Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
The Pistons didn't lose to the worst team in the league. The Pistons are the worst team in the league.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
It was easy to be excited about this team last year.... and the hype for having Cade and seeing the improvement from the 2nd year guys was real. But its just tough because we've played so far below expectations and players have been below expectations that its tough. I thought 30-32 wins and would be ok being slightly worse than that but no part of me though we'd be the clear absolute worst team in the league with our young guys having the struggles they have had.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
Yeah, this is a tough one.
I won't fully buy into the "we just lost to the team that dropped a game by 73" thing- they got 42 points from guys who weren't playing in that game, after all.
Still though, watching us fall apart in the second half was really painful. The defense was inexcusably bad down the stretch and the team shot in the mid-30s outside of Grant and Cade.
And yeah, the disappointment I feel from our group of sophomore players is palpable. Stewart doesn't look like anything more than a 15 mpg big off the bench most nights, Hayes looks mostly the same with only small flashes, and I'm pretty sure Bey is the worst second year player selected in round 1 thus far this season- he's been categorically awful on both ends of the floor, and I didn't see THAT coming heading into the year even with relatively pessimistic expectations. I don't know how we move forward from here.
Still pretty bummed out. But hey, at least Cade's shot is starting to fall again.
I won't fully buy into the "we just lost to the team that dropped a game by 73" thing- they got 42 points from guys who weren't playing in that game, after all.
Still though, watching us fall apart in the second half was really painful. The defense was inexcusably bad down the stretch and the team shot in the mid-30s outside of Grant and Cade.
And yeah, the disappointment I feel from our group of sophomore players is palpable. Stewart doesn't look like anything more than a 15 mpg big off the bench most nights, Hayes looks mostly the same with only small flashes, and I'm pretty sure Bey is the worst second year player selected in round 1 thus far this season- he's been categorically awful on both ends of the floor, and I didn't see THAT coming heading into the year even with relatively pessimistic expectations. I don't know how we move forward from here.
Still pretty bummed out. But hey, at least Cade's shot is starting to fall again.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
So to be clear:
Some of y'all had unrealistic expectations heading into this season thinking that a bunch of sophomore + Hayes completing his real rookie season + Cade starting his NBA career would somehow equal 30 wins.
Those expectations are why you're disappointed?
I stated all off-season and pre-season that we'd be absolutely one of the bottom 5 teams in the league yet few listened...
And not to gloat but I've been right since Weaver was hired and copped all kinds of BS the whole time.
It's not good to be right but I did see it coming and the way this is going next season is not looking any better but I'll wait a while on calling it
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Some of y'all had unrealistic expectations heading into this season thinking that a bunch of sophomore + Hayes completing his real rookie season + Cade starting his NBA career would somehow equal 30 wins.
Those expectations are why you're disappointed?
I stated all off-season and pre-season that we'd be absolutely one of the bottom 5 teams in the league yet few listened...
And not to gloat but I've been right since Weaver was hired and copped all kinds of BS the whole time.
It's not good to be right but I did see it coming and the way this is going next season is not looking any better but I'll wait a while on calling it
Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
Pharaoh wrote:So to be clear:
Some of y'all had unrealistic expectations heading into this season thinking that a bunch of sophomore + Hayes completing his real rookie season + Cade starting his NBA career would somehow equal 30 wins.
Those expectations are why you're disappointed?
I stated all off-season and pre-season that we'd be absolutely one of the bottom 5 teams in the league yet few listened...
And not to gloat but I've been right since Weaver was hired and copped all kinds of BS the whole time.
It's not good to be right but I did see it coming and the way this is going next season is not looking any better but I'll wait a while on calling it
Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app
We're on a 14 win pace (yes, check the math if you don't believe me). We're underperforming even very modest expectations like, say, a similar % to what we had last year.
Truthfully, I figured we'd be pretty bad- in the mix for bottom five. I didn't think we'd be quite this bad (we are currently the clear-cut worst team in the league) and I certainly didn't think our sophomores would look like they don't belong in the NBA. I don't think people are bewailing the wins so much as how bad specific guys are looking. Bey doesn't have good games anymore.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
Snakebites wrote:Pharaoh wrote:So to be clear:
Some of y'all had unrealistic expectations heading into this season thinking that a bunch of sophomore + Hayes completing his real rookie season + Cade starting his NBA career would somehow equal 30 wins.
