Gobert has been pretty nasty this year

[Big J]

This happens much too frequently in the playoffs for a guy who makes his bones as a defensive stopper.

[JN61]

I can't remember if I have watched single game of theirs this year but come the spring time and there the Jazz hit you on the head and you realize they are 2nd in the standings and nobody mentioned them entire year.

[giannis and 1]

The last time Gobert did something nasty, he shut down the entire sports world.

Watch on YouTube

[GeorgeSears]

His numbers certainly look incredible.

[Lockdown504090]

same limitations going to hold him and this team back, hes gotta be a scorer.

[MTJazzv3]

He's fools gold who gets exposed every year in the playoffs. He can't create on offense, and he gets cooked by guards on D. Wake me up when he learns a skill that will work in the post season.

y

Sorry you hate anything Jazz and Utah.

[GSP]

Same flawed player as last season. Hes def a top 20, 25 player but has one of the worst contracts in the league.

[cupcakesnake]

Its great that he's made his strengths even stronger: some that are top notch in today's game.

What I dont understand is not acknowledging his weaknesses, and how important they are in this league. He can't hit the three on offense and spread the floor: which almost every other player in this league can do in 2021. Thats critical in a modern offense because it creates spacing and opportunities for other teammates, something that isn't currently available (ie something as simple as a pick and pop). On defense, he hasn't figured out how to defend the agile guards (though I dont know if he ever will with his mobility, size and speed). Teams continuing to attack that in the playoffs will be an issue for a reigning DPOY, as it has been before.

Hes making the most of his current offensive and defensive skillsets. But man, his game is really limited for someone who gets a lot of praise, accolades, and all-NBA awards over other players who are doing more for their teams (imo) & without the glaring gaps on both ends.

What I don't understand is not acknowledging the weaknesses of Steph Curry, Dame Lillard, Donovan Mitchell etc, and how important they are in this league. They can't protect the rim on defense, or even defend the paint. It's critical in a modern defense because it covers up the mistakes from the average/weak defenders getting blown by on the perimeter. Teams continually target and attack them in the playoffs and that will be an issue as it has before. On offense, they haven't figured out how to roll to the rim for dunks or hit 73% of field-goal attempts. They're all shooting between 39-45%!!! They get so few rebounds and never dunk on anyone! If you're getting less than 3 dunks per game, how are you a professional basketball player? Some of them wont get 3 dunks all year!

They're making the most of their current offensive and defensive skillets. But man, their games are really limited for guys who get a lot of praise, accolades, and all-NBA awards over other players who are doing more for their teams (IMHO) & without the glaring gaps on both ends.

[bbalnation]

Its great that he's made his strengths even stronger: some that are top notch in today's game.

What I dont understand is not acknowledging his weaknesses, and how important they are in this league. He can't hit the three on offense and spread the floor: which almost every other player in this league can do in 2021. Thats critical in a modern offense because it creates spacing and opportunities for other teammates, something that isn't currently available (ie something as simple as a pick and pop). On defense, he hasn't figured out how to defend the agile guards (though I dont know if he ever will with his mobility, size and speed). Teams continuing to attack that in the playoffs will be an issue for a reigning DPOY, as it has been before.

Hes making the most of his current offensive and defensive skillsets. But man, his game is really limited for someone who gets a lot of praise, accolades, and all-NBA awards over other players who are doing more for their teams (imo) & without the glaring gaps on both ends.

What I don't understand is not acknowledging the weaknesses of Steph Curry, Dame Lillard, Donovan Mitchell etc, and how important they are in this league. They can't protect the rim on defense, or even defend the paint. It's critical in a modern defense because it covers up the mistakes from the average/weak defenders getting blown by on the perimeter. Teams continually target and attack them in the playoffs and that will be an issue as it has before. On offense, they haven't figured out how to roll to the rim for dunks or hit 73% of field-goal attempts. They're all shooting between 39-45%!!! They get so few rebounds and never dunk on anyone! If you're getting less than 3 dunks per game, how are you a professional basketball player? Some of them wont get 3 dunks all year!

They're making the most of their current offensive and defensive skillets. But man, their games are really limited for guys who get a lot of praise, accolades, and all-NBA awards over other players who are doing more for their teams (IMHO) & without the glaring gaps on both ends.

Thats strange.

