Andrew Wiggins owns CP3 with the Penny Hardaway step back.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

That penny hardaway move is ridiculous. One of my favourites. Just insane.

[bbalnation]

People don't realize what a special talent Wiggins is.
I never stopped believing in Maple Jordan. Always knew he'd be a star.

But he’s nothing close to being a star

A third option offensively averaging 19/4rbds with great splits and a threat for them as an iso player, who is a legit 2 way defender (individually and team wise) on a championship contender (19-3 without Klay)?

Maybe next year he averages 21. The year after 23. Hes figuring it out now, and hes pretty close. Not sure what your definition of "star" is, but being an allstar is a status quo definition of being a star (as an example).

What an interesting, all or nothing comment to make about a 26 year old who is on a winning team, putting up great stats.

[cupcakesnake]

He applied full court pressure on cp3 all game. I thought that was more impressive.

I love watching Kerr force Wiggins to play defense. The moment Wiggins isn't involved in the play, he gets out of his stance, drops his arms to his sides and ball watches. But if you force him to do it, Wiggins can straight up play man-to-man defense for 48 minutes lol. There has never been a stranger combination of elite stamina and low motor.

Wiggins is one of the worst off-ball defenders I've ever seen play in the NBA. But as an on-ball guy, he has outrageously quick/light feet, good length, quick jump to contest. He's not in the elite tier of ball hawks but he's not far off. If he had any intensity he could have been a all-defense guy.

[bbalnation]

He applied full court pressure on cp3 all game. I thought that was more impressive.

I love watching Kerr force Wiggins to play defense. The moment Wiggins isn't involved in the play, he gets out of his stance, drops his arms to his sides and ball watches. But if you force him to do it, Wiggins can straight up play man-to-man defense for 48 minutes lol. There has never been a stranger combination of elite stamina and low motor.

Wiggins is one of the worst off-ball defenders I've ever seen play in the NBA. But as an on-ball guy, he has outrageously quick/light feet, good length, quick jump to contest. He's not in the elite tier of ball hawks but he's not far off. If he had any intensity he could have been a all-defense guy.

Another out-dated, all or nothing claim about Wiggins.

Sure, going from the system in Minny to GSWs culture, and defensive system thats switch heavy and works perfectly with his build. As far as his intensity, in his early teen years, media would say that he had a "lack of drive unless it was for big games where hes boo'd". He has a different motor than others in the league. That motor does not work well in most work environments, and from a basketball POV: it did not for him imo. He wasn't his best self at all, or anywhere close, nor a positive contributor in a lot of ways, and a negative contributor in some ways, in a piss poor environment.

Lets look at his last 3 years in Golden State. I go with a combo of the eye test and some stats. Im not sure what metrics are out there for off ball defense.

We can look at steals and blocks. Every year with Golden State, he has gone down in those 2 stats (half in both since the first year he got there). That may be an example of a person who does not ball watch as much as he used to.

To say that Kerr puts him on Chris Paul for full court pressure all game to keep him engaged at this point, is strange. Wiggs has a size advantage over Chris, and at this stage of his career, speed isn't too far off, especially with all the help that GSW provide. Providing pressure all game on someone who makes decisions all game leads them to making more decisions, and perhaps more bad decisions (thats my basketball pov, esp if the system is in place, and the speed is there).

If you have other stats or view points that can show that he IS, one of the worst off-ball defenders you've ever seen, for a golden state team that is currently a pretty damn good defensive team, I would love to hear them.

[floppymoose]

Wiggins+Kuminga is a whole lot better than losing KD for nothing. Even if I had to sit through a year of DLo before it happened.

[dirkdiggler4177]

He always had the step back. That move, plus his athletic ability and defence was the reason he was drafted so high. He never improved on it, but now that he is on a good team he shines. I can't believe he will get another big contract.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Thread for the fadeaway but not one for JTA snatching McGee's soul? Surprising

That Penny move is still iconic decades later. Poster dunks are cool, but I see them fairly often. I also didn’t catch most of game, and saw this posted on Twitter and went nuts LOL.

[cupcakesnake]

He applied full court pressure on cp3 all game. I thought that was more impressive.

I love watching Kerr force Wiggins to play defense. The moment Wiggins isn't involved in the play, he gets out of his stance, drops his arms to his sides and ball watches. But if you force him to do it, Wiggins can straight up play man-to-man defense for 48 minutes lol. There has never been a stranger combination of elite stamina and low motor.