Those expectations are why you're disappointed?
I stated all off-season and pre-season that we'd be absolutely one of the bottom 5 teams in the league yet few listened...
And not to gloat but I've been right since Weaver was hired and copped all kinds of BS the whole time.
It's not good to be right but I did see it coming and the way this is going next season is not looking any better but I'll wait a while on calling it
Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app
We're on a 14 win pace (yes, check the math if you don't believe me). We're underperforming even very modest expectations like, say, a similar % to what we had last year.
Truthfully, I figured we'd be pretty bad- in the mix for bottom five. I didn't think we'd be quite this bad (we are currently the clear-cut worst team in the league) and I certainly didn't think our sophomores would look like they don't belong in the NBA. I don't think people are bewailing the wins so much as how bad specific guys are looking. Bey doesn't have good games anymore.
And last year we started benching a bunch of players and turned on the tank to hit that pace. And last year we started off the season really playing hard and competing each night. It was easy to feel good about the loses. This year, most nights, it doesn't feel good to watch the team perform the way they have. Whether its horrible offense, TOs, lack of defensive effort in spurts, or young guys not meeting expectations this year has been much worse than last.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
I will say this:
It's quite clear Bey is attempting to expand his offensive arsenal as opposed to simply being a 3 point shooter.
It's clear Stewart is overmatched as a starting C - lacks the leaping ability as a rim runner.
It's clear Cade & Hayes have good chemistry and show flashes.
Patience is required if you actually want to build a team, as opposed to racing back on to the treadmills of mediocrity.
If anyone actually believed Weaver came here to execute anything less than his own vision then you were wrong.
No matter what we're in for the long haul.
We got probably this season and next to suffer then things change.
But WTF do I know
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It's quite clear Bey is attempting to expand his offensive arsenal as opposed to simply being a 3 point shooter.
It's clear Stewart is overmatched as a starting C - lacks the leaping ability as a rim runner.
It's clear Cade & Hayes have good chemistry and show flashes.
Patience is required if you actually want to build a team, as opposed to racing back on to the treadmills of mediocrity.
If anyone actually believed Weaver came here to execute anything less than his own vision then you were wrong.
No matter what we're in for the long haul.
We got probably this season and next to suffer then things change.
But WTF do I know

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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
Pistons led by 9 after the first quarter, by 13 at the half, by 9 after the 3rd, and by 6 with five minutes left in the game.
Then, they proceeded to lose the last 4.5 minutes of the game by a score of 23-6.
(to a bad team, mind you)
The team is not very good to begin with, but this is a coaching problem. Casey has to go. No way can he be brought back next season.
Then, they proceeded to lose the last 4.5 minutes of the game by a score of 23-6.
(to a bad team, mind you)
The team is not very good to begin with, but this is a coaching problem. Casey has to go. No way can he be brought back next season.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
Pharaoh wrote:So to be clear:
Some of y'all had unrealistic expectations heading into this season thinking that a bunch of sophomore + Hayes completing his real rookie season + Cade starting his NBA career would somehow equal 30 wins.
Those expectations are why you're disappointed?
I stated all off-season and pre-season that we'd be absolutely one of the bottom 5 teams in the league yet few listened...
And not to gloat but I've been right since Weaver was hired and copped all kinds of BS the whole time.
It's not good to be right but I did see it coming and the way this is going next season is not looking any better but I'll wait a while on calling it
Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app
I don't think 30+ wins was unrealistic at all given the caveats that were put with it which, in my case, were that the second year players made reasonably expected improvements while Cade had a year like one would expect from a #1 pick. Cade is certainly rounding into form in that regard. Yes, he makes too many stupid passes that result in turnovers and has defensive lapses...because he's a rookie. As far as the the second year players it appears that other than Hayes who has made minor improvement, they've all regressed. And don't overlook the loss of Olynyk who on most nights provided the bench scoring punch.
