Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list

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What's your overall assessment of the list?

Great
4
8%
Very good
12
24%
Good
13
26%
So so
13
26%
Bad
8
16%
I don't care for polls.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 50

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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#21 » by youngcrev » Sun Dec 5, 2021 3:24 am

SharpyShuffle wrote:Dwight far too low, as usual on these things. Remember when Patrick Ewing was the consensus second-best player in the league for about five years and dragged a mediocre team to the finals (The Knicks were much better, and Dwight went through LBJ)? No, me neither.


Implying Dwight was the consensus second best player in the league for 5 years? Yeah, that's definitely not true. His best years overlapped with Lebron's early greatness and Kobe actually winning titles. Sprinkle in some Dirk, KG, CP3, Durant, Wade, Rose...

There was a time that he was thought of as possibly the 2nd best cornerstone player to build a franchise taking into account impact, age and position (when centers were still held in high regard)... but certainly not consensus, and hey, sometimes people get it wrong in the moment. Melo probably would have been higher on those lists than he should have been in hindsight as well.

I mean, don't get wrong, Dwight was definitely a stud in his prime. Freak athlete, amazing rim protector and rebounder that could finish strong inside. His offense was only so-so though, and I always thought his teams did worse the more they tried to feature him in the post on that end. I think the gap between him and Ewing offensively is pretty enormous, while Ewing's also an elite defender in his own right.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#22 » by Mickey8 » Sun Dec 5, 2021 3:28 am

I think players who are in the middle of their careers shouldn't be on any lists, until their careers are over or they are out of their prime years.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#23 » by Winsome Gerbil » Sun Dec 5, 2021 3:37 am

This one is messy as it goes along.

The first 5 are pretty much well known. I have Wilt over Russell, but the 5 are the 5. And Moses over Admiral is at least arguable -- I used to have it that way myself until I really went back and took a deeper look at Moses. Ewing at 8, and making sure Mikan got in the Top 10 = all good. I would call the list from #1-#9 completely unexceptional. In a better list you might legit call Duncan a C and acknowledge the greatness of Sabas, but if they stopped their list with their Top 9 I wouldn't even bother posting here. Unfortunately they did not.

But after that Hoopshype's on and off longevity fetish, which is never applies consistently, makes a mess of things.

Why, exactly, is McAdoo at #10? He did have an MVP, but his longevity wasn't more than the other guys, he didn't win more until a stint as a Lakers bencher, and he didn't play the defense some of the others played.

And why exactly is Wes, the most limited and oddest of the group #11? Because his son is coaching now? And on what planet (or consistent theory) is Parish #12? he was never even anybody's franchise guy, was a good defender, but never legendary, was a #2 or #3 who never averaged 20+...there's no rhyme or reason there. He's behind two weaker MVPs, then ahead of stronger MVPs. Then we go short career guys like Willis, diss Artis, forget about Lanier, forget about Mourning and throw Deke in ahead of him, make clear from Walton's placement that this isn't actually about how good or talented you were...the whole 2nd group is a mess, not that it's ever been obviously clear cut.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Moses Malone
7. David Robinson
8. Patrick Ewing
9. George Mikan
-------------------------------
10. Bob McAdoo
11. Wes Unseld
12. Robert Parish
13. Willis Reed
14. Dwight Howard
15. Dave Cowens
16. Bill Walton
17. Artis Gilmore
18. Nate Thurmond
19. Nikola Jokic
20. Dikembe Mutombo

Not to mention: Mourning, Bellamy, Sampson, Embiid, Cousins, Yao, Lanier, Daugherty, Sabonis, Issel
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#24 » by NRSV » Sun Dec 5, 2021 3:40 am

I’ve seen a lot worse. Pretty good.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#25 » by Catchall » Sun Dec 5, 2021 3:44 am

Maybe I'm remembering Dan Issel being better than he was, but I'd have him ahead of several of these guys. Issel was a pretty big-time shooter and scorer for a big.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#26 » by Cope » Sun Dec 5, 2021 4:06 am

Does Gobert make this list by the end of his career?
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#27 » by Winsome Gerbil » Sun Dec 5, 2021 4:35 am

