Myth Busting - LeBron wouldn't be as good in the 90's

[Pennebaker]

Everyone knows LeBron would dominate any era.

He's one of the most adaptable players in the history of the game. For my money he's the most adaptable player ever.

Whatever needs to be done, LeBron can do it.

But LeBron is a type of guy that could figure out how to win any kind of competition. Any challenge. Look at his life. He wins everywhere.

[Kingdibs19]

So Lebron would not win an MVP over *checks notes* Malone & Barkley?

Hmm ok then.

The toughest team Jordan faced was Reggie Miller and scrubs. Or Ewing and Charlie Ward. Or Jazz that started Byron Scott and Greg Ostertag. Lebron had to face a 72 win Warriors team that added Durant to a nucleus of 2 GOAT shooters, prime DPOY Draymond and the best 6th man in the league in Igoudala.

[HEAT33]

Nah Lebron prob won’t won’t win MVP over Malone or Barkley. Plus MVP is not always going the the best player.

Yeah that 72 win team that added Durant beat Lebron. Maybe he needs more help lol
Lebron started the super team era and had to go join other stars to win, in the 90’s he probably would try to sign with the Bulls lol

MJs bulls with only Pippen and past prime Rodman would beat the Warriors in 6

[Jables]

Okay, myth busted then. Idk if there's real evidence in that wall of text but I'll take your word for it.

What's with these kids clowning on Malone & Barkley btw? We're gonna act like Russell Westbrook or Derrick Rose weren't winning MVPs now? They'd be winning MVPs today too over LeBron if **** Westbrook can, and I've stood up for Westbrook before as a player.

[camby23]

I don't feel like this is a big or popular enough opinion to warrant a thread. LeBron James played in the early & mid 2000s and was great. That style of ball wasn't drastically different from 90s basketball.

Well his stats between year 1 and year 2 are pretty drastically different, and that just so happens to be when hand checking was changed.

You are talking about 2003/2004 season, with the lowest ortg since 1978. We are talking about 90's. If you look at the numbers the 90's was more scoring friendly than 2005-2015 era.

Dont' forget that illgeal defense rule was removed in 2001. The early 00's was the hardest era to score in last 40 years. In 90's it was much easier to score.

[OdomFan]

Nah Lebron prob won’t won’t win MVP over Malone or Barkley. Plus MVP is not always going the the best player.

Yeah that 72 win team that added Durant beat Lebron. Maybe he needs more help lol
Lebron started the super team era and had to go join other stars to win, in the 90’s he probably would try to sign with the Bulls lol

MJs bulls with only Pippen and past prime Rodman would beat the Warriors in 6

I think he'd rather take his talents to south beach to go play with either Shaq and/or Penny (depending on when he goes there) in Orlando, or Tim Hardaway and Alonzo Mourning in Miami.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Im just gonna say it. Anybody who thinks Lebron wouldn't dominate is on crack.

[The Rebel]

So what? He's easily better than either of those guys, we don't know what type of team he'd have around him either so that shouldn't matter since it's not like the level of talent was the same in the league in the 90's compared to 2003-2021.

Considering the GOAT was playing in 90s and 2 of top 5 big men and 2 of the best PFs ever played on that era... Also still few years of Magic and of course top 8 PG ever in Stockton (+ numerous other top 10 players of their position). Not the level of talent of watered down eastern conference of late 00s and entire 10s? Don't think so.

Jordan played in a league where the average SG was like 6'3.. he was typically bigger than his defenders, he played in a league where zone defenses were not allowed and he could cook man-to-man with little to no help defense outside of hard doubles, more slow footed players, less talent in the aggregate. Guys like Hersey Hawkins, John Starks, Jeff Hornacek, Danny Ainge, Byron Scott, Joe Dumars were some of Jordan's biggest playoff rivals. There was a scarcity of talented wing defenders in the 1990s.

Lebron would feast playing in a less talented league where defenses couldn't load up on him and where he would have a strength, speed or height advantage on any defender.

LMAO this is why Lebron fans are laughed at, you have to make things up to argue, you cannot use facts. Like the fact that the average height of a SG in the NBA has stayed the same since the 1970s, and the average height in the NBA is lower today than it has been in 60 years.

You want to talk about scarcity of talent, and then talk about SGs, more than half the league needs a shooting guard right now, with many playing undersized combo and point guards meaningful minutes at SG because they cannot find anyone.

"Could LeBron be successful in our era? Yes. Would he be as successful? No." - Michael Jordan

Here's the full quote which came out in 2013 after LeBron had just won 2 championship with the Heatles:

When someone on TV compares LeBron to Oscar Robertson, Jordan fumes. He rolls his eyes, stretches his neck, frustrated. "It's absolutely … " he says, catching himself. "The point is, no one is critiquing the personnel that he's playing against. Their knowledge of how to play the game … that's not a fair comparison. That's not right … Could LeBron be successful in our era? Yes. Would he be as successful? No."

