. IMO now is the perfect time for us to go for it. Just two different philosophies. Neither is necessarily right or wrong.

This is a great post and exactly how I feel about Simmons. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and hope it doesn’t come up snake-eyes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hear you, and I agree we need to make a move, but Simmons is not only a bad move, he is going all in on a 2 and 7 off suit. He is a bad fit which costs a fortune and with very significant risks. I listed everything above, but I will emphasize he cannot play with V8 he will significantly hamper Ant, his production would need to be significantly higher than V8’s to even consider trading for him and his contract is enormous. If he wants out before that we are worse off and even if he doesn’t we will likely be begging other teams to take him long before the 5 years is up. Oh and he is out of shape having not played or practiced seriously since the playoffs last year.

If the best odds I get on a Simmons trade is a pre-flop 2-7 off-suit, I respect your position.


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