Some of quotes for context:
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Heej wrote:I'm sorry but Wilt was kind of a plodder. He wasn't that nimble. I'm sure he was explosive and strong and all that but his mobility and agility and short area quickness sees him moving a lot more like a Steven Adams type than a Giannis or Shaq. He wasn't bouncy like that either, he had to really bend his knees and charge up his power dunks. He didn't have the balance and nimbleness to explode off the floor for a dunk mid dribble from any joint angle the way Giannis can. He always had to gather and 1-2 step into his moves methodically imo.
Def moved like a big more than a forward. And as I get older I've come to realize that the most important trait for basketball success other than height is a player's movement patterns/coordination/mobility/agility or whatever the hell you wanna call it. But the more you can move with the same kinesthetic reasoning and body control of a shorter man, the better an athlete you'll be by a greater degree vs other parameters like leaping ability or strength. Thus it's gotta be Wilt for me as far as being overrated. I find Shaq to be a far more impressive athlete tbh.
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70sFan wrote:Heej wrote:I'm sorry but Wilt was kind of a plodder. He wasn't that nimble. I'm sure he was explosive and strong and all that but his mobility and agility and short area quickness sees him moving a lot more like a Steven Adams type than a Giannis or Shaq.
You mean that kind of quickness and agility?
Wilt was also considerably more mobile than Shaq:
vs
I don't love either one defending the space, but calling Shaq more mobile or agile than Wilt doesn't make any sense. Shaq was very plodding on defense and I'm talking about peak Shaq - not past prime Miami version or something.He wasn't bouncy like that either, he had to really bend his knees and charge up his power dunks. He didn't have the balance and nimbleness to explode off the floor for a dunk mid dribble from any joint angle the way Giannis can. He always had to gather and 1-2 step into his moves methodically imo.
If you think Wilt wasn't bouncy, you should check out this play:
Don't focus on the first block, it's the second block that is the most impressive. Look at the way he positioned himself right after the first block and he stayed on the ground after the fake, ready to explode in a split second. It was a perfect example of "bounciness" and I can't imagine Shaq ever making that play.
What you're talking about his power dunks is also false, Wilt had a lot of quick yet powerful finishes on offensive glass:
If you're talking strictly about post moves, then Wilt was comfortable of going to the basket hard without long gather:Def moved like a big more than a forward. And as I get older I've come to realize that the most important trait for basketball success other than height is a player's movement patterns/coordination/mobility/agility or whatever the hell you wanna call it. But the more you can move with the same kinesthetic reasoning and body control of a shorter man, the better an athlete you'll be by a greater degree vs other parameters like leaping ability or strength. Thus it's gotta be Wilt for me as far as being overrated. I find Shaq to be a far more impressive athlete tbh.
I'm afraid you don't realize how many "stiff" or "plodding" moments you could find in prime Shaq game. Due to his massive frame, he looked uncomfortable trying to start runnning the break. His lateral movement was extremely limited. He had to put a lot of effort on every block attempt. You won't find Shaq doing some of the most spectacular Wilt blocks, because he had to gather himself before the jump and he wasn't a quick jumper. This is a big difference between him and Wilt, probably the biggest one on defensive end.
I agree that Shaq seemed to be more explosive inside, but calling Wilt more like Steven Adams than Shaq is, to be honest, quite ridiculous. Maybe that's because most footage we have from Wilt is from the 1970s when he was old and had knees problems. Prime Wilt certainly wasn't "stiff", "plodding" or anything like that. If anything, he was bouncier and more mobile than Shaq.
I won't touch Giannis comparison, because Wilt had like 3 inches and 50 lbs on Giannis.
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Heej wrote:70sFan wrote:*snip*
I appreciate the videos and all and they were nice to watch but I'm not sure you fully see what it is I'm getting at. Even in those videos you can see Wilt is straight up stiff in the hips and nowhere near as fluid an athlete as Bill Russell was. I have stated multiple times that he had exceptional power and explosiveness.
In regards to Shaq, you're linking videos of Shaq when he's a solid 50-100 lbs heavier than the videos of Wilt. Wilt wouldn't be able to move anywhere near as much as Shaq could if he weighed that much, and vice versa I found Orlando Shaq to be a more fluid and coordinated athlete when he played at a similar weight.
Which is why I don't subscribe to Wilt being the GOAT athlete. He may have been GOAT status in everything else, except the one trait that matters the most after size: coordination. You can't be the GOAT athlete if your movement patterns are essentially like those of a true big man.
I'm sorry but this clip is just a whole other level of fluidity compared to anything you showed me from Wilt. From the way Shaq hops on his feet and stays on balance vs lurching the way Wilt does to how in control he was in all of his movements and able to rapidly decelerate (which is another major contributing factor to your coordination, and to me Wilt lacked great talent in deceleration), he moves like a much smaller man. Almost like a forward If not the movement patterns of a big guard.
Now watch this video of Wilt's track and field exploits. What does his running pattern look like to you? A typical plodding, Leaning, lurching, slightly awkwardly uncoordinated big man. The movement patterns, especially the stiffness in his hips just smacks of a typical 5. Maybe he's hypercharged in every other category but his movement patterns are clearly those of a 5.
Now watch some of the fast break clips of Shaq. Does he run like a big man? Somewhat, yes but moreso like a big forward. The lackluster ballhandling works against him in this case but you can clearly see his balance is just naturally better and his hips are naturally more fluid. In short he's just a more fluid athlete, and at similar playing weights their explosiveness is highly comparable though I'm perfectly fine with giving Wilt the edge in raw power.
There's levels to this s*** as far as fluidity goes. And Wilt is good for his size but certainly not the GOAT as far as coordination goes for a man of his size. And thus to me he's the most overrated athlete and I would take Shaq over him as a pure athletic marvel any day of the week. And I would also urge RealGMers to consider the importance of fluidity when evaluating a player's build. For me personally, that trait is only second to size now when I look at a player's physicals.