I don't really see what's problematic here. A large part of LeBron's success has been related to him eliminating the competition by forming super teams. To me, the full quote is Jordan basically saying that wouldn't really have happened in his era, and on top of that he would have to play against a dynasty Bulls team which likely would have made him less successful.

The advantage the Bulls had in the 1990s resembles the 2017-2019 Warriors more than any team Lebron has been on. Considering the state of 1990s basketball, where two all-stars virtually guarantees a team 60+ wins, Jordan's bulls were every bit of a super-team. They had a tremendous talent advantage over most of the league. Pair Lebron with Reggie Miller, David Robinson, or Patrick Ewing and he's on a team with higher championship odds than most teams he's ever been on.

The state of 90s basketball compared to the state of basketball between 2005-2015 is a joke. For all the **** people talk about the NBA being watered down due to expansion in the 90s, they ignore that it is still the same size as it was in the 90s. They also ignore the rash of injuries that took out all the top stars between 2005-2015. Just because you don't know their names or history does not mean that there were not plenty of stars in the 90s that were every bit as good as the all stars of today and in many cases better since the best of Lebron's generation ended up injured or on his team. We can go over that injured list, but who were the superstars that Lebron had to face in the Eastern Conference?

[dcstanley]

Considering the GOAT was playing in 90s and 2 of top 5 big men and 2 of the best PFs ever played on that era... Also still few years of Magic and of course top 8 PG ever in Stockton (+ numerous other top 10 players of their position). Not the level of talent of watered down eastern conference of late 00s and entire 10s? Don't think so.

Jordan played in a league where the average SG was like 6'3.. he was typically bigger than his defenders, he played in a league where zone defenses were not allowed and he could cook man-to-man with little to no help defense outside of hard doubles, more slow footed players, less talent in the aggregate. Guys like Hersey Hawkins, John Starks, Jeff Hornacek, Danny Ainge, Byron Scott, Joe Dumars were some of Jordan's biggest playoff rivals. There was a scarcity of talented wing defenders in the 1990s.

Lebron would feast playing in a less talented league where defenses couldn't load up on him and where he would have a strength, speed or height advantage on any defender.

LMAO this is why Lebron fans are laughed at, you have to make things up to argue, you cannot use facts. Like the fact that the average height of a SG in the NBA has stayed the same since the 1970s, and the average height in the NBA is lower today than it has been in 60 years.

You want to talk about scarcity of talent, and then talk about SGs, more than half the league needs a shooting guard right now, with many playing undersized combo and point guards meaningful minutes at SG because they cannot find anyone.

Here's the full quote which came out in 2013 after LeBron had just won 2 championship with the Heatles:



I don't really see what's problematic here. A large part of LeBron's success has been related to him eliminating the competition by forming super teams. To me, the full quote is Jordan basically saying that wouldn't really have happened in his era, and on top of that he would have to play against a dynasty Bulls team which likely would have made him less successful.

The advantage the Bulls had in the 1990s resembles the 2017-2019 Warriors more than any team Lebron has been on. Considering the state of 1990s basketball, where two all-stars virtually guarantees a team 60+ wins, Jordan's bulls were every bit of a super-team. They had a tremendous talent advantage over most of the league. Pair Lebron with Reggie Miller, David Robinson, or Patrick Ewing and he's on a team with higher championship odds than most teams he's ever been on.

The state of 90s basketball compared to the state of basketball between 2005-2015 is a joke. For all the **** people talk about the NBA being watered down due to expansion in the 90s, they ignore that it is still the same size as it was in the 90s. They also ignore the rash of injuries that took out all the top stars between 2005-2015. Just because you don't know their names or history does not mean that there were not plenty of stars in the 90s that were every bit as good as the all stars of today and in many cases better since the best of Lebron's generation ended up injured or on his team. We can go over that injured list, but who were the superstars that Lebron had to face in the Eastern Conference?

So you decided to focus on an off-hand remark that was intended to highlight the ridiculousness of 90s defensive schemes. The point remains, 90's illegal defense rules made isolation the preferred method of attack. Jordan was able to isolate on players that were not capable of guarding him.

Jordan himself was so opposed to modern zone defense that he claimed t would have significantly altered his career:

Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

The NBA historically has been a man-to-man-defense league that encouraged great individual play.

But as coaches, like Hubie Brown in the 1970s, began to devise defenses to help out, the NBA instituted a series of defense rules that began to look like the Internal Revenue Service code. There was good reason for each of them, but when combined they made little sense.