Screw it, I'm going to mark up my own list of the Top 30 guys and fix what I can here:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Moses Malone
7. David Robinson
<---------------------------------- Highest likely Embiid (longevity) and Jokic (no D) eventual placements
8. Patrick Ewing
9. George Mikan
-------------------------------
10. Bill Walton 2x All-NBA, 1x MVP (very short career)
11. Arvydas Sabonis (International Star) (very short peak career)
12. Nikola Jokic 3x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)
13. Alonzo Mourning 2x All-NBA (short career)
14. Dwight Howard 8x AllNBA
15. Artis Gilmore (ABA Star)
16. Dave Cowens 3x All-NBA, 1x MVP (short career)
17. Bob McAdoo 2x All-NBA, 1x MVP (only impactful on one side of the ball)
18. Joel Embiid 3x All-NBA (very short career)
19. Willis Reed 5x AllNBA (short career)
20. Bob Lanier
21. Nate Thurmond (only impactful on one side of the ball)
22. DeMarcus Cousins 2x All-NBA (short peak career)
23. Yao Ming 5x All-NBA (short peak career)
24. Wes Unseld 1x All-NBA, 1x MVP (only impactful on one side of the ball)
25. Dikembe Mutombo 3x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)
26. Robert Parish 2x All-NBA
27. Walt Bellamy
28. Dan Issel (ABA Star) (only impactful on one side of the ball)
29. Ralph Sampson 1x All-NBA (very short career)
30. Brad Daugherty 1x All-NBA (short career) (only impactful on one side of the ball)
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Re: Hoopshype's 

Post#28 » by poultryfan » Sun Dec 5, 2021 5:06 am

Even if you're considering Dwight's career in its entirety he's still too low. Yeah he was a malcontent for a while but he eventually did buy in as back up big, and he's been fantastic in that role for the past 2-3 years. His defensive instincts in particular are still off the charts good.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#29 » by AleksandarN » Sun Dec 5, 2021 5:13 am

Winsome Gerbil wrote:Screw it, I'm going to mark up my own list of the Top 30 guys and fix what I can here:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Moses Malone
7. David Robinson
<---------------------------------- Highest likely Embiid (longevity) and Jokic (no D) eventual placements
8. Patrick Ewing
9. George Mikan
-------------------------------
10. Bill Walton 2x All-NBA, 1x MVP (very short career)
11. Arvydas Sabonis (International Star) (very short peak career)
12. Nikola Jokic 3x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)
13. Alonzo Mourning 2x All-NBA (short career)
14. Dwight Howard 8x AllNBA
15. Artis Gilmore (ABA Star)
16. Dave Cowens 3x All-NBA, 1x MVP (short career)
17. Bob McAdoo 2x All-NBA, 1x MVP (only impactful on one side of the ball)
18. Joel Embiid 3x All-NBA (very short career)
19. Willis Reed 5x AllNBA (short career)
20. Bob Lanier
21. Nate Thurmond (only impactful on one side of the ball)
22. DeMarcus Cousins 2x All-NBA (short peak career)
23. Yao Ming 5x All-NBA (short peak career)
24. Wes Unseld 1x All-NBA, 1x MVP (only impactful on one side of the ball)
25. Dikembe Mutombo 3x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)
26. Robert Parish 2x All-NBA
27. Walt Bellamy
28. Dan Issel (ABA Star) (only impactful on one side of the ball)
29. Ralph Sampson 1x All-NBA (very short career)
30. Brad Daugherty 1x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)


Ewing is over rated
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#30 » by Winsome Gerbil » Sun Dec 5, 2021 5:23 am

AleksandarN wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:Screw it, I'm going to mark up my own list of the Top 30 guys and fix what I can here:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Moses Malone
7. David Robinson
<---------------------------------- Highest likely Embiid (longevity) and Jokic (no D) eventual placements
8. Patrick Ewing
9. George Mikan
-------------------------------
10. Bill Walton 2x All-NBA, 1x MVP (very short career)
11. Arvydas Sabonis (International Star) (very short peak career)
12. Nikola Jokic 3x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)
13. Alonzo Mourning 2x All-NBA (short career)
14. Dwight Howard 8x AllNBA
15. Artis Gilmore (ABA Star)
16. Dave Cowens 3x All-NBA, 1x MVP (short career)
17. Bob McAdoo 2x All-NBA, 1x MVP (only impactful on one side of the ball)
18. Joel Embiid 3x All-NBA (very short career)
19. Willis Reed 5x AllNBA (short career)
20. Bob Lanier
21. Nate Thurmond (only impactful on one side of the ball)
22. DeMarcus Cousins 2x All-NBA (short peak career)
23. Yao Ming 5x All-NBA (short peak career)
24. Wes Unseld 1x All-NBA, 1x MVP (only impactful on one side of the ball)
25. Dikembe Mutombo 3x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)
26. Robert Parish 2x All-NBA
27. Walt Bellamy
28. Dan Issel (ABA Star) (only impactful on one side of the ball)
29. Ralph Sampson 1x All-NBA (very short career)
30. Brad Daugherty 1x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)