Wiggins is one of the worst off-ball defenders I've ever seen play in the NBA. But as an on-ball guy, he has outrageously quick/light feet, good length, quick jump to contest. He's not in the elite tier of ball hawks but he's not far off. If he had any intensity he could have been a all-defense guy.

Another out-dated, all or nothing claim about Wiggins.

Sure, going from the system in Minny to GSWs culture, and defensive system thats switch heavy and works perfectly with his build. As far as his intensity, that in his early teen years with the while "lack of drive unless it was for big games where hes boo'd". I dont deny this. He has a different motor than others in the league. That motor does not work well in most work environments, and from a basketball POV: it did not for him imo. He wasn't his best self at all, or anywhere close, nor a positive contributor in a lot of ways, and a negative contributor in some ways, in a piss poor environment.

Lets look at his last 3 years in Golden State. I go with a combo of the eye test and some stats. Im not sure what metrics are out there for off ball defense.

We can look at steals and blocks. Every single year with Golden State, he has gone down in those 2 stats (half in both since the first year he got there). That may be an example of a person who does not ball watch as much as he used to.

To say that Kerr puts him on Chris Paul for full court pressure all game to keep him engaged at this point, is strange. Wiggs has a size advantage over Chris, and at this stage of his career, speed isn't too far off, especially with all the help that GSW provide. Providing pressure all game on someone who makes decisions all game leads them to make more bad decisions (thats my basketball pov, esp if the system is in place, and the speed is there).


If you have other stats or view points that can show that he IS, one of the worst off-ball defenders you've ever seen, for a golden state team that is currently a pretty damn good defensive team, I would love to hear them.

What is "all or nothing" about me saying Wiggins is a good on-ball defender and poor off-ball defender? Naming someone's strengths and weaknesses is the opposite of all-or-nothing. All or nothing would be saying he is a great defender, or saying he's a horrible defender. That's what that expression means.

I'm definitely talking eye-test in my post. I've followed him since he was 15-years-old, mostly due to the coincidence of being a Canadian, a Minnesota fan, and a frequent tuner-in to late-night West Coast games. By far the biggest difference I've noticed in Wiggins' defense is how involved he is in the teams defensive scheme. Golden State keeps him in ball pressure situations as much as possible. Minnesota didn't use him so specifically.

But I don't think the burden of statistical proof lies on me. Most defensive catch-all metric that exists paints Wiggins as holding neutral-ish defensive value over his career. RAPTOR paints this as his best season, but only by a little biddy bit. DBPM has him as a strong negative in Minnesota and a mild negative in Golden State. I don't have new RAPM numbers but in Minne he was always a negative. This is all despite Wiggins always looking like a very good on-ball defender. If you don't think his defensive role has been different in Golden State, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't think that Golden State being a very good defensive team, and Minnesota being a brutally awful one, are going to affect Wiggins' numbers, I don't know what to tell you. I don't think the numbers are going to directly answer the question of his on-ball/off-ball effectiveness.

Numbers are tricky with capturing defensive value. I read all the defensive numbers, but I like to watch guys. I don't think I know a players defense until I've watched some tape on their off-ball defensive possessions. I'm not exaggerating to win an argument when I say I've probably watched Wiggins' off-ball defensive possessions as much as any fan could. He's bad! He's bad in Golden State. He's just utilized better. He still absolutely drops his stance when the ball swings to the weakside and floats around. I rarely (if ever) see Wiggins deny the ball, I rarely see Wiggins do his work early. He comes alive when the ball is in front of his face. He doesn't rotate well on the backline and he's only okay at defending the nail (the spot on the floor where long athletic wings usually dominate).

Not sure why you're talking about his steal and block numbers. His minutes are down in Golden State, but his steal and block rates are pretty consistent over his career.