So games often are spent with players pointing to lines on the court where a player is supposed to be or isn't.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2001-04-01-0104010375-story.html
https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/michael-jordan-thought-michael-jordan-struggle-azone-defense-lebron-james-01e7dr8y7zvk

The rest of that post is completely dishonest. The dearth of talent in the 1990s is well documented-- the talent pool was thin and the league rapidly expanded to more teams than it could support. Yes, Lebron played in a historically weak conference but Jordan played in a historically weak league.

[ReddoverKobe]

Nah Lebron prob won’t won’t win MVP over Malone or Barkley. Plus MVP is not always going the the best player.

Yeah that 72 win team that added Durant beat Lebron. Maybe he needs more help lol
Lebron started the super team era and had to go join other stars to win, in the 90’s he probably would try to sign with the Bulls lol

MJs bulls with only Pippen and past prime Rodman would beat the Warriors in 6

Go look at the Roster of that Utah team those bulls struggled with and get back to us. Those Warrior teams destroy those bulls teams. Its not even close.

[gavran]

with no HGH who knows if Lebron would have been the same physical specimen he's been. Since most of his success is based on hitting the genetic lottery aided by PEDs I'm positive he wouldn't be as good back then. Still likely an all-star and NBA champion just not laughably in the GOAT discussion

The 90's...
No PED's...



Just your regular natty endurance athlete physique, no PED's there

https://youtu.be/BPCn_raDJf0
Steve Kerr, Zeke, Kenny Smith and others talked about taking PED's and crazy off the record **** given to horses, but sure, nobody had them in the decades most famous historically for juicing ...

He said PED's, not PEDo's

[Archerbro]

it's easier to defend with hand checking, it doesn't mean stars in todays nba wouldn't be good, it just means it'd be easier to guard them with the old rules.

[HomoSapien]

it's easier to defend with hand checking, it doesn't mean stars in todays nba wouldn't be good, it just means it'd be easier to guard them with the old rules.

Honestly, all you have to do if you don't get it is go on your drive way with a couple friends. Play one game where people handcheck, and play another where they're not allowed to.

Even for us mere mortals, it's a pretty crazy difference how much harder it is to score when someone is allowed to body up on you.

[dhsilv2]

Considering the GOAT was playing in 90s and 2 of top 5 big men and 2 of the best PFs ever played on that era... Also still few years of Magic and of course top 8 PG ever in Stockton (+ numerous other top 10 players of their position). Not the level of talent of watered down eastern conference of late 00s and entire 10s? Don't think so.

Jordan played in a league where the average SG was like 6'3.. he was typically bigger than his defenders, he played in a league where zone defenses were not allowed and he could cook man-to-man with little to no help defense outside of hard doubles, more slow footed players, less talent in the aggregate. Guys like Hersey Hawkins, John Starks, Jeff Hornacek, Danny Ainge, Byron Scott, Joe Dumars were some of Jordan's biggest playoff rivals. There was a scarcity of talented wing defenders in the 1990s.

Lebron would feast playing in a less talented league where defenses couldn't load up on him and where he would have a strength, speed or height advantage on any defender.

LMAO this is why Lebron fans are laughed at, you have to make things up to argue, you cannot use facts. Like the fact that the average height of a SG in the NBA has stayed the same since the 1970s, and the average height in the NBA is lower today than it has been in 60 years.

You want to talk about scarcity of talent, and then talk about SGs, more than half the league needs a shooting guard right now, with many playing undersized combo and point guards meaningful minutes at SG because they cannot find anyone.

Here's the full quote which came out in 2013 after LeBron had just won 2 championship with the Heatles:



I don't really see what's problematic here. A large part of LeBron's success has been related to him eliminating the competition by forming super teams. To me, the full quote is Jordan basically saying that wouldn't really have happened in his era, and on top of that he would have to play against a dynasty Bulls team which likely would have made him less successful.

The advantage the Bulls had in the 1990s resembles the 2017-2019 Warriors more than any team Lebron has been on. Considering the state of 1990s basketball, where two all-stars virtually guarantees a team 60+ wins, Jordan's bulls were every bit of a super-team. They had a tremendous talent advantage over most of the league. Pair Lebron with Reggie Miller, David Robinson, or Patrick Ewing and he's on a team with higher championship odds than most teams he's ever been on.

The state of 90s basketball compared to the state of basketball between 2005-2015 is a joke. For all the **** people talk about the NBA being watered down due to expansion in the 90s, they ignore that it is still the same size as it was in the 90s. They also ignore the rash of injuries that took out all the top stars between 2005-2015. Just because you don't know their names or history does not mean that there were not plenty of stars in the 90s that were every bit as good as the all stars of today and in many cases better since the best of Lebron's generation ended up injured or on his team. We can go over that injured list, but who were the superstars that Lebron had to face in the Eastern Conference?

