bwgood77 wrote:I think we are probably fine with an 9 man rotation and Nader as an emergency wing if we need him. Even at 8 guys we could handle it. Nader has played poorly this season but on a small sample and last season shot almost 42% from 3. Then if Kaminsky comes back later he is a fine emergency big. I don't think too many teams play much more than an 8 man rotation in the playoffs. Obviously injuries could kill us but if we lose one of our main guys we will be hard pressed no matter what we do. We can't trade for one of these big names so that's pretty pointless.
I seriously doubt they will trade either Cam or Crowder. We are 19-4 and have missed Ayton and Booker for some games. I wouldn't worry too much about things, especially since we will likely be able to get someone in the buyout market. I don't imagine more than 1 guy, maybe 2, but we don't need much. These guys having to step up with injuries and play more minutes, like Cam and Kaminsky I think really helped give them confidence we can use going forward when they return. And we know Monty will use Nader, for better or worse, but he should get better. Hopefully we don't have to use Payton much, but it's possible. Shamet will get better too as he gets used to the team and he can play more minutes as well.
How many teams really have 9 rotation worthy players and a bench better than the Cams, Shamet and McGee? Probably not many, if any. Payne should get better too..he almost has to given his play and come playoffs, we will almost always probably have Booker or Paul on the floor or if not, one of the other starters, most likely Bridges along with Payne, Shamet, Cam and McGee. Do we really have THAT big of a pressing need?
Thad would be a very nice get in the buyout market. I definitely don't think we will take on salary past this season like Craig...who isn't likely available anyway given Indy signing him along with TJ being out and the injury issues with Brogdon and LeVert...and Lamb.
If anything I would like to shore up our bench scoring and playmaking. It was apparent in the Golden State game as our bench was dominated by their bench. I think McGee and Cam Johnson are perfect from the bench. However, I'm really not satisfied with Payne, Shamet, or Payton as the guard rotation. All three are really underperforming. Maybe they will get it together soon. If not this is the area James Jones needs to address for the playoffs. I'd think hard about how to get Goran Dragic who is not playing for the Raps. He could be a huge microwave and playmaker for the second unit. Finals experience is a bonus.
bwgood77 wrote:I think we are probably fine with an 9 man rotation and Nader as an emergency wing if we need him. Even at 8 guys we could handle it. Nader has played poorly this season but on a small sample and last season shot almost 42% from 3. Then if Kaminsky comes back later he is a fine emergency big. I don't think too many teams play much more than an 8 man rotation in the playoffs. Obviously injuries could kill us but if we lose one of our main guys we will be hard pressed no matter what we do. We can't trade for one of these big names so that's pretty pointless.
I seriously doubt they will trade either Cam or Crowder. We are 19-4 and have missed Ayton and Booker for some games. I wouldn't worry too much about things, especially since we will likely be able to get someone in the buyout market. I don't imagine more than 1 guy, maybe 2, but we don't need much. These guys having to step up with injuries and play more minutes, like Cam and Kaminsky I think really helped give them confidence we can use going forward when they return. And we know Monty will use Nader, for better or worse, but he should get better. Hopefully we don't have to use Payton much, but it's possible. Shamet will get better too as he gets used to the team and he can play more minutes as well.
How many teams really have 9 rotation worthy players and a bench better than the Cams, Shamet and McGee? Probably not many, if any. Payne should get better too..he almost has to given his play and come playoffs, we will almost always probably have Booker or Paul on the floor or if not, one of the other starters, most likely Bridges along with Payne, Shamet, Cam and McGee. Do we really have THAT big of a pressing need?
Thad would be a very nice get in the buyout market. I definitely don't think we will take on salary past this season like Craig...who isn't likely available anyway given Indy signing him along with TJ being out and the injury issues with Brogdon and LeVert...and Lamb.
If anything I would like to shore up our bench scoring and playmaking. It was apparent in the Golden State game as our bench was dominated by their bench. I think McGee and Cam Johnson are perfect from the bench. However, I'm really not satisfied with Payne, Shamet, or Payton as the guard rotation. All three are really underperforming. Maybe they will get it together soon. If not this is the area James Jones needs to address for the playoffs. I'd think hard about how to get Goran Dragic who is not playing for the Raps. He could be a huge microwave and playmaker for the second unit. Finals experience is a bonus.
I echo your thoughts on all 3 of those guards this year, though even though I have expressed concern with Payne's play, I expect he will improve, and to get to last year's version is fine. Shamet needs to play a bit better. He is shooting fairly well and that may be his role but a little more consistency and playmaking seems like it should work, but at the beginning of the season or near the beginning, our bench was on fire and often they play well.