You're very much fleshing out what I said about Wiggins to the point of straw-manning me a bit. I never said:
- Anything about his motor in different environments. I don't really care about that narrative.
- That he was only put on Chris Paul to keep him engaged and for no other reason. I think Wiggins is a great matchup for a ball dominant guard. I

I'm saying Wiggins is the type of player that you need to keep engaged to get value out of him. This is true on both sides. Kerr very clearly, from the moment they acquired Wiggins, understood this. Minnesota took 5 years and 4 coaches to figure this out offensively, and never figured it out defensively (outside of putting him on designated scorers in crunch time possessions). Wiggins has a huge focus problem. I remember once watching him get back cut on back-to-back possessions in crunch time by Gordan Hayward. In Golden State he's a designated ball-hawk in their defensive schemes and is needed less as a help defender, especially when he plays with Draymond Green. Wiggins and Greens play most of their minutes together for good reasons. They're the highest minute duo on the Warriors and Wiggins has played 545 of his 667 minutes with Green.

[ItsDanger]

I wonder how many fans who don't watch the Warriors often realize just how debilitated Wiggins was in the first game against the Suns this week. I cannot believe Kerr let him play following back spasms that had him looking geriatric on the floor like that. I'm super glad he got over them this quick. He looked normal tonight.

Wiggins plays hurt, unlike 90% of the rest of the league. Ouch, my pinkie! Oh, I have a headache.

[bbalnation]

I love watching Kerr force Wiggins to play defense. The moment Wiggins isn't involved in the play, he gets out of his stance, drops his arms to his sides and ball watches. But if you force him to do it, Wiggins can straight up play man-to-man defense for 48 minutes lol. There has never been a stranger combination of elite stamina and low motor.

Wiggins is one of the worst off-ball defenders I've ever seen play in the NBA. But as an on-ball guy, he has outrageously quick/light feet, good length, quick jump to contest. He's not in the elite tier of ball hawks but he's not far off. If he had any intensity he could have been a all-defense guy.

Another out-dated, all or nothing claim about Wiggins.

Sure, going from the system in Minny to GSWs culture, and defensive system thats switch heavy and works perfectly with his build. As far as his intensity, that in his early teen years with the while "lack of drive unless it was for big games where hes boo'd". I dont deny this. He has a different motor than others in the league. That motor does not work well in most work environments, and from a basketball POV: it did not for him imo. He wasn't his best self at all, or anywhere close, nor a positive contributor in a lot of ways, and a negative contributor in some ways, in a piss poor environment.

Lets look at his last 3 years in Golden State. I go with a combo of the eye test and some stats. Im not sure what metrics are out there for off ball defense.

We can look at steals and blocks. Every single year with Golden State, he has gone down in those 2 stats (half in both since the first year he got there). That may be an example of a person who does not ball watch as much as he used to.

To say that Kerr puts him on Chris Paul for full court pressure all game to keep him engaged at this point, is strange. Wiggs has a size advantage over Chris, and at this stage of his career, speed isn't too far off, especially with all the help that GSW provide. Providing pressure all game on someone who makes decisions all game leads them to make more bad decisions (thats my basketball pov, esp if the system is in place, and the speed is there).


If you have other stats or view points that can show that he IS, one of the worst off-ball defenders you've ever seen, for a golden state team that is currently a pretty damn good defensive team, I would love to hear them.

What is "all or nothing" about me saying Wiggins is a good on-ball defender and poor off-ball defender? Naming someone's strengths and weaknesses is the opposite of all-or-nothing. All or nothing would be saying he is a great defender, or saying he's a horrible defender. That's what that expression means.

I'm definitely talking eye-test in my post. I've followed him since he was 15-years-old, mostly due to the coincidence of being a Canadian, a Minnesota fan, and a frequent tuner-in to late-night West Coast games. By far the biggest difference I've noticed in Wiggins' defense is how involved he is in the teams defensive scheme. Golden State keeps him in ball pressure situations as much as possible. Minnesota didn't use him so specifically.

But I don't think the burden of statistical proof lies on me. Most defensive catch-all metric that exists paints Wiggins as holding neutral-ish defensive value over his career. RAPTOR paints this as his best season, but only by a little biddy bit. DBPM has him as a strong negative in Minnesota and a mild negative in Golden State. I don't have new RAPM numbers but in Minne he was always a negative. This is all despite Wiggins always looking like a very good on-ball defender. If you don't think his defensive role has been different in Golden State, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't think that Golden State being a very good defensive team, and Minnesota being a brutally awful one, are going to affect Wiggins' numbers, I don't know what to tell you. I don't think the numbers are going to directly answer the question of his on-ball/off-ball effectiveness.