Would be an interesting discussion to look at 96-04 vs 05-15. By the end of that second group, obviously the talent was vastly better but the league was still pretty awful in 05 much like it was from 98-01 or so.

[SeniorWalker]

I don't know who said this. Even the strongest LeBron haters know he's an athletic marvel with high skill and intelligence.


What I will say, is that his late career numbers are/will be inflated by era. These 35 year old plus years where he's not the high flyer anymore and he can't beat guys off the dribble 1 v 1. In the 90s his numbers would plummet, he wouldn't be near to catching Kareem. I'd say his Lakers years, played in the 90s, his numbers would probably be more pedestrian overall. He's look like Jordans wizard years.... although he is on his way to that now.


His prime (09-18) would be largely unaffected though.

[ty 4191]

98-99 season

The last season before removal of hand checking in its entirety.

99-00 season (first major steps toward handchecking removal)

Handchecking had been slowed down to a small degree in the late 90s, but not anywhere close to the massive change that was introduced starting in 99/00.

"In the backcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders. In the frontcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders except below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may only use his forearm."

So by this point, handchecking is for all intents and purposed removed - "There is no contact with hands" and "the defender may only use his forearm." below the FT line extended.

00-01 season - new rules that further decreased amount of contact allowed by a defender

"No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only."

"Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position"

Notice how this rule restricts offensive players' options as well. Even then, we will still see that offensively, the players of the 90s still did better under the new rules even with this restriction.

Others are going to attempt to use this offensive restriction as "proof" that if physical beasts like Lebron were allowed to play physical on offense in the 80s/90s, that they would dominate. That will be disproved later on.

"Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player."

"Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited."

"On the weakside, defenders must remain on the weakside outside the paint unless (i) they are double-teaming the ball, (ii) picking up a free cutter or (iii) closely guarding an offensive player."

01-02 season - Addition of illegal defensive 3 seconds rules to weaken defenses even more.

A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.

Some people mistakenly assume that this is the first season that zone was introduced, but that is another myth that we will eventually disprove.

This rule makes it much easier to drive in the lane, because bigs can no longer camp out in the lane and deter drives to the basket like they did in the 80s and 90s.

04-05 season

"New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game."

Notice that last part. nba.com itself has admitted that these rules opened up the game.

To show the impact of this rules, let's look at the 2004 Pistons and Spurs:

In the 2003/04 season, the Spurs and Pistons allowed 83.4 ppg on defense. They were the top 2 teams in the league in points allowed.

Right after 2004/05 rule changes, they were still the top 2 in points allowed, but the Spurs allowed 88.4 ppg and the Pistons allowed 89.5 ppg.

Now these points allowed might be lower than several teams in Jordan's era, but we see that this difference is more attributed to the decrease in offensive skil in addition to defensive. As proof, several players from the 80s/90s era of defense even after their prime locked down the top superstars of the 2000s WITHOUT the 80s/90s rules.

(To be continued...)

[ty 4191]

Here is one more thing to note before we continue.

In 1998/99, the last season of real defense, only 3 players averaged over 23 ppg.

After the 1999/00 rule changes to weaken defense, 9 players averaged over 23 ppg.

In 1998/99, the last season of real defense, only 5 players averaged 8+ apg.

After the 1999/00 rule changes to weaken defense, 9 players averaged 8+ apg.

In 1998/99, the last season of real defense, only 7 players averaged over 50% FG.

After the 1999/00 rule changes to weak defense, 15 players averaged over 50% FG.

The only players that averaged 50% FG in 98/99 were power forwards or centers.

[ty 4191]

Gary Payton
In his prime, 1995-1999

6th season - 19.3 ppg + 7.5 apg (Age 27) - won DPOY, led 1996 Sonics to the Finals where they won 2 games against the 72-10 Bulls.
7th season - 21.8 ppg + 7.1 apg (Age 28)
8th season - 19.2 ppg + 8.3 apg (Age 29)
9th season - 21.7 ppg + 8.7 apg (Age 30)

a past prime Payton for 4 years post 98-99 rule changes had

10th season - 24.2 ppg + 8.9 apg (age 31) - 99-00 season - first season without handchecking)
11th season - 23.1 ppg + 8.1 apg (Age 32)
12th season - 22.1 ppg + 9.0 apg (Age 33)
13th season - 20.4 ppg + 8.3 apg (Age 34)

Allen Iverson
In 98-99, WON the scoring title with only 26.8 ppg

Iverson the next year in 99-00 (after rule changes) had 28.4 ppg, but did NOT win the scoring title. That's the definition of inflated numbers and weak defense.