Sure, you can acknowledge the all or nothing aspect of my post. You could have done it pretty easily. I was waiting for a Shaq comparison.

Interesting that you chose perimeter players in teams that have designed defensive structures where they remain on the outside, and the weakness isn't as glaring. Whereas what im saying was: most nba bigs nowadays can hit the three and Rudy can't.


In any case, my point was more that:
Its hard to make for two extreme weaknesses that are critical in today's game, especially when they're separately on offense and defense. Youre making up for his weaknesses on both sides of the ball.

To me, he has shown time and time again (based off who he's lost to in playoff matchups and in the odd regular season matchup) that his strengths simply don't outweigh his weaknesses, like they did for Shaq.

Fwiw, it's not just Shaq dominance... I think they would for a player like Ben Simmons who can't hit the three back in 2019 with the Philly team that had Butler. The team a player is around ofc matters too. But Ben (who was a defensive 3/4 for them at times) only has that one glaring weakness of not being able to shoot the three, as opposed to Rudy, who also can't guard fast players.

I could have gotten my initial point off better.

[dhsilv2]

Its great that he's made his strengths even stronger: some that are top notch in today's game.

What I dont understand is not acknowledging his weaknesses, and how important they are in this league. He can't hit the three on offense and spread the floor: which almost every other player in this league can do in 2021. Thats critical in a modern offense because it creates spacing and opportunities for other teammates, something that isn't currently available (ie something as simple as a pick and pop). On defense, he hasn't figured out how to defend the agile guards (though I dont know if he ever will with his mobility, size and speed). Teams continuing to attack that in the playoffs will be an issue for a reigning DPOY, as it has been before.

Hes making the most of his current offensive and defensive skillsets. But man, his game is really limited for someone who gets a lot of praise, accolades, and all-NBA awards over other players who are doing more for their teams (imo) & without the glaring gaps on both ends.

What I don't understand is not acknowledging the weaknesses of Steph Curry, Dame Lillard, Donovan Mitchell etc, and how important they are in this league. They can't protect the rim on defense, or even defend the paint. It's critical in a modern defense because it covers up the mistakes from the average/weak defenders getting blown by on the perimeter. Teams continually target and attack them in the playoffs and that will be an issue as it has before. On offense, they haven't figured out how to roll to the rim for dunks or hit 73% of field-goal attempts. They're all shooting between 39-45%!!! They get so few rebounds and never dunk on anyone! If you're getting less than 3 dunks per game, how are you a professional basketball player? Some of them wont get 3 dunks all year!

They're making the most of their current offensive and defensive skillets. But man, their games are really limited for guys who get a lot of praise, accolades, and all-NBA awards over other players who are doing more for their teams (IMHO) & without the glaring gaps on both ends.

Thats strange.

Sure, you can acknowledge the all or nothing aspect of my post. You could have done it pretty easily. I was waiting for a Shaq comparison.

Interesting that you chose perimeter players in teams that have designed defensive structures where they remain on the outside, and the weakness isn't as glaring. Whereas what im saying was: most nba bigs nowadays can hit the three and Rudy can't.


In any case, my point was more that:
Its hard to make for two extreme weaknesses that are critical in today's game, especially when they're separately on offense and defense. Youre making up for his weaknesses on both sides of the ball.

To me, he has shown time and time again (based off who he's lost to in playoff matchups and in the odd regular season matchup) that his strengths simply don't outweigh his weaknesses, like they did for Shaq.

Fwiw, it's not just Shaq dominance... I think they would for a player like Ben Simmons who can't hit the three back in 2019 with the Philly team that had Butler. The team a player is around ofc matters too. But Ben (who was a defensive 3/4 for them at times) only has that one glaring weakness of not being able to shoot the three, as opposed to Rudy, who also can't guard fast players.

I could have gotten my initial point off better.

There's no real case I can see for Gobert hurting his team's offense. There's been a reasonable case made that when teams go small, it would be nice if he could punish them more for it..but that's nitpicking if anything.

The defensive thing is just imo a lack of understanding team defense. The jazz are not just a bad defensive team outside of Gobert. They're a horrible one! So while you mention some of these smaller guys mostly defend on the outside, Gobert gets drawn out due to poor defensive planning and worse...simply getting forced to do so due to awful teammate's on defense. To compound this his teammates can't even force guys to use two moves to drive past them.