Payton I never liked the signing.
Monty loves Shamet obviously.
We could use more playmaking but I think as long as Book and Paul are on the floor the majority of the time, or one of them come playoffs, they will dominate that part anyway, and pretty much the roles of the rest are to finish or move the ball quickly.
We just had a ton of assists in the first GS game and when we moved the ball and move a lot it's fine. I think we have a lot of smart players who see and find the open guy....I think sometimes guys drive a little too often (thinking more of Shamet, CamJ and Payton) when they should move the ball because they drive into traffic.
I just don't see a real good way to make our team better with who we would likely trade (nobody really). We will have to survey the buyout or overseas market. Maybe we find another steal overseas like Payne? Who knows? Or a team with tons of guard depth may let someone go if they ask out.
I still don't know why people are THAT concerned though. Even with these guys issues so far, we are 19-4. I know we have faced a ton of depleted teams, but we are still fine for now and I think Payne steps it up a bit more. HIs shooting/scoring I think are a bigger problem, though his ast/to ratio went from like 3.6/1 to under 2/1 which is concerning even though I didn't expect him to maintain that, or his 44% 3pt % either.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said: "First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
bwgood77 wrote:This is the most changes I've ever seen people want to make on a team that is 19-4. Damn.
We just want to round out the edges and maximize our chances of winning it all. Plenty of options and needs for that. Not like we are seriously suggesting trading our starting 5-7. If injury comes, or foul trouble comes in the playoffs where Jrue is allowed to beat up Book and CP, while noone is allowed to breathe on Giannis without a shooting foul called we should have the personnel to win a game or two like that with a better and more balanced bench.
+1
I don't understand the insinuation that because we're an elite team now that we shouldn't look for opportunities to improve the roster. It isn't like we're suggesting a downgrade. Every move I've seen suggested on here has been to improve the roster and I see nothing wrong with that, even at 19-4
lilfishi22 wrote:More than ever....we are in the championship or bust endgame
How do you improve this roster via trade when we have marginal to stanky pieces to offer???? A late first, Nader, Smith, and injured Saric or even a multi discarded Shank, Elf...... that’s not going to get you much if anything. Perhaps a buy out player surfaces, but man, good minutes are already hard to come by.
I wouldn’t trade CamJo nor Crowder at this moment. Shamet and McGee are good additions. Payne is on a very good contract.
We can run/play with anyone as is. Should show some improvement with more play, more familiarity. I don’t see the need to over tweak what clearly has been working. It would be out of character for Jones to make any drastic moves, unless something was afoul.
Frank Lee wrote:How do you improve this roster via trade when we have marginal to stanky pieces to offer???? A late first, Nader, Smith, and injured Saric or even a multi discarded Shank, Elf...... that’s not going to get you much if anything. Perhaps a buy out player surfaces, but man, good minutes are already hard to come by.
I wouldn’t trade CamJo nor Crowder at this moment. Shamet and McGee are good additions. Payne is on a very good contract.
We can run/play with anyone as is. Should show some improvement with more play, more familiarity. I don’t see the need to over tweak what clearly has been working. It would be out of character for Jones to make any drastic moves, unless something was afoul.
If Toronto's option is to buy out Dragic and get nothing in return or accept a trade with a late first, it seems like they would choose the latter. For example, Saric, Smith, and Shamet plus a first-round pick for Dragic works. I'd think I would like a rotation of Dragic/Payne over Shamet/Payne. Both Payne and Dragic can attack the basket and facilitate. It's not in Shamet's wheelhouse as he is more of a spot-up three-ball specialist.
Of course this would be only if Shamet and Payne don't come around by the trade deadline. Organic growth is the best option but Payne is underperforming this year on offense.
Frank Lee wrote:How do you improve this roster via trade when we have marginal to stanky pieces to offer???? A late first, Nader, Smith, and injured Saric or even a multi discarded Shank, Elf...... that’s not going to get you much if anything. Perhaps a buy out player surfaces, but man, good minutes are already hard to come by.
I wouldn’t trade CamJo nor Crowder at this moment. Shamet and McGee are good additions. Payne is on a very good contract.
We can run/play with anyone as is. Should show some improvement with more play, more familiarity. I don’t see the need to over tweak what clearly has been working. It would be out of character for Jones to make any drastic moves, unless something was afoul.
If Toronto's option is to buy out Dragic and get nothing in return or accept a trade with a late first, it seems like they would choose the latter. For example, Saric, Smith, and Shamet plus a first-round pick for Dragic works. I'd think I would like a rotation of Dragic/Payne over Shamet/Payne. Both Payne and Dragic can attack the basket and facilitate. It's not in Shamet's wheelhouse as he is more of a spot-up three-ball specialist.