Here is another interesting note. Iverson's assists decreased every year from his rookie season to his third season.

1st season - 23.5 ppg + 7.5 apg
2nd season - 22.0 ppg + 6.2 apg
3rd season - 26.8 ppg + 4.6 apg (98-99)
then came the rule changes. You might expect that with more scoring, Iverson's assists would decrease. Let's see if that trend stays the same as we enter the "advanced and athletically superior" 2000s era

4th season - 28.4 ppg + 4.7 apg (99-00)
5th season - 31.1 ppg + 4.6 apg
so for now, Iverson's assists are the same as they were in the last season of 90s rules, but his scoring keeps increasing. Why is that the case if the new defenses and players are tougher and better?

6th season - 31.4 ppg + 5.5 apg.
7th season - 27.3 ppg + 5.5 apg - this is still higher than his ppg + apg in his last year in the 90s
8th season - 30.7 ppg + 7.9 apg
9th season - 33.0 ppg + 7.4 apg

So under the the new defenses in 2000s that are supposed to be so much tougher and advanced, Iverson's assists increase every year after decreasing every year in the 90s, even WITH his scoring increasing on top of that.

Chris Webber
In his first 6 seasons, never reached 22 ppg for a full season.

2nd season - 20.1 ppg
3rd season - 23.7 ppg (but he only played 15 games due to injury)
4th season - 20.1 ppg
5th season - 21.9 ppg
6th season - 20.0 ppg (98-99 season)

Then after the post-Jordan rule changes...

7th season - 24.5 ppg after the removal of handchecking (1999-00).
8th season - 27 ppg
9th season - 24.5 ppg
10th season - 23 ppg

Grant Hill
Never reached 21.5 ppg in his first 5 seasons

3rd season - 21.4 ppg
4th season - 21.1 ppg
5th season - 21.1 ppg (98-99 season)
Suddenly, after the removal of hand checking in 99-00

6th season - he magically averaged 25.8 pts, and his apg only decreased by 0.5 from the year before. He scored almost 5 ppg less in the "weak, unathletic" era of Jordan compared to the "advanced" 2000s era. Unfortunately, Grant Hill had serious injuries plaguing him for the rest of his career after this season

Penny Hardaway
Due to injuries, his scoring output decreased every year from his 3rd season (95-96) to his 6th season (98-99)

3rd season - 21.7 ppg + 7.1 apg
4th season - 20.5 ppg + 5.6 apg (played only 59 games)
5th season - 16.4 ppg + 3.6 apg (played only 19 games)
6th season - 15.8 ppg + 5.3 apg (first full season since his 3rd year)

7th season - In the 99-00 season after handchecking was removed, his scoring output magically increased from

15.8 ppg on 42% shooting to 16.9 ppg on 47%, and he even maintained his assist output of 5.3 apg from his 6th season. This is even after his performance was steadily decreasing every year due to injuries.

The soft defensive rules in the post-MJ era were so weak that even an injury-crippled shell of Penny Hardaway did better under the new rules. There's no way around it. The new "advanced" era of the 2000s not only offset Penny's consistent and rapid scoring decline each season, but they actually increased his scoring on top of that, and they were unable to decrease his apg output from the year before. His scoring only started declining in the 2000s again, because he only played 4 games in his 8th season due to injury.

Jamal Mashburn
He was plagued with injuries, so let's see how he did in the "weak" Jordan era and if he struggled against the "advanced" post-Jordan

2nd season - 24.1 ppg + 3.7 apg
3rd season - 23.4 ppg + 2.8 apg (18 games due to injury)
after injuries, his production fell horribly
4th season - 13.4 ppg + 3.5 apg (as a full time starter with the Heat in 32 games)
5th season - 15.1 ppg + 3.0 apg (48 games)
6th season - 14.8 ppg + 3.1 apg (23 games, 98-99)
now in the era of "advanced/more skilled" players, his numbers magically started increasing again after the rule changes, despite horrible regression in scoring due to injuries.

7th season - 17.5 ppg + 3.9 apg (76 games, 99-00 season )
8th season - 20.1 ppg + 5.4 apg (76 games,)
9th season - 21.5 ppg + 4.3 apg (45 games)
10th season - 21.6 ppg + 5.6 apg (82 games)

Even after his numbers steadily decreased every year since his 2nd season due to injury, they magically had a resurgence that not only offset his scoring decrease, but turned around and increased his scoring in the "advanced" post-Jordan era under the new rules.