All players have weaknesses and it's the job of coaches and teammates to cover those while letting you focus on strengths. Gobert is with teammates who are so terrible defensively they can't even slightly cover his mobility issues. That's a bigger issue than anything else.

[bbalnation]

What I don't understand is not acknowledging the weaknesses of Steph Curry, Dame Lillard, Donovan Mitchell etc, and how important they are in this league. They can't protect the rim on defense, or even defend the paint. It's critical in a modern defense because it covers up the mistakes from the average/weak defenders getting blown by on the perimeter. Teams continually target and attack them in the playoffs and that will be an issue as it has before. On offense, they haven't figured out how to roll to the rim for dunks or hit 73% of field-goal attempts. They're all shooting between 39-45%!!! They get so few rebounds and never dunk on anyone! If you're getting less than 3 dunks per game, how are you a professional basketball player? Some of them wont get 3 dunks all year!

They're making the most of their current offensive and defensive skillets. But man, their games are really limited for guys who get a lot of praise, accolades, and all-NBA awards over other players who are doing more for their teams (IMHO) & without the glaring gaps on both ends.

Thats strange.

Sure, you can acknowledge the all or nothing aspect of my post. You could have done it pretty easily. I was waiting for a Shaq comparison.

Interesting that you chose perimeter players in teams that have designed defensive structures where they remain on the outside, and the weakness isn't as glaring. Whereas what im saying was: most nba bigs nowadays can hit the three and Rudy can't.


In any case, my point was more that:
Its hard to make for two extreme weaknesses that are critical in today's game, especially when they're separately on offense and defense. Youre making up for his weaknesses on both sides of the ball.

To me, he has shown time and time again (based off who he's lost to in playoff matchups and in the odd regular season matchup) that his strengths simply don't outweigh his weaknesses, like they did for Shaq.

Fwiw, it's not just Shaq dominance... I think they would for a player like Ben Simmons who can't hit the three back in 2019 with the Philly team that had Butler. The team a player is around ofc matters too. But Ben (who was a defensive 3/4 for them at times) only has that one glaring weakness of not being able to shoot the three, as opposed to Rudy, who also can't guard fast players.

I could have gotten my initial point off better.

There's no real case I can see for Gobert hurting his team's offense. There's been a reasonable case made that when teams go small, it would be nice if he could punish them more for it..but that's nitpicking if anything.

The defensive thing is just imo a lack of understanding team defense. The jazz are not just a bad defensive team outside of Gobert. They're a horrible one! So while you mention some of these smaller guys mostly defend on the outside, Gobert gets drawn out due to poor defensive planning and worse...simply getting forced to do so due to awful teammate's on defense. To compound this his teammates can't even force guys to use two moves to drive past them.

All players have weaknesses and it's the job of coaches and teammates to cover those while letting you focus on strengths. Gobert is with teammates who are so terrible defensively they can't even slightly cover his mobility issues. That's a bigger issue than anything else.

Why would it be nitpicking? If teams go small to counter a 7 foot center and you can't punish them (like he couldn't against the Clippers, Rockets, etc): it sets the tone for the game & series.

A lack of understanding team defense? Lol.

This is a bad Jazz defensive team, with many poor individual defensive players. That isnt the convo here. There's a cap/limit on how much you can do when your anchor can't guard players on the outside effectively, especially when he can't punish them on the other side of the court as much (like Joel or other bigs who take up as much salary space can). In Rudy and the Jazzs case, they dont have enough to make up for his glaring weaknesses that are critical parts of the game in 2021. Eventually, a playoff team has the right player personnel to exploit the **** out of it. And they have. Every, single, year.

[cupcakesnake]

Thats strange.

Sure, you can acknowledge the all or nothing aspect of my post. You could have done it pretty easily. I was waiting for a Shaq comparison.

Interesting that you chose perimeter players in teams that have designed defensive structures where they remain on the outside, and the weakness isn't as glaring. Whereas what im saying was: most nba bigs nowadays can hit the three and Rudy can't.


In any case, my point was more that:
Its hard to make for two extreme weaknesses that are critical in today's game, especially when they're separately on offense and defense. Youre making up for his weaknesses on both sides of the ball.

To me, he has shown time and time again (based off who he's lost to in playoff matchups and in the odd regular season matchup) that his strengths simply don't outweigh his weaknesses, like they did for Shaq.