That all being said, I don't care about the losses. Unless every young player on the team blasted off with marked improvement this team wasn't sniffing the playoffs. It's a rebuilding year and I'd rather see another high draft pick. I don't even care much about Casey's rotations or play calls as long as the young guys are getting minutes. Yes, I'll bitch during games but at players for doing stupid stuff, or about Lyles because all he does is stupid stuff. I don't even care that Casey uses Lyles as much as he does in principle, i.e. whether or not it helps win games. I'd rather see Garza get the minutes and struggle as a rookie who plays hard than Lyles who's just painful to watch, period. Who knows--maybe Weaver and Casey are pulling off another tank year. In any case, firing Casey makes no sense UNTIL the team is at a point where you have the established core you want moving forward. THEN you try to get the right coach for the team you've put together if you think you don't have him/her already. And don't give me any of that "Casey needs to go now because he's hurting X's development" stuff. Throughout the history of all sports there have been young players with high expectations who struggled, got a new coach/went to a new team and flourished. Point being their talents/abilities didn't get lost forever because they weren't being utilized in a way that maximized their talents/abilities.
Yes, it's painful to watch. Would we all prefer a stealthy tank where the coach/team has the ability to lose by 1-3 points every night while being competitive, and winning just enough games to stay at the bottom but help keep morale up? Sure. But in the end it's a loss either way. Do I think Casey is the right coach in the long term? No, I'm not confident that he is. But maybe he's a great coach for the tank and maybe that's what his intention is. And I'm ok with the painful viewing if that's the outcome.

Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
I feel like that first quarter really showed what the starting five is capable of offensively when we're clicking. We just need to work on consistency and finishing.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
Kalamazoo317 wrote:I feel like that first quarter really showed what the starting five is capable of offensively when we're clicking. We just need to work on consistency and finishing.
Like I always say, a team that wins 20-some games because it has young, inexperienced and inconsistent players is NOT the same thing as a 20-something team of has beens/never will be's like the Pistons teams of the past. Yet we have people here treating the two situations like they're exactly the same--keep Cade, scrap everybody else, the coach, etc., etc. when the answer is simply "Be patient." This team HAS the capability. As you said they're just lacking consistency...like most young players/teams do. People seem to forget that aside from the regressions guys like Bey, Frank and others have shown--which can right themselves--this team as currently assembled has played 23 games together. TWENTY-THREE GAMES. Give it a minute.

Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
jakebernat wrote:[streamable][/streamable]vege wrote:This team is a joke. Embarrassing is the only word I can think of. Other than Grant and Cade, no one in this roster belongs to an NBA roster. I have absolutely no idea how Weaver still have a job after everything he did.
there he is.
Yeah, I still chuckle at the one right after another vege and Rip32 posts. No sign of either, suddenly they're both around and posting within the same minute, then they're both gone again.

Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
Pharaoh wrote:So to be clear:
Some of y'all had unrealistic expectations heading into this season thinking that a bunch of sophomore + Hayes completing his real rookie season + Cade starting his NBA career would somehow equal 30 wins.
Those expectations are why you're disappointed?
I stated all off-season and pre-season that we'd be absolutely one of the bottom 5 teams in the league yet few listened...
And not to gloat but I've been right since Weaver was hired and copped all kinds of BS the whole time.
It's not good to be right but I did see it coming and the way this is going next season is not looking any better but I'll wait a while on calling it
Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app
I share this same sentiment in a general sense but it should never be deemed acceptable to blow a 15 point lead and give up 15 straight makes in the 4th (15!!!!) to one of the worst teams in the league or any team for that matter. That game was an embarrassment to the highest degree and I put at least some of that blame on the coach for not making any adjustments when the Thunder were driving the ball to the paint at will. no lineup changes, no defensive adjustments, just hope and pray that they miss shots eventually. Not good enough, not even in a development year.
Also, I know that this season won't be measured by wins/losses but eventually this season they're going to have to learn how to win some of these games, otherwise the season is a complete waste. They need to show flashes of being able to come up big in clutch moments or at least not completely fold like they've done frequently and what I see is a team that continuously flounders when the intensity gets ramped up in 4th quarters. They need to show some progress on this front and all I see is regression thus far. It's a troublesome trend.
I haven't been bothered by any of the losses this season but this one really got me.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
NYPiston wrote:Pharaoh wrote:So to be clear:
Some of y'all had unrealistic expectations heading into this season thinking that a bunch of sophomore + Hayes completing his real rookie season + Cade starting his NBA career would somehow equal 30 wins.
Those expectations are why you're disappointed?
I stated all off-season and pre-season that we'd be absolutely one of the bottom 5 teams in the league yet few listened...
And not to gloat but I've been right since Weaver was hired and copped all kinds of BS the whole time.