His scoring might not have reached the scoring average he had in his 2nd and 3rd year, but for him to once again be averaging 20+ pts a game after his numbers steadily decreased every year due, and after multiple injuries, shows how weak the post-Jordan era actually was. And on top of that, his assists took a big jump, even AFTER his injury. Just like with Penny, the rule changes of the "advanced 2000s era" not only offset his consistent decline in production, but they started to increase it.

Allan Houston
3rd season - 19.7 ppg - he would never reach this mark for the rest of the 90s
4th season - 14.8 ppg
5th season - 18.4 ppg
6th season - 16.3 ppg (98-99)
now with the 99-00 season rule changes, he magically increased his scoring

7th season - 19.7 ppg (99-00)
8th season - 18.7 ppg
9th season - 20.4 ppg
10th season - 22.5 ppg
11th season - 18.5 ppg (03-04)

There was no difference between Houston's combined apg output from his 3rd to 6th season (2.6 apg) compared to his 7th to 11th season (2.5 apg).

Houston never reached 18.5 pts a game since his 3rd season. Somehow, 4 years later after the rule changes he immediately jumped from 16.3 ppg in his last season before the rule changes to between 18.5 and 22.5 a game for 5 straight seasons. I thought the newer post-Jordan era players were so "advanced and highly skilled," so why is Houston doing so much better against the post-Jordan competition?

Ray Allen
2nd season - 19.5 ppg + 4.3 apg
3rd season - 17.1 ppg + 3.6 apg (but he played 6 less mpg than his previous season, so his stats should be expected to decrease)
immediately after rule changes in 99-00

Allen played less minutes per game in these following seasons than he did in his 2nd season (19.5 ppg 4.3 apg), so he should be scoring less, right? After all, he's playing less minutes, and he's playing in the "athletically superior and advanced" 2000s era

4th season - 22.1 ppg + 3.8 apg (99-00)
5th season - 22.0 ppg + 4.6 apg
6th season - 21.8 ppg + 3.9 apg
7th season - 22.5 ppg + 4.4 apg (02-03)
after being traded to Seattle in his 7th season and playing more minutes, he averaged
24.5 ppg + 5.6 apg with the Sonics

Ray Allen was still not in his prime after his 4th season, so you would expect his numbers to increase. However, he still had a very large and sudden increase in production. If the new defenses are so much better, they shouldn't have let him score so much. The fact that they did shows that the post-Jordan era wasn't so hard to score in.

Eddie Jones
3rd season - 17.2 ppg
4th season - 16.9 ppg
5th season - 15.6 ppg - there was almost no difference in his mpg during these seasons
then came the rule changes

6th season - 20.1 ppg (99-00)
7th season - 17.4 ppg
8th season - 18.3 ppg
9th season - 18.5 ppg
10th season - 17.3 ppg (03-04)

Glenn Robinson
His 4th season (97/98) was the best of his career offensively, but he only played 56 games due to injury

4th season - 23.4 ppg + 2.8 apg (56 games)
5th season - 18.4 ppg + 2.1 apg (47 games) his minutes decreased by 7 mpg and on top of his injury, his stats should have decreased

Even after injury, he started playing well again against the "advanced" 2000s defenses and players

6th season - 20.9 ppg + 2.3 apg (99-00 season with rule changes)
7th season - 22.0 ppg + 3.3 apg
8th season - 20.7 ppg + 2.5 apg
9th season - 20.8 ppg + 3.0 apg

Despite being injured, in his 7th season he came very close to the best production he had in the 90s during his 4th season, and his assists in his 7th and 9th season were higher than in his 4th, despite playing against the "advanced" 2000s defenses. If modern defense was so much tougher, they should have been able to do a better job of containing a post-injury version of a player that competed in the "weak" 90s era.

John Stockton
By the time the rule changes came around, Stockton was a senior citizen.

15th season - 11.1 ppg + 7.5 apg (Age 36 - 98-99 season)

The "advanced and athletic" 2000s players couldn't
even slow down a short old white guy like Stockton
then rule changes were introduced

16th season - 12.1 ppg + 8.6 apg (Age 37)
17th season - 11.5 ppg + 8.7 apg (Age 38)
18th season - 13.4 ppg + 8.2 apg (Age 39)
19th season - 10.8 ppg + 7.7 apg (Age 40)

Stockton's FG% increased every season from his 15th season to his 18th season.

It was not until his 4th season after the rule changes at age 40 that Stockton regressed to the same production as his last season under the rule changes at age 36, and his apg was higher in every season post-rule changes than in 98/99 before the rule changes took place.