Fwiw, it's not just Shaq dominance... I think they would for a player like Ben Simmons who can't hit the three back in 2019 with the Philly team that had Butler. The team a player is around ofc matters too. But Ben (who was a defensive 3/4 for them at times) only has that one glaring weakness of not being able to shoot the three, as opposed to Rudy, who also can't guard fast players.

I could have gotten my initial point off better.

There's no real case I can see for Gobert hurting his team's offense. There's been a reasonable case made that when teams go small, it would be nice if he could punish them more for it..but that's nitpicking if anything.

The defensive thing is just imo a lack of understanding team defense. The jazz are not just a bad defensive team outside of Gobert. They're a horrible one! So while you mention some of these smaller guys mostly defend on the outside, Gobert gets drawn out due to poor defensive planning and worse...simply getting forced to do so due to awful teammate's on defense. To compound this his teammates can't even force guys to use two moves to drive past them.

All players have weaknesses and it's the job of coaches and teammates to cover those while letting you focus on strengths. Gobert is with teammates who are so terrible defensively they can't even slightly cover his mobility issues. That's a bigger issue than anything else.

Why would it be nitpicking? If teams go small to counter a 7 foot center and you can't punish them (like he couldn't against the Clippers, Rockets, etc): it sets the tone for the game & series.

A lack of understanding team defense? Lol.

This is a bad Jazz defensive team, with many poor individual defensive players. That isnt the convo here. There's a cap/limit on how much you can do when your anchor can't guard players on the outside effectively, especially when he can't punish them on the other side of the court as much (like Joel or other bigs who take up as much salary space can). In Rudy and the Jazzs case, they dont have enough to make up for his glaring weaknesses that are critical parts of the game in 2021. Eventually, a playoff team has the right player personnel to exploit the **** out of it. And they have. Every, single, year.

I disagree with your insight and analysis on Rudy Gobert. But that wasn't the point of my response. My point was a little more general: every player has weaknesses that get exploited in the playoffs and need to be accounted for when building out your roster. Gobert's weaknesses are not damning, and his strengths are considerable. Like Mutombo, Big Ben, Marc Gasol, Bogut, Tyson Chandler before him, Rudy's job is to make the paint an inefficient scoring zone for the opposing offense (as well as dominate the boards and provide some rim pressure as the roll man). Utah having poor perimeter defense is not Rudy's fault. Marc Gasol in his 2019 run, and Ben Wallace on his 2004-2005 run could do basically nothing to punish the other team offensively. Same goes for Bogut and Chandler, who both won championships as defensive anchors. Most of these guys signed massive contracts for their strengths, regardless of their limitations. Every player has limitations, so why do you care more about Gobert's weaknesses than any other players.

It would be nice if Rudy could shoot 3s, but that would probably make him an MVP contender, which he isn't. 3-point shooting is also not a problem for the Jazz. Lots of teams have won championships or gone on deep runs without 3-point shooting centers. It isn't the pre-requisite you're acting like it is by any stretch of the imagination. Last year Deandre Ayton made the finals, Clint Capela made the conference finals and both were effective. It's always better when players can do more things, but Rudy Gobert does a few things at an elite, all-time level. The Jazz didn't lose in the playoffs last year because of Rudy's shortcomings as a shooter or post-up threat. They lost because Donovan Mitchell and Mike Conley got hurt. Rudy's weaknesses are weaknesses for the Jazz, but so is their below-average perimeter defense and over-reliance on 3-point shooting. I agreed with the Rudy Gobert analysis when they lost to the Rockets and Warriors years ago. In the series since, that analysis has been a lazy farce without any numbers or film analysis to back it up.

[dhsilv2]

Thats strange.

Sure, you can acknowledge the all or nothing aspect of my post. You could have done it pretty easily. I was waiting for a Shaq comparison.

Interesting that you chose perimeter players in teams that have designed defensive structures where they remain on the outside, and the weakness isn't as glaring. Whereas what im saying was: most nba bigs nowadays can hit the three and Rudy can't.


In any case, my point was more that:
Its hard to make for two extreme weaknesses that are critical in today's game, especially when they're separately on offense and defense. Youre making up for his weaknesses on both sides of the ball.

