Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[Klomp]

To me our biggest issue is that Beasley and Prince have nuked their trade value.

Have they? Now hear me out....

Wolves fans have been sky high about the value those two could get back in a trade. And opposing teams were pretty dubious about it. Now I wonder if we're simply seeing what these teams saw all along. Inconsistent bench role players who are unable to create for themselves. Our opinion of their values has changed, but it's the opposing teams' values that we need to be concerned about.

[winforlose]

To me our biggest issue is that Beasley and Prince have nuked their trade value.

Have they? Now hear me out....

Wolves fans have been sky high about the value those two could get back in a trade. And opposing teams were pretty dubious about it. Now I wonder if we're simply seeing what these teams saw all along. Inconsistent bench role players who are unable to create for themselves. Our opinion of their values has changed, but it's the opposing teams' values that we need to be concerned about.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. With Beasley before the whole legal mess and late season injury he was having a good year. Plenty of teams value sharp shooting, and while the price tag might be a bit steep, he has a team option for the final year. This years Beasley is below league average on volume 3 point shooting, isn’t particularly effective in any other aspect of the game, and has no claim to the leadership and aggressive attitude he had last year after the personal drama and legal crap. Basically, we are selling Beasley on faith he will bounce back.


Prince is a different kind of implosion. Unlike Beasley who melted down off the court before melting down on the court, Prince has just fallen off a cliff on the court. He is 16/58 from 3, averaging 4.2 PPG and less than half a steal and .2 blocks per game. He is down all across the board from last year. I doubt anyone wants him for more than expiring salary. Worse still his reputation for great defense has gone out the window. Ironically I blame this on the rest of a previously bad defensive team all playing better this year so Prince gets lost in the shuffle.

[TheProdigy]

To me our biggest issue is that Beasley and Prince have nuked their trade value.

Have they? Now hear me out....

Wolves fans have been sky high about the value those two could get back in a trade. And opposing teams were pretty dubious about it. Now I wonder if we're simply seeing what these teams saw all along. Inconsistent bench role players who are unable to create for themselves. Our opinion of their values has changed, but it's the opposing teams' values that we need to be concerned about.

This is probably correct. Fans were comparing Prince to prime Covington in the offseason, which shows how over inflated some perceived his value to be.

In regards to Beasley, he's not your typical microwave scorer off the bench because he struggles to create his own shot. This is why throughout his career, he performs better in a starting role with other players that command double teams and/or can break down a defense and create open looks for him. Savvy GMs and scouts already know this, so he probably hasn't hurt his value much in their eyes. We aren't putting him in a situation to maximize his performance by having him lead the bench unit. Trading away Rubio also didn't help Beasley since he was one of the few guys who could create open looks last year.

[Note30]

Theis, Gordon, Tate
For
Beasley+ Prince + Okogie + 3nds + 1 top 8 prot FRP (2024)

DLo + Vando + 1 UFRP 2022 + 2 2nds for Poetl + Murray

Murray/Edwards/Tate/Towns/Poetl
Bev/ Gordon / McDaniels/Reid /Theis
Bolmaro

Vando is evolving into one of the more valuable defenders in the league. Add to that his offensive rebounding (decent defensive rebounder but elite offensive rebounder,) improved hands, (dropping less passes,) improved free throw shooting, and improved shooting at the rim, and you have a high value young player. Teams offer us firsts for him, not the other way around.

This specifically is the jump he's made this season?

Because in FA he was so valuable nobody but us offered him a contract. So unless the development he's made in 20 games makes him that valuable I think that's a value nobody else will give him.

Murray and Poetl are both amazing defenders and rebounders. They are also young. Poetl is arguably one of the best rim protectors in the league. He doesn't even have to play extended minutes with Towns to be super effective. Murray is a consistent PG. He may not be an amazing 3pt shooter but he shoots decently for a PG and drives and attacks hard. Our dribble drive attacks are all dependent on Ant and isn't easy for him to dish when driving. DLo is horrible at running the pick and roll. They are arguably the Spurs best chips.

Theis is a decent rebounding stretch big that gives us just that at what were missing. He's not more than average on defense. Tate is the player to watch for and has exactly to he attitude this team needs. Intensity and defensive grit. Gordon is a better player than Beas.

We're adding starters from weaker teams and arguably their best players and we aren't willing to trade a guy who didn't get any other offers but ours?