Numbers are tricky with capturing defensive value. I read all the defensive numbers, but I like to watch guys. I don't think I know a players defense until I've watched some tape on their off-ball defensive possessions. I'm not exaggerating to win an argument when I say I've probably watched Wiggins' off-ball defensive possessions as much as any fan could. He's bad! He's bad in Golden State. He's just utilized better. He still absolutely drops his stance when the ball swings to the weakside and floats around. I rarely (if ever) see Wiggins deny the ball, I rarely see Wiggins do his work early. He comes alive when the ball is in front of his face. He doesn't rotate well on the backline and he's only okay at defending the nail (the spot on the floor where long athletic wings usually dominate).

Not sure why you're talking about his steal and block numbers. His minutes are down in Golden State, but his steal and block rates are pretty consistent over his career.

You're very much fleshing out what I said about Wiggins to the point of straw-manning me a bit. I never said:
- Anything about his motor in different environments. I don't really care about that narrative.
- That he was only put on Chris Paul to keep him engaged and for no other reason. I think Wiggins is a great matchup for a ball dominant guard. I

I'm saying Wiggins is the type of player that you need to keep engaged to get value out of him. This is true on both sides. Kerr very clearly, from the moment they acquired Wiggins, understood this. Minnesota took 5 years and 4 coaches to figure this out offensively, and never figured it out defensively (outside of putting him on designated scorers in crunch time possessions). Wiggins has a huge focus problem. I remember once watching him get back cut on back-to-back possessions in crunch time by Gordan Hayward. In Golden State he's a designated ball-hawk in their defensive schemes and is needed less as a help defender, especially when he plays with Draymond Green. Wiggins and Greens play most of their minutes together for good reasons. They're the highest minute duo on the Warriors and Wiggins has played 545 of his 667 minutes with Green.

People can grow and improve. Basketball players can get better.

You said he is one of the worst off ball defenders you have ever seen. Then you tell me the burden of statistical proof is on me even though you've made the statement lol. I presented an example with blocks and stats while he was in Golden State (they've gone down each year!) which you discredited, which is fine (I said may in my original point afterall).

You brought up advanced defensive stats from Minny which are part of context and focused heavily on them (citing a negative RAPM from Minny but not having it for Gstate, which is fair, but we're talking about Wiggins now). You then go on to discredit these advanced stats that don't paint a picture of "one of the worst off ball defenders".

For the ones you do cite and know from his days in Gstate, hes neutral these past 3 seasons (or close to). This season, hes neutral on winning basketball.

Then you talk about how Wiggins and Draymond (who many say ALSO carries Curry defensively to this day) share minutes and cite the exact # shared. What? Lol.

I think he's neutral defensively offball, maybe a bit below or above average still depending on who he plays. Thats definitely not "one of the worst off ball defenders".

He can be pretty bad sometimes off ball, in that he gets distracted once in a while and its highlight worthy. That doesn't make him one of the worst off ball defenders. Thats why I said all or nothing. I said out-dated for obvious reasons.

[FNQ]

Thread for the fadeaway but not one for JTA snatching McGee's soul? Surprising

When Hardaway did this move, it was a highlight for years.
But when Wiggins does the same move he doesn't deserve a thread?

You seem to not like him at all. Wiggins had many haters in Minesota but you may be one of the very few between Warriors fans

I’m a homer and a hater of the same player on the same board. Take a walk Stan. The play I referenced buzzed the building for a few minutes. This one got golf claps

[FNQ]

[tweet][/tweet]

Thread for the fadeaway but not one for JTA snatching McGee's soul? Surprising

That Penny move is still iconic decades later. Poster dunks are cool, but I see them fairly often. I also didn’t catch most of game, and saw this posted on Twitter and went nuts LOL.

It is a cool throwback, was hard to see at the game. Couldn’t remember when it happened though tbh

[pj0tr]

Wiggins completely shut down CP3 last night. It was very impressive. Even without Booker, Wiggins had CP3 locked up.

[vagelis]

Thread for the fadeaway but not one for JTA snatching McGee's soul? Surprising

When Hardaway did this move, it was a highlight for years.
But when Wiggins does the same move he doesn't deserve a thread?

You seem to not like him at all. Wiggins had many haters in Minesota but you may be one of the very few between Warriors fans

I’m a homer and a hater of the same player on the same board. Take a walk Stan. The play I referenced buzzed the building for a few minutes. This one got golf claps

OK, then JTA dunk maybe was all time great if you heared so much noise as you claim.
It is a new way to judje plays, we will ask you how much noise you heard from the fans.