Of course this would be only if Shamet and Payne don't come around by the trade deadline. Organic growth is the best option but Payne is underperforming this year on offense.
I think that would be a huge overpaid for Dragic at this point of his career.
He just wants to play in Dallas with Doncic and Kokoskov. It is a done deal after being bought out, it a matter of time. He would ask to any other team to not trade for him.
Obviously the Raptors want something in return but Dragic hasn't played well enough this season to raise his already low trade value.
We should not be shy about trading multiple firsts and pick swaps for the right upgrade (i.e., a player that puts us over the top). The goal is win a championship and the window is now.
Bogyo wrote:We should be on all these. Buyout market with the rest of our MLE, Saric's DPE, Jalen/Hutch/Elfrid, and depending on the get, some of our future draft picks. There are a ton of teams who are plain bad, looking to tank, some looking to blow it up and tank, and some players just stuck in not a good situation for them. Indiana is set at PG, loaded on the wings, and looking to make moves. I don't think that any of Craig/Lamb/Holiday are untouchable, especially if they trade Turner. Or Sabonis for young group of talent like Wisemann, Moody, Kuminga. That's a reset where we could scoop in... If Portland blows it up trading Dame, do they really need Nance? Pelicans could have some guys who could be salvaged from that train wreck. Houston ditto. Detroit, why not? Thad from SA like up here? T. Ross from Orlando for Jalen and Hutch works in the trade machine, would they say no if we add a 2nd? Favors also works (while he is a bit lumbering to be anything else than a 5), but I'm sure he either gets bought out or traded for a second and filler at the deadline. That's just off the top of my head. Not saying any of these guys would be moved, but some of them are very likely. JJ get to work, get us the final puzzle, get us the title! You can be pretty sure that the Warriors brass is looking at everything with that warchest of the Wiggins contract, Wisemann, Moody, Kuminga+whatever pick they have. They could get a legit all star if they wanted and I'm pretty sure they will if opportunity knocks and Klay is back to his old self after his return (which is not a given, just saying). Imagine if they traded Wiggins and some of these youngsters for a Siakam or Sabonis... Even Turner would be nasty for them with his range and D.
I know that it's easily a point of debate to most, that the likelihood that we could've signed these players, is questionable, and it's only one game after all. But missing on scooping up Payton 2nd when he was originally cut by the wizards and choosing Elf instead, And then missing on adding Bjelica ( optimal Saric replacement) and Otto Porter in free agency is not a good look for us in hindsight currently. I mean who would you rather have currently?
Hutchinson and Nader or still have Craig and then could've added Gary Payton 2nd to be mentored by Paul whilst not signing Elfrid Payton! Also moving Payne to a 6th man role where he's best suited honestly! I do also agree that certain teams are going to be looking to offload salary once they determine their not going to seriously compete. Indiana will be ripe for the picking soon!
I'd love to swap out Nader/ Hutchinson for either Holiday or Craig.
I don't get the fascination with Gary Payton II.
"To be mentored by Paul"? Do you know how old is Gary Payton II? It is funny.
Our roster is great, we did nice moves this offseason but injuries happen so we now need to adjust and get a frontcourt player before the playoffs.
A couple of points here:
I don't get the fascination with Gary Payton II.
First, Payton the 2nd is only 29, obviously there's a big difference in wear and tear and career decline between 29 and 36 or 37 yrs of age. Also, look at some of the current nba greats at 29 yrs or older that still are impactful for their teams success.
Most notably you have Kwahi Leonard, CJ McCollum, Khris Middleton, Joe Harris, Terrence Ross. Then at age 30, You have Damian Lillard, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Kemba Walker, Jrue Holiday, John Wall, Nikola Vucevic. And at 31, You have James Harden, Jimmy Butler, DeMar DeRozan. And at 32, You have Durant, then Stephen Curry, Danilo Gallinari, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Love. At 33, You have Mike Conley, And at 34, Kyle Lowry.
Now IF Paul was to retire or just severely decline ( glad he's not), which of these guards highlighted would you honestly decline DUE TO AGE considering their current impacts for their teams? Now before you point out the obvious that Payton 2nd isn't on similar level to any of these star players, I completely understand and agree with that!! However, my point is in that he's still only 29, and there are many examples of guards around their early 30s' that still offer significant impact for their teams. Also were not talking about making a max contract investment here either. We're talking about upgrading our bench with a proven impactful player on a minimal salary. Look at his current impact for Golden state:
StatMuse (@statmuse) Tweeted: Gary Payton II last 3 games:
Entering play on Wednesday, Payton has played more than 10 minutes in five games. The Warriors are 5-0 in those games with an average margin of victory better than 20 points, with Payton averaging just under 11 points and better than two steals on 73-40-100 shooting splits.