To me, he has shown time and time again (based off who he's lost to in playoff matchups and in the odd regular season matchup) that his strengths simply don't outweigh his weaknesses, like they did for Shaq.

Fwiw, it's not just Shaq dominance... I think they would for a player like Ben Simmons who can't hit the three back in 2019 with the Philly team that had Butler. The team a player is around ofc matters too. But Ben (who was a defensive 3/4 for them at times) only has that one glaring weakness of not being able to shoot the three, as opposed to Rudy, who also can't guard fast players.

I could have gotten my initial point off better.

There's no real case I can see for Gobert hurting his team's offense. There's been a reasonable case made that when teams go small, it would be nice if he could punish them more for it..but that's nitpicking if anything.

The defensive thing is just imo a lack of understanding team defense. The jazz are not just a bad defensive team outside of Gobert. They're a horrible one! So while you mention some of these smaller guys mostly defend on the outside, Gobert gets drawn out due to poor defensive planning and worse...simply getting forced to do so due to awful teammate's on defense. To compound this his teammates can't even force guys to use two moves to drive past them.

All players have weaknesses and it's the job of coaches and teammates to cover those while letting you focus on strengths. Gobert is with teammates who are so terrible defensively they can't even slightly cover his mobility issues. That's a bigger issue than anything else.

Why would it be nitpicking? If teams go small to counter a 7 foot center and you can't punish them (like he couldn't against the Clippers, Rockets, etc): it sets the tone for the game & series.

A lack of understanding team defense? Lol.

This is a bad Jazz defensive team, with many poor individual defensive players. That isnt the convo here. There's a cap/limit on how much you can do when your anchor can't guard players on the outside effectively, especially when he can't punish them on the other side of the court as much (like Joel or other bigs who take up as much salary space can). In Rudy and the Jazzs case, they dont have enough to make up for his glaring weaknesses that are critical parts of the game in 2021. Eventually, a playoff team has the right player personnel to exploit the **** out of it. And they have. Every, single, year.

Gobert does not have any glaring weaknesses. Let me make this crystal clear. That is like saying is a worthless player because he can't defender the rim against Embiid in the paint.

That is a failing of the entire team defensive system!

The glaring problem is that the Jazz are not a bad, but a TERRIBLE defensive team outside of Gobert and no player in the history of the league can fill in all those holes. The jazz when they run a logical team defense (they often don't) get absolutely torn apart because they can't make timely and accurate rotations and this creates chaos where Gobert find himself in impossible positions. Sure if he were KG he would look better and be better in some of these situations and if you want to illustrate this as a weakness, that is also fair. It isn't glaring and you absolutely can build an all time great defense around Gobert. The Jazz have an all time awful defense with him patching the holes. There are just too many holes once a team game plans for the jazz's defense as a WHOLE. And that is what's happening. Teams are game planning to beat the JAZZ, they aren't targeting Gobert. Part of beating the jazz is to of course get Gobert away from the rim and this happens because the jazz defenders aren't good enough at rotating against ball movement or delaying drives from ball handlers.

[KGtabake]

Same hate every year by people who don't know how to value defense. It's ok though. Gobert will always be appreciated by the rest of us.

[Harry Garris]

Best player in Utah.. but of course mitchell gets all the credit.

And I fully believe that Gobert resents that fact.

[bbalnation]

There's no real case I can see for Gobert hurting his team's offense. There's been a reasonable case made that when teams go small, it would be nice if he could punish them more for it..but that's nitpicking if anything.

The defensive thing is just imo a lack of understanding team defense. The jazz are not just a bad defensive team outside of Gobert. They're a horrible one! So while you mention some of these smaller guys mostly defend on the outside, Gobert gets drawn out due to poor defensive planning and worse...simply getting forced to do so due to awful teammate's on defense. To compound this his teammates can't even force guys to use two moves to drive past them.

All players have weaknesses and it's the job of coaches and teammates to cover those while letting you focus on strengths. Gobert is with teammates who are so terrible defensively they can't even slightly cover his mobility issues. That's a bigger issue than anything else.

Why would it be nitpicking? If teams go small to counter a 7 foot center and you can't punish them (like he couldn't against the Clippers, Rockets, etc): it sets the tone for the game & series.

A lack of understanding team defense? Lol.