I understand that you started hating Wiggins after some disagreements we had about him. But this is no reason to hate a player of your team.

[FNQ]

When Hardaway did this move, it was a highlight for years.
But when Wiggins does the same move he doesn't deserve a thread?

You seem to not like him at all. Wiggins had many haters in Minesota but you may be one of the very few between Warriors fans

I’m a homer and a hater of the same player on the same board. Take a walk Stan. The play I referenced buzzed the building for a few minutes. This one got golf claps

OK, then JTA dunk maybe was all time great if you heared so much noise as you claim.
It is a new way to judje plays, we will ask you how much noise you heard from the fans.

I understand that you started hating Wiggins after some disagreements we had about him. But this is no reason to hate a player of your team.

Lol I don’t care what you think about Wiggins. He’s a role player in a great situation for him. If that’s hate to you, so be it. But you literally exist here to post about Wiggins and have been getting salty about people not agreeing

I’ve been saying the same thing about Wiggins since last year. Back then the GB got mad because it couldn’t possibly be true. Fast forward a year, same argument and Wiggins homers are mad that it’s not enough

[NRSV]

Andrew Wiggins is a black hole who will never ever contribute to winning basketball.

Facts

[Texas Chuck]

[

I’ve been saying the same thing about Wiggins since last year. Back then the GB got mad because it couldn’t possibly be true. Fast forward a year, same argument and Wiggins homers are mad that it’s not enough

Frankly that's on you for trying to have a nuanced opinion on a player. Around these parts a player is either the worst or the best ever. There can be no honest attempt at evaluation of a middle ground. I mean look at the Steph exposed thread. Or the Luka is not going to be Lebron so he is worthless thread. Or the Trae is now the MVP thread. Or....

Wiggins either absolutely sucks. Or he's the best wing defender in the league. You must make a choice. You must.

[vagelis]

I’m a homer and a hater of the same player on the same board. Take a walk Stan. The play I referenced buzzed the building for a few minutes. This one got golf claps

OK, then JTA dunk maybe was all time great if you heared so much noise as you claim.
It is a new way to judje plays, we will ask you how much noise you heard from the fans.

I understand that you started hating Wiggins after some disagreements we had about him. But this is no reason to hate a player of your team.

Lol I don’t care what you think about Wiggins. He’s a role player in a great situation for him. If that’s hate to you, so be it. But you literally exist here to post about Wiggins and have been getting salty about people not agreeing

I’ve been saying the same thing about Wiggins since last year. Back then the GB got mad because it couldn’t possibly be true. Fast forward a year, same argument and Wiggins homers are mad that it’s not enough

I never go salty about anyone who discusses with arguments and is not arrogant.
I think you said take a walk stan, and I am the one who is getting salty?
You have said it 1000 times that Wiggins is a role player. I don't find a reason for you to repeat your self like that.
And I really believe you are the greatest hater of him right now just because we had some disagreements. Take a second and just think about it, or continue to post that he is a role player and that he has terrible handles

[dockingsched]

Penny was by favorite player, so I appreciate someone incorporating the Penny move.

Wiggins’s footwork isn’t quite the same though, doesn’t have the smooth two footed hop penny did. That’s what makes Penny’s so pleasing to the eye.

[bbalnation]

I’m a homer and a hater of the same player on the same board. Take a walk Stan. The play I referenced buzzed the building for a few minutes. This one got golf claps

OK, then JTA dunk maybe was all time great if you heared so much noise as you claim.
It is a new way to judje plays, we will ask you how much noise you heard from the fans.

I understand that you started hating Wiggins after some disagreements we had about him. But this is no reason to hate a player of your team.

Lol I don’t care what you think about Wiggins. He’s a role player in a great situation for him. If that’s hate to you, so be it. But you literally exist here to post about Wiggins and have been getting salty about people not agreeing

I’ve been saying the same thing about Wiggins since last year. Back then the GB got mad because it couldn’t possibly be true. Fast forward a year, same argument and Wiggins homers are mad that it’s not enough

Reminds me a lot of Pascal in terms of taking that next step. Not ANYTHING else in the way they play or move (or their careers/upbringing).

But just, being a star role player, (2018 and 2019 Pascal) who could eventually be a star himself (imo).