The man affectionately known as “The Mitten” in reference to him being the son of “The Glove” has averaged 7.0 points, 3.3 rebounds, and 1.4 steals per game. Payton is making an absurd 68% of his shots including an insane 83% from inside the ard and 40% from 3-point range.
In 13 G League games last year, Payton averaged 10.8 points and 2.5 steals per game on his way to winning G League Defensive Player of the Year. That should’ve been a sign that he’s worthy of a spot in Toronto.
(@AaronBenRose) Tweeted: Raptors 905 guard Gary Payton II aka The Mitten was named G League Defensive Player of the Year
Again, were talking about swapping out Gary Payton 2nd ( 10 day contract player) for Elfrid Payton. Honestly, which guard would you rather have currently? That's the fascination (at least on my part) towards adding him to our bench as opposed to signing Elf!
"To be mentored by Paul"? Do you know how old is Gary Payton II? It is funny.
2nd, What is wrong with that exactly? If were looking to remain competitive for a few more seasons ( if Paul leaves or severely declines) since he's only 29 yrs old, and obviously still very athletic, fast, electric and possessing great impact for his team. Is a young rookie going to do that for us? Are we even looking at or even considering the draft currently? Which all star guard is a realistic option for us??? Obviously this doesn't have to be a longterm consideration even. Basically more of a stopgap solution whilst we identify that long term solution. Being mentored by Paul can only help advance his game even further. And it's not like he doesn't already mentor our bench guards in Payne and Elf. But if I personally had to choose between the current " Elf" OR Payton 2nd as our emergency " break glass" option, it's gonna be Payton 2nd and it's not really close. Lastly, it would give us a very solid defensive bench guard option alongside either Shamet or Payne. Allowing Payne to eventually transition to a much better suited 6th man role.
Our roster is great, we did nice moves this offseason but injuries happen so we now need to adjust and get a frontcourt player before the playoffs.
Last point: Again, we're talking about fringe upgrades here. Had we signed Payton 2nd in free agency, or traded for him, his salary is minimal. It would have / still would have no legitimate effect on us being able to either sign or trade for a much needed frontcourt player. I agree on still needing an upgrade in our frontcourt depth for our playoff run. But to my post, I just see Gary Payton 2nd as a big upgrade ( currently) over Elf, and ultimately the better Payton honestly. Especially for a minimum salary consideration. He obviously provided much better energy, defense and overall impact! I also would much rather have Torrey Craig (back) or Justin Holiday than Hutchinson ( who doesn't even really play).
Honestly man, who would you rather have coming off our bench to play alongside of Payne or Shamet ( once Book returns) ?
Elf Payton and Hutchinson ( who doesn't even play)
OR
Gary Payton 2nd and one of Torrey Craig/ Justin Holiday. It's definitely great to have players ( in case of injury). But I'd rather have players with proven significant impact than players that barely even play at all.
bwgood77 wrote:This is the most changes I've ever seen people want to make on a team that is 19-4. Damn.
We just want to round out the edges and maximize our chances of winning it all. Plenty of options and needs for that. Not like we are seriously suggesting trading our starting 5-7. If injury comes, or foul trouble comes in the playoffs where Jrue is allowed to beat up Book and CP, while noone is allowed to breathe on Giannis without a shooting foul called we should have the personnel to win a game or two like that with a better and more balanced bench.
+1
I don't understand the insinuation that because we're an elite team now that we shouldn't look for opportunities to improve the roster. It isn't like we're suggesting a downgrade. Every move I've seen suggested on here has been to improve the roster and I see nothing wrong with that, even at 19-4
Sure and I've said the buyout market makes sense but no key player on a 19-4 team is going to be traded, particularly knowing the dynamics of how this team was made up and the relationships between players and management. Now those relationships don't matter as much if the team isn't go and desperately needs to do something.
Jalen Smith is pretty much untradeable.
Any team that trades for him can't pay him as much as another team, so if he played really well, then they could lose him. Plus they can probably just sign him for dirt cheap in the offseason if they want him. And we are not taking salary past this season so a team won't trade for the cap relief.
I think people don't value continuity enough sometimes.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said: "First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
Blonde wrote:We should not be shy about trading multiple firsts and pick swaps for the right upgrade (i.e., a player that puts us over the top). The goal is win a championship and the window is now.