Now people are going to say, "Well, thats not much of a difference over those first 3 years." First of all, if the 2000s players and defenses are "more advanced and complex," then Stockton should be nowhere near the old production that he put up at age 36, let alone increasing it. The new 2000s era was so weak that they not only offset the decline in production of a senior citizen Stockton, but it actually enhanced it.

Secondly, this is a 37-40 year old Stockton. Are you telling me that the "advanced, athletically superior era" of the 2000s is so great that they do worse against a 37-40 year old Stockton compared to a 36 year old Stockton? It is highly suspicious that a 40 year old man is putting up the same production that he was 4 years earlier against the supposedly "weak and soft" 90s defenses.

Karl Malone
14th season - 23.8 ppg + 4.1 apg (98-99 MVP season, Age 35)

then rule changes happened....

15th season - 25.5 ppg + 3.7 apg (Age 36)
even at age 36, in a season that he didn't win MVP, his scoring and efficiency were higher than he was at age 35 and won the MVP

16th season - 23.2 ppg + 4.5 apg (Age 37) - That's only 0.6 pts less than his 98/99 MVP season before the rule changes. On top of that, his apg in this season were higher than the apg he put up the in his MVP season during 98/99, in the "weak" era of 90s defense.

Even at age 37 and far past his prime, he hardly experienced a decrease in his production going against the "advanced and athletically superior" defenders of the 2000s. The 2000s "advanced, athletically superior" era is so weak that a 37 year old past prime Karl Malone has practically the same scoring and efficiency that he did 2 years earlier in his MVP season, and with even more apg.

Antoine Walker

3rd season - 18.7 ppg + 3.1 apg (98/99 - last season of real defense)

Then the rule changes immediately inflated his numbers
4th season - 20.5 ppg + 3.7 apg
5th season - 23.4 ppg + 5.5 apg
6th season - 22.1 ppg + 5.0 apg

34, 35, and 36 year old Reggie Miller also exposed the bum defenses of the post-Jordan era in the 2000, 2001 and 2002 playoffs. There's a reason he couldn't make the Finals in the 90s even with a Pacers team with great interior defense with prime and/or healthy Smits, Antonio and Dale Davis, and Derrick McKey, but still made it to the 2000 Finals with no Antonio Davis (replaced by Austin Croshere), Smits in the last year of his career, and with Derrick McKey also at the tail end of his. In the 99/00, 00/01, and 01/02 seasons, a multitude of rule changes were added that would eventually lead to the complete removal of handchecking and defensive contact in 04/05, as well as the defensive 3 seconds rule to open up the lane in 01/02.

Reggie Miller (Age 34) had a real bad game in Game 1 against the Lakers of 7 points on 1/16 shooting in the 2000 Finals, and after that point he dropped 28 ppg on 48% in Games 2-6 vs the Lakers (Number 1 Defensive Rating) and outplayed Kobe offensively in every game that Kobe played aside from Game 1, including Reggie dropping 35 in Game 4. In his 4 full games of play, Kobe averaged 19 ppg on 37% against the weak and washed up 2000 Pacers team in the Finals.

Reggie Miller (Age 35) dropped 31.3 ppg on 46% on the 2001 Sixers team with a top 5 defense, and Hall of Fame coach Larry Brown that coached the 2004 Pistons defense. This Sixers team made the Finals during the 2001 playoffs. The new and weaker defensive rules enabled 35 year old Miller to also drop his career playoff high 41 points on the top 5 defense Sixers in Game 2.

Reggie Miller (Age 36) in the 2002 playoffs dropped 23.6 ppg on 51% against the Nets team (Number 1 Defensive Rating) that made the Finals in 2002, and pushed them to 5 games no less (when a first-round series was best of 5). This Nets team would go on to lock down Paul Pierce to 36% shooting in the ECF, after he averaged 26 ppg on 44% for the 2001/02 season

A 34, 35, 36 year old washed up Reggie Miller lit up 3 playoffs teams in 3 consecutive years, all of whom made the Finals and had at least a top 5 defense, thanks to weakened rule changes. Despite only averaging above 23 ppg once in his entire career, all the way back in 1989/90, he averaged over 23 ppg in three straight playoff series against three top 5 defenses in the post-Jordan era, thanks to the weakened rule changes. Not only that, but he was able to make the Finals for the only time in his career thanks to the watered down bum competition that came after Jordan's era, even though his 2000 Pacers team was far weaker than it was in the 90s.

In fact, Reggie Miller outplayed Allen Iverson in the 1999 and 2000 ECSF, and was almost even in 2001 during Allen Iverson's MVP season, as you can see in the photo. Iverson shot much less efficiently in the first 2 meetings, with much more bricklaying, which is the only reason he scored more.

Much more, here:

http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2014/09/section-1-players-from-jordans-day.html

Not saying I agree with the author.....but....he makes a very thorough and seemingly comprehensive case....