This is a bad Jazz defensive team, with many poor individual defensive players. That isnt the convo here. There's a cap/limit on how much you can do when your anchor can't guard players on the outside effectively, especially when he can't punish them on the other side of the court as much (like Joel or other bigs who take up as much salary space can). In Rudy and the Jazzs case, they dont have enough to make up for his glaring weaknesses that are critical parts of the game in 2021. Eventually, a playoff team has the right player personnel to exploit the **** out of it. And they have. Every, single, year.

I disagree with your insight and analysis on Rudy Gobert. But that wasn't the point of my response. My point was a little more general: every player has weaknesses that get exploited in the playoffs and need to be accounted for when building out your roster. Gobert's weaknesses are not damning, and his strengths are considerable. Like Mutombo, Big Ben, Marc Gasol, Bogut, Tyson Chandler before him, Rudy's job is to make the paint an inefficient scoring zone for the opposing offense (as well as dominate the boards and provide some rim pressure as the roll man). Utah having poor perimeter defense is not Rudy's fault. Marc Gasol in his 2019 run, and Ben Wallace on his 2004-2005 run could do basically nothing to punish the other team offensively. Same goes for Bogut and Chandler, who both won championships as defensive anchors. Most of these guys signed massive contracts for their strengths, regardless of their limitations. Every player has limitations, so why do you care more about Gobert's weaknesses than any other players.

It would be nice if Rudy could shoot 3s, but that would probably make him an MVP contender, which he isn't. 3-point shooting is also not a problem for the Jazz. Lots of teams have won championships or gone on deep runs without 3-point shooting centers. It isn't the pre-requisite you're acting like it is by any stretch of the imagination. Last year Deandre Ayton made the finals, Clint Capela made the conference finals and both were effective. It's always better when players can do more things, but Rudy Gobert does a few things at an elite, all-time level. The Jazz didn't lose in the playoffs last year because of Rudy's shortcomings as a shooter or post-up threat. They lost because Donovan Mitchell and Mike Conley got hurt. Rudy's weaknesses are weaknesses for the Jazz, but so is their below-average perimeter defense and over-reliance on 3-point shooting. I agreed with the Rudy Gobert analysis when they lost to the Rockets and Warriors years ago. In the series since, that analysis has been a lazy farce without any numbers or film analysis to back it up.

Um, no. Marc Gasol in 2019 is a poor example. The Raptors defense was not designed around it. He was a major contributor, in certain playoff series (and the anchor in those series, ie Philly/Bucks). In other playoff series, he was on the bench.

Our salary cap was not built around Marc Gasol. Thats part of this conversation to me.

Every era values defensive and offensive principles in different ways. On defense, a big part of that is what is most seen as a defense from the opposing teams offensive structures, which changes within some generations. I'll pass on speaking on Dikembe, Ben, etc.

Im really glad you brought up Deandre Ayton, who on offense has an array of post moves and can hit the three (20% at 0.3 attempts is enough for some spacing imo: he also has a midrange shot). Meanwhile, on defense, please refer to what his coach, Monty, just said yesterday (diff team, diff system):

Watch on YouTube

(minute 4:40)

I'm not saying he's an awful or bad player. I'm saying that his flaws offensively and defensively make him unplayable at times, and thats hard to justify someone who takes up that much salary space for a team in today's game, let alone a supposed DPOY candidate/winner.

[BrianFitz]

I still see the covid fiasco interview on my mind whenever I see his name, so I don't care about his numbers, Mitchell is still Utah's best player

What a weird thing to dwell on.

[dhsilv2]

I'm not saying he's an awful or bad player. I'm saying that his flaws make him unplayable at times, and thats hard to justify someone who takes up that much salary space for a team in today's game, let alone a supposed DPOY candidate/winner.

This is just completely false...there were like 2 games in his career where he was pulled, foolishly I might add.

[BigGargamel]

This happens much too frequently in the playoffs for a guy who makes his bones as a defensive stopper.

A 7 footer can't guard Stephen Curry off the dribble? What a bum.

[Dutchball97]

Statistically he should be between 5th and 8th in MVP rankings in the same tier as CP3, Butler and DeRozan. He's once again the most impactful defender in the league and has a bigger offensive footprint as well compared to previous years.

I agree he needs to show up in the play-offs before I'll see him as a different player but performance in previous seasons shouldn't impact voting on regular season awards.