We are pretty much on top. We have to send out a lot of salary too if you are talking major addition. Pick swaps are not worth much if you are good. Picks in the future maybe if we might suck but if we got some star by trading Ayton and Bridges or Cam plus picks or something maybe we'd be good for awhile. Then again, maybe we'd be worse.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said: "First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
Brendon Kleen (@BrendonKleen14) Tweeted: Monty Williams says it’s hard for Ish Wainwright to develop “shot rhythm” because of how little he plays from stint to stint
And this is the problem with having players that hardly ever see minutes. They just can't develop a good rythym to their games during the season in order to have a measurable impact when they finally see minutes as a result of injuries, Covid, etc.
We need to be putting teams away much earlier not just so our starters can stay fresh. But more importantly to afford our full bench more quality developmental minutes. That way they can somewhat maintain an in game rythym to provide greater impact when their numbers get called!
Frank Lee wrote:How do you improve this roster via trade when we have marginal to stanky pieces to offer???? A late first, Nader, Smith, and injured Saric or even a multi discarded Shank, Elf...... that’s not going to get you much if anything. Perhaps a buy out player surfaces, but man, good minutes are already hard to come by.
I wouldn’t trade CamJo nor Crowder at this moment. Shamet and McGee are good additions. Payne is on a very good contract.
We can run/play with anyone as is. Should show some improvement with more play, more familiarity. I don’t see the need to over tweak what clearly has been working. It would be out of character for Jones to make any drastic moves, unless something was afoul.
There are always teams who are looking to blow it up, and will blow it up. That's were we need to come in and scoop up their "not needed for rebuilding" pieces that would be valuable to us. Those teams are usually willing to take a swing on a couple young guys and draft pick(s) for said pieces. Thad, Craig should be high on this list. Some other possibilities could be there too, like Nance. All 3 of these would help our bench unit in different ways, and could D up a bit on KD or Giannis if we get there or play small ball C against GSW. Are they a luxury to have? Sure. Could we win the whole thing without them? If everything falls right like last year but better - yes. Would they add to these chances? Abso-fng-lutely. So why not try? Are we afraid to lose Jalen/Nader/Elfrid/Hutchinson/ or any of our next 2-3 year picks that will not be top 20 anyways? We have a 2 year window - let's fng use it!
I read on GB that Tyreke Evans wants to make a comeback. I would like to see what he's capable of (only 32 years old), especially if we're missing Book or CP3
Saberestar wrote:Come on GOK...I don’t give a **** about Gary Payton II.
He has been terrible since forever and now he is playing OK 15 mpg for the GSW on about 20 games. Good for him.
That's cool man! To each their own as the saying goes. I just think he'd be a better option than Elf for an emergency ( fringe rotation option). I'm actually on board with any of Thad Young, Derrick Favors, or Tristan Thompson as potential buyout options. Also any legitimate low key fringe trade scenarios using Saric/ Smith/ Nader/ Hutchinson, etc. I got nothin' but respect for ya man.
Saberestar wrote:Come on GOK...I don’t give a **** about Gary Payton II.
He has been terrible since forever and now he is playing OK 15 mpg for the GSW on about 20 games. Good for him.
That's cool man! To each their own as the saying goes. I just think he'd be a better option than Elf for an emergency ( fringe rotation option). I'm actually on board with any of Thad Young, Derrick Favors, or Tristan Thompson as potential buyout options. Also any legitimate low key fringe trade scenarios using Saric/ Smith/ Nader/ Hutchinson, etc. I got nothin' but respect for ya man.
I would rather have Elf. Elf is a walking triple double any given night if given the minutes, and has proven such over his career. GP2, just isn't and hasn't. Plus, If GP2 got the same weird minutes as Elf is currently getting, I don't see how he would do a better job. He won't be allowed to foul here like he does in GS.
sasquatchBob wrote:I read on GB that Tyreke Evans wants to make a comeback. I would like to see what he's capable of (only 32 years old), especially if we're missing Book or CP3
I wouldn't mind that, with a waive of Ish or Chandler.
NapoleonII wrote:James Jones ain't trading Cam or Crowder, ever, until he's forced to.
And wtf would we do without Cam Payne? We'd wear out Booker or CP3 by the second round without him.
Maybe Saric because we've gone on this winning streak without him, and Saric doesn't really shore up our weaknesses against Golden State or the Bucks.
Let's pull back the day dreams, plz, at least until we're on a multiple game losing streak.
Trade Cam or Crowder? That would be **** stupid
Agreed.
Both of them fit this team like a glove, play hard, have bought into the system, and their shooting is essential to our offense.
I'm just tired of the dumb day dreamy stuff here, this was just the most blatant example. We're contending NOW, let's enjoy it, and hype up our guys, not try to Danny Ainge every malcontent potential trade target.