Tell me how this is horrible?

[winforlose]

To me our biggest issue is that Beasley and Prince have nuked their trade value.

Have they? Now hear me out....

Wolves fans have been sky high about the value those two could get back in a trade. And opposing teams were pretty dubious about it. Now I wonder if we're simply seeing what these teams saw all along. Inconsistent bench role players who are unable to create for themselves. Our opinion of their values has changed, but it's the opposing teams' values that we need to be concerned about.

This is probably correct. Fans were comparing Prince to prime Covington in the offseason, which shows how over inflated some perceived his value to be.

In regards to Beasley, he's not your typical microwave scorer off the bench because he struggles to create his own shot. This is why throughout his career, he performs better in a starting role with other players that command double teams and/or can break down a defense and create open looks for him. Savvy GMs and scouts already know this, so he probably hasn't hurt his value much in their eyes. We aren't putting him in a situation to maximize his performance by having him lead the bench unit. Trading away Rubio also didn't help Beasley since he was one of the guys who could create open looks last year.

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree with both of these assessments. I don’t know who was comparing to Prince to Roco, but if people were they were nuts. Roco is an elite defender and solid offensive player, Prince was a bargain 3 and D backup we got for Rubio. Just on the starter vs backup player comparison there is a huge value difference. Prince was never worth a first, but at his peak with an expiring contract and being a valuable 3 and D he might get you a role player or be part of a bigger trade package for a solid starting player (assuming Beasley, and some draft capital was involved.)

Beasley, did start some games for us and even when coming off the bench he played a lot with KAT, or Dlo, or both. Beasley has had a ton of open catch and shoot 3s including some game losers last Friday. His issue is that he is shooting at a very poor clip and not finishing well at the rim or pulling up in the paint. Beasley is by and large the same player as last year just with a lower shooting percentage.

[TheProdigy]

Have they? Now hear me out....

Wolves fans have been sky high about the value those two could get back in a trade. And opposing teams were pretty dubious about it. Now I wonder if we're simply seeing what these teams saw all along. Inconsistent bench role players who are unable to create for themselves. Our opinion of their values has changed, but it's the opposing teams' values that we need to be concerned about.

This is probably correct. Fans were comparing Prince to prime Covington in the offseason, which shows how over inflated some perceived his value to be.

In regards to Beasley, he's not your typical microwave scorer off the bench because he struggles to create his own shot. This is why throughout his career, he performs better in a starting role with other players that command double teams and/or can break down a defense and create open looks for him. Savvy GMs and scouts already know this, so he probably hasn't hurt his value much in their eyes. We aren't putting him in a situation to maximize his performance by having him lead the bench unit. Trading away Rubio also didn't help Beasley since he was one of the guys who could create open looks last year.

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree with both of these assessments. I don’t know who was comparing to Prince to Roco, but if people were they were nuts. Roco is an elite defender and solid offensive player, Prince was a bargain 3 and D backup we got for Rubio. Just on the starter vs backup player comparison there is a huge value difference. Prince was never worth a first, but at his peak with an expiring contract and being a valuable 3 and D he might get you a role player or be part of a bigger trade package for a solid starting player (assuming Beasley, and some draft capital was involved.)

Beasley, did start some games for us and even when coming off the bench he played a lot with KAT, or Dlo, or both. Beasley has had a ton of open catch and shoot 3s including some game losers last Friday. His issue is that he is shooting at a very poor clip and not finishing well at the rim or pulling up in the paint. Beasley is by and large the same player as last year just with a lower shooting percentage.

I remember someone on here definitely compared him to RoCo after the offseason trade, not making that up. Also, the fact that you refer to Taurean Prince as a "3&D" tells me that you are overrating him. In order to be considered 3&D, you need to be a good defender, which Prince is not. At best he's an average defender but that's being generous.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that Beasley is getting as many clean step-into-it 3s as he has in the past. It seems like a lot of his shots involve pump fakes that make the defender jump past him to create space. If someone has access to data that shows average space between him and closest defender, that would be interesting to see. The other thing to remember with Beasley is that his offensive game is almost entirely predicated on shooting (kind of like DLo). Shooters are streaky with good streaks and bad streaks. Their shooting percentages will be less consistent than guys who can attack the rim. We need to hope that Beasley is just going through a slump and will snap out of it.