Ewing is over rated


Is he? He was an 11x All Star and 7x All NBA center right through the very toughest era to make All NBA as a center, and anchored the greatest defense of its era (and one of the best ever). He was not quite the free flowing all around superstar that Hakeem and Admiral were, but all he did was average 20+pts for 13 straight seasons. If he was called Top 20, yes, overrated. But his position as "best of the rest" was just about right. A franchise center ALMOST good enough to win a title with. Almost. Just lacking that dash of magic/clutch/unselfishness.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#31 » by draftnightsuit » Sun Dec 5, 2021 11:04 am

Ewing and Jokic too high, Dwight too low. Mutombo shouldn’t be on the list. Ben Wallace was better than Mutombo at his peak.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#32 » by 70sFan » Sun Dec 5, 2021 11:21 am

SharpyShuffle wrote:Dwight far too low, as usual on these things. Remember when Patrick Ewing was the consensus second-best player in the league for about five years and dragged a mediocre team to the finals (The Knicks were much better, and Dwight went through LBJ)? No, me neither.

Ewing was far better than Howard and has incomparably better career. Dwight has no case over Ewing.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#33 » by 70sFan » Sun Dec 5, 2021 11:23 am

MrBigShot wrote:Imo embiid should be on there. I'd put Shaq and Hakeem over Wilt and Russell as well. I think Ben Wallace has a really good argument to be on there, he's probably one of the 3 greatest defensive players of all time.

Embiid has no case for top 20 for now, center position is way too stacked.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#34 » by 70sFan » Sun Dec 5, 2021 11:24 am

draftnightsuit wrote:Ewing and Jokic too high, Dwight too low. Mutombo shouldn’t be on the list. Ben Wallace was better than Mutombo at his peak.

Mutombo was clearly a better defender and overall player than Wallace. On top of that, he had longer and better career. Don't see this point at all.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#35 » by 70sFan » Sun Dec 5, 2021 11:27 am

The biggest omission is Bob Lanier. There is no way to left him outside top 20. He has everything you need to have - excellent prime and peak, solid longevity, great playoff resiliancy. He's overlooked simply because of those mediocre Pistons teams. He carried them heavily.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#36 » by Diop » Sun Dec 5, 2021 11:58 am

What about Rik Smits?
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#37 » by Stalwart » Sun Dec 5, 2021 1:17 pm

Patrick Ewing might be the least accomplished great player in nba history
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#38 » by migya » Sun Dec 5, 2021 1:58 pm

Alonzo Mourning should be on there and higher than Mutombo and Dwight.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#39 » by nate33 » Sun Dec 5, 2021 2:07 pm

Winsome Gerbil wrote:Screw it, I'm going to mark up my own list of the Top 30 guys and fix what I can here:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Moses Malone
7. David Robinson
<---------------------------------- Highest likely Embiid (longevity) and Jokic (no D) eventual placements
8. Patrick Ewing
9. George Mikan
-------------------------------
10. Bill Walton 2x All-NBA, 1x MVP (very short career)
11. Arvydas Sabonis (International Star) (very short peak career)
12. Nikola Jokic 3x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)
13. Alonzo Mourning 2x All-NBA (short career)
14. Dwight Howard 8x AllNBA
15. Artis Gilmore (ABA Star)
16. Dave Cowens 3x All-NBA, 1x MVP (short career)
17. Bob McAdoo 2x All-NBA, 1x MVP (only impactful on one side of the ball)
18. Joel Embiid 3x All-NBA (very short career)
19. Willis Reed 5x AllNBA (short career)
20. Bob Lanier
21. Nate Thurmond (only impactful on one side of the ball)
22. DeMarcus Cousins 2x All-NBA (short peak career)
23. Yao Ming 5x All-NBA (short peak career)
24. Wes Unseld 1x All-NBA, 1x MVP (only impactful on one side of the ball)
25. Dikembe Mutombo 3x All-NBA (only impactful on one side of the ball)
26. Robert Parish 2x All-NBA
27. Walt Bellamy
28. Dan Issel (ABA Star) (only impactful on one side of the ball)
29. Ralph Sampson 1x All-NBA (very short career)
30. Brad Daugherty 1x All-NBA (short career) (only impactful on one side of the ball)


I like this list a lot better. It rightfully credits Jokic for already having a career comparable to Bill Walton. I'd put Howard ahead of Mourning. Cousins wouldn't make my top 30 and he sure as hell isn't ahead of Wes, Mutombo and Parish.

I wouldn't put Mikan so high, but that's really more of an argument about how one treats different eras.
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Re: Hoopshype's "20 Greatest Cs ever" list 

Post#40 » by nomansland » Sun Dec 5, 2021 2:13 pm

Of all of their lists, this is the worst one. Hakeem is too low, Wilt should be first, and Jokic should be in the top 15.

That said, I agree with Mickey8 that nobody who is still active should be included in these lists.

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