Thoughts?

[The Rebel]

Spoiler:

Jordan played in a league where the average SG was like 6'3.. he was typically bigger than his defenders, he played in a league where zone defenses were not allowed and he could cook man-to-man with little to no help defense outside of hard doubles, more slow footed players, less talent in the aggregate. Guys like Hersey Hawkins, John Starks, Jeff Hornacek, Danny Ainge, Byron Scott, Joe Dumars were some of Jordan's biggest playoff rivals. There was a scarcity of talented wing defenders in the 1990s.

Lebron would feast playing in a less talented league where defenses couldn't load up on him and where he would have a strength, speed or height advantage on any defender.

LMAO this is why Lebron fans are laughed at, you have to make things up to argue, you cannot use facts. Like the fact that the average height of a SG in the NBA has stayed the same since the 1970s, and the average height in the NBA is lower today than it has been in 60 years.

You want to talk about scarcity of talent, and then talk about SGs, more than half the league needs a shooting guard right now, with many playing undersized combo and point guards meaningful minutes at SG because they cannot find anyone.

The advantage the Bulls had in the 1990s resembles the 2017-2019 Warriors more than any team Lebron has been on. Considering the state of 1990s basketball, where two all-stars virtually guarantees a team 60+ wins, Jordan's bulls were every bit of a super-team. They had a tremendous talent advantage over most of the league. Pair Lebron with Reggie Miller, David Robinson, or Patrick Ewing and he's on a team with higher championship odds than most teams he's ever been on.

The state of 90s basketball compared to the state of basketball between 2005-2015 is a joke. For all the **** people talk about the NBA being watered down due to expansion in the 90s, they ignore that it is still the same size as it was in the 90s. They also ignore the rash of injuries that took out all the top stars between 2005-2015. Just because you don't know their names or history does not mean that there were not plenty of stars in the 90s that were every bit as good as the all stars of today and in many cases better since the best of Lebron's generation ended up injured or on his team. We can go over that injured list, but who were the superstars that Lebron had to face in the Eastern Conference?

So you decided to focus on an off-hand remark that was intended to highlight the ridiculousness of 90s defensive schemes. The point remains, 90's illegal defense rules made isolation the preferred method of attack. Jordan was able to isolate on players that were not capable of guarding him.

Jordan himself was so opposed to modern zone defense that he claimed t would have significantly altered his career:

Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

The NBA historically has been a man-to-man-defense league that encouraged great individual play.

But as coaches, like Hubie Brown in the 1970s, began to devise defenses to help out, the NBA instituted a series of defense rules that began to look like the Internal Revenue Service code. There was good reason for each of them, but when combined they made little sense.

So games often are spent with players pointing to lines on the court where a player is supposed to be or isn't.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2001-04-01-0104010375-story.html
https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/michael-jordan-thought-michael-jordan-struggle-azone-defense-lebron-james-01e7dr8y7zvk

Yes Man to man defense encourages one on one play, zone defense leaves shooters open at the 3 point line, teams have been using modified zones for 50 years because of that. The only ones who ignore that reality seem to be Lebron stans, I wonder why?

The rest of that post is completely dishonest. The dearth of talent in the 1990s is well documented-- the talent pool was thin and the league rapidly expanded to more teams than it could support. Yes, Lebron played in a historically weak conference but Jordan played in a historically weak league.

So instead of trying to argue with me you just call me dishonest? Well documented according to who? You? Other Lebron stans? Nobody talked about the lack of talent in the 90s, just like nobody has talked about the lack of talent over the last 20 years.

You want to talk about stars, we can do that, you want to talk about tanking teams? Who and how many multi time all stars came into the league between 2001-2011 and how many came into the league between 85-1994? HOw about the fact that in 97-98 there were 6 teams with less than 30 wins, last year there were 7.

We can have an honest debate about it, but I think it is pretty clear that you know you have no chance at winning it. You see some of us remember the 90s and don't get our opinions from pro-Lebron media pushing to increase their bottom line.

[art_tatum]

He would be great just not as good as his career in the current era. Especially when there wasn't enough power for players to collude and form superteams back then. You were at the mercy of your FO.

maybe borderline top 20 player if he played in the nineties /00s. Don't think he would win a title during the bulls dynasty (especially when he is young) then not against Shaq/Kobes dominance, then prime Spurs. Maybe 1 title in 17 yrs during the early/mid 2000s, taken from Spurs or heat perhaps. I mean iono. Duncan Ginóbili parker in their primes? Or 2006 finals wade? Or Celtics big 3? Kobe and gasol?


So i think he can get one maybe during 06, or from Kobe gasol.