[Slim Tubby]

DP

Please keep your sex life to yourself, shrink.

[winforlose]

This is probably correct. Fans were comparing Prince to prime Covington in the offseason, which shows how over inflated some perceived his value to be.

In regards to Beasley, he's not your typical microwave scorer off the bench because he struggles to create his own shot. This is why throughout his career, he performs better in a starting role with other players that command double teams and/or can break down a defense and create open looks for him. Savvy GMs and scouts already know this, so he probably hasn't hurt his value much in their eyes. We aren't putting him in a situation to maximize his performance by having him lead the bench unit. Trading away Rubio also didn't help Beasley since he was one of the guys who could create open looks last year.

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree with both of these assessments. I don’t know who was comparing to Prince to Roco, but if people were they were nuts. Roco is an elite defender and solid offensive player, Prince was a bargain 3 and D backup we got for Rubio. Just on the starter vs backup player comparison there is a huge value difference. Prince was never worth a first, but at his peak with an expiring contract and being a valuable 3 and D he might get you a role player or be part of a bigger trade package for a solid starting player (assuming Beasley, and some draft capital was involved.)

Beasley, did start some games for us and even when coming off the bench he played a lot with KAT, or Dlo, or both. Beasley has had a ton of open catch and shoot 3s including some game losers last Friday. His issue is that he is shooting at a very poor clip and not finishing well at the rim or pulling up in the paint. Beasley is by and large the same player as last year just with a lower shooting percentage.

I remember someone on here definitely compared him to RoCo after the offseason trade, not making that up. Also, the fact that you refer to Taurean Prince as a "3&D" tells me that you are overrating him. In order to be considered 3&D, you need to be a good defender, which Prince is not. At best he's an average defender but that's being generous.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that Beasley is getting as many clean step-into-it 3s as he has in the past. It seems like a lot of his shots involve pump fakes that make the defender jump past him to create space. If someone has access to data that shows average space between him and closest defender, that would be interesting to see. The other thing to remember with Beasley is that his offensive game is almost entirely predicated on shooting (kind of like DLo). Shooters are streaky with good streaks and bad streaks. Their shooting percentages will be less consistent than guys who can attack the rim. We need to hope that Beasley is just going through a slump and will snap out of it.

Key words 3andD backup. Prince shot 40% from 3 last year. He was supposed to be a good defender, turns out he isn’t this year, go figure.

[TheProdigy]

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree with both of these assessments. I don’t know who was comparing to Prince to Roco, but if people were they were nuts. Roco is an elite defender and solid offensive player, Prince was a bargain 3 and D backup we got for Rubio. Just on the starter vs backup player comparison there is a huge value difference. Prince was never worth a first, but at his peak with an expiring contract and being a valuable 3 and D he might get you a role player or be part of a bigger trade package for a solid starting player (assuming Beasley, and some draft capital was involved.)

Beasley, did start some games for us and even when coming off the bench he played a lot with KAT, or Dlo, or both. Beasley has had a ton of open catch and shoot 3s including some game losers last Friday. His issue is that he is shooting at a very poor clip and not finishing well at the rim or pulling up in the paint. Beasley is by and large the same player as last year just with a lower shooting percentage.

I remember someone on here definitely compared him to RoCo after the offseason trade, not making that up. Also, the fact that you refer to Taurean Prince as a "3&D" tells me that you are overrating him. In order to be considered 3&D, you need to be a good defender, which Prince is not. At best he's an average defender but that's being generous.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that Beasley is getting as many clean step-into-it 3s as he has in the past. It seems like a lot of his shots involve pump fakes that make the defender jump past him to create space. If someone has access to data that shows average space between him and closest defender, that would be interesting to see. The other thing to remember with Beasley is that his offensive game is almost entirely predicated on shooting (kind of like DLo). Shooters are streaky with good streaks and bad streaks. Their shooting percentages will be less consistent than guys who can attack the rim. We need to hope that Beasley is just going through a slump and will snap out of it.

Key words 3andD backup. Prince shot 40% from 3 last year. He was supposed to be a good defender, turns out he isn’t this year, go figure.

That's the thing, no one should have expected him to be a good defender. Over his entire NBA career prior to this season, his DRPM has averaged -1.19 (negative) and DRaptor has averaged -0.38 (negative). The narrative on this board that Taurean Prince is a good defender is wrong.