It's not good to be right but I did see it coming and the way this is going next season is not looking any better but I'll wait a while on calling it
Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app
I share this same sentiment in a general sense but it should never be deemed acceptable to blow a 15 point lead and give up 15 straight makes in the 4th (15!!!!) to one of the worst teams in the league or any team for that matter. That game was an embarrassment to the highest degree and I put at least some of that blame on the coach for not making any adjustments when the Thunder were driving the ball to the paint at will. no lineup changes, no defensive adjustments, just hope and pray that they miss shots eventually. Not good enough, not even in a development year.
Also, I know that this season won't be measured by wins/losses but eventually this season they're going to have to learn how to win some of these games, otherwise the season is a complete waste. They need to show flashes of being able to come up big in clutch moments or at least not completely fold like they've done frequently and what I see is a team that continuously flounders when the intensity gets ramped up in 4th quarters. They need to show some progress on this front and all I see is regression thus far. It's a troublesome trend.
I haven't been bothered by any of the losses this season but this one really got me.
Given where this team is at there's no such thing as a wasted season; it's still experience for the young players and there are still 59 games left. The expectation, at least for the vast majority of us, was not that they would make the playoffs. And less than that is just different degrees of not making the playoffs.
A wasted season would be something like giving up your future high draft picks in an off-season trade for a one-year rental max/near max player who will put you over the top and finally get the team in the championship hunt...and he blows his knee out in pre-season.

Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
Manocad wrote:
Given where this team is at there's no such thing as a wasted season; it's still experience for the young players and there are still 59 games left. The expectation, at least for the vast majority of us, was not that they would make the playoffs. And less than that is just different degrees of not making the playoffs.
A wasted season would be something like giving up your future high draft picks in an off-season trade for a one-year rental max/near max player who will put you over the top and finally get the team in the championship hunt...and he blows his knee out in pre-season.
In a development season, you need to see development, progression. It's still early but this team doesn't seem to be progressing, it's the same meltdown in the 4th quarter time and time again and you can understand that against the Lakers and Heat but against the Thunder, it's an alarming sign.
The bottom line is we need to see some incremental improvements in order for this season to mean something. Tanking for high draft picks with a stagnated roster is a waste, yes. Yes, you're adding another high caliber prospect is helpful but the guys that are here, the core, need to show progress as a group and where we stand today is a 4-18 team that just got embarrassed by the 6 win Thunder at home. That's just not acceptable.
FTR, I've been one of the proponents of being patient and keeping expectations low for this season but that loss to the Thunder was disconcerting.
Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
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Re: Game 23: Thunder (6-16) @ Pistons (4-18) - Dec. 6 7:00 PM EST
NYPiston wrote:Manocad wrote:
Given where this team is at there's no such thing as a wasted season; it's still experience for the young players and there are still 59 games left. The expectation, at least for the vast majority of us, was not that they would make the playoffs. And less than that is just different degrees of not making the playoffs.
A wasted season would be something like giving up your future high draft picks in an off-season trade for a one-year rental max/near max player who will put you over the top and finally get the team in the championship hunt...and he blows his knee out in pre-season.
In a development season, you need to see development, progression. It's still early but this team doesn't seem to be progressing, it's the same meltdown in the 4th quarter time and time again and you can understand that against the Lakers and Heat but against the Thunder, it's an alarming sign.
The bottom line is we need to see some incremental improvements in order for this season to mean something. Tanking for high draft picks with a stagnated roster is a waste, yes. Yes, you're adding another high caliber prospect is helpful but the guys that are here, the core, need to show progress as a group and where we stand today is a 4-18 team that just got embarrassed by the 6 win Thunder at home. That's just not acceptable.
FTR, I've been one of the proponents of being patient and keeping expectations low for this season but that loss to the Thunder was disconcerting.
There are 59 games remaining. This core has played 23 games together. "Alarming" and "acceptable" are not only subjective terms in principle but especially subjective when considering the standpoint of a fan vs the organization. And I'd still challenge the idea that if an "acceptable" level of progression didn't take place it's a wasted season because it doesn't change the outcome. You can't put an established timeline on every player's or team's development, especially considering it's a given that this team doesn't have all the pieces in place yet. Once all the pieces are in place and the team is still showing a lack of progression or even regression throughout an entire season, THEN it's a wasted season.
Sure, it sucks watching it. But having an "alarming" level of concern at this point sounds a lot more to me like "I just don't like watching it" vs "this team is going in the wrong direction and changes need to be made or they're going to blow their future."