[shangrila]

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that Beasley is getting as many clean step-into-it 3s as he has in the past. It seems like a lot of his shots involve pump fakes that make the defender jump past him to create space. If someone has access to data that shows average space between him and closest defender, that would be interesting to see. The other thing to remember with Beasley is that his offensive game is almost entirely predicated on shooting (kind of like DLo). Shooters are streaky with good streaks and bad streaks. Their shooting percentages will be less consistent than guys who can attack the rim. We need to hope that Beasley is just going through a slump and will snap out of it.

He's actually very similar in both Open (nearest defender within 4-6ft) and Wide Open (nearest 6+ft) shots, according to NBA.com for last year and this. You have to look at the attempts BTW, not the frequency %s, to do the comparison.

The main difference is just his actual shooting percentages being way down. 39% and 52% from last year from those 2 categories vs 33% and 42% from this year. He's even taking significantly more shots with 0 dribbles (i.e. spot ups) this season (50.7% last season, 64.2% this season).

I think he's just in a funk. A number of shooters seem to have been affected this season and whether that's the new ball they're using, the new foul rules (or, really, that they're just not calling fouls anymore), COVID, his own off court issues or any combination of them, who could know?

[shangrila]

Saw this in the wiretap:

The Timberwolves are also looking at the trade market, in attempt to buoy a playoff push. One player Minnesota appears to have interest in is Myles Turner of the Indiana Pacers.

Three awesome things in that link:
1. They want to extend Beverley, which is great. Don't go nuts on the dollars but keep him around for sure.

2. They want to make moves and seemingly aren't going to hold out for the ridiculously slim chance that they can somehow acquire Simmons.

3. I like Myles Turner and would be ecstatic to add him to the team. I'd actually prefer him to someone like Wood at this point.

[Note30]

Saw this in the wiretap:

The Timberwolves are also looking at the trade market, in attempt to buoy a playoff push. One player Minnesota appears to have interest in is Myles Turner of the Indiana Pacers.

Three awesome things in that link:
1. They want to extend Beverley, which is great. Don't go nuts on the dollars but keep him around for sure.

2. They want to make moves and seemingly aren't going to hold out for the ridiculously slim chance that they can somehow acquire Simmons.

3. I like Myles Turner and would be ecstatic to add him to the team. I'd actually prefer him to someone like Wood at this point.

If we get Turner and extrend Bev that would be awesome

[karch34]

I wonder if some of the PatBev extension talks (besides we should definitely keep him) is to get those costs locked in and know how much room a you'd have after a Turner trade because it's likely Prince is the big contract going out which also cuts into projected space next year.

[moss_is_1]

I wonder if some of the PatBev extension talks (besides we should definitely keep him) is to get those costs locked in and know how much room a you'd have after a Turner trade because it's likely Prince is the big contract going out which also cuts into projected space next year.

Could be Beasley as well.

[Calinks]

ESPN put together a possible trade for Larry Nance Jr. Think it was a lottery-protected first and Josh Okogie, I think that's a pretty good low key move if we could do it. Nance brings a lot of thing we need to the table. I'd be looking at a big like that, I like Nance cause he wont cost a lot, I think we have some nice pieces that could fit well do I don't want to give up huge assets but we may have to to get the kind of big I think we need.

[Neeva]

If the wolves give up a frp I don’t think Nance should be the target. He does not move the needle much at all.

[moss_is_1]

ESPN put together a possible trade for Larry Nance Jr. Think it was a lottery-protected first and Josh Okogie, I think that's a pretty good low key move if we could do it. Nance brings a lot of thing we need to the table. I'd be looking at a big like that, I like Nance cause he wont cost a lot, I think we have some nice pieces that could fit well do I don't want to give up huge assets but we may have to to get the kind of big I think we need.

We'd have to send out Prince to make salary work. We could probably so Okogie and Layman, but it would push us over the tax. Don't see us giving a pick and going into the tax for Nance.

[moss_is_1]

Indy fans seem fine trading Levert for expirings. I'd be real interested if we are shipping Beasley out for a big in replacing him with Levert. He can create his shot more.

[Klomp]

The only real Indy piece I'm focused on is Turner.

[life_saver]

Please...no for Levert...he is currently in his 6th or 7th season but is still an inefficient shooter...we already have enough of them here