Options to fix the PF hole

[coldfish]

I don't think the real Bulls would be interested in Sabonis or Turner. They want a big SF for the PF slot, not a small C. That's why Boucher isn't an option either. I like the option of Isaac but I suspect he wouldn't be considered either.

[Senor Chang]

I don't watch a lot of Indiana basketball so I don't know the intricacies, but if Turner can't make it work with Sabonis - who seems kind of a similar player to Vooch - why would he be a good fit here?

Turner and Sabonis are their best players. In Chicago we'd have Vuc, Lavine, and Derozen already on the team. If you already are a top 2 team in the conference it couldn't hurt to add another legit bitman to the lineup. He'd just bump Tony Bradley out of the rotation and maybe push Green to his natural position.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[KevinPandawong]

I'm not CBA savvy but if we're indulging pipe dreams, can we sign Mirotic to the Theis TPE? There was the news he was unhappy with Barca cutting his salary by 70%. The Portland pick dropping in value gives me little hope the Bulls will be able to move the needle via trade.

Selling low on Coby and Pat for a role-player just seems misguided, I don't even have high expectations for either of them but winning teams usually inflates players' stock. Wiseman has barely played due to injury and produced middling results when he did play, yet he's still there in every trade thread for disgruntled stars.

[FreeThrowLine]

Myles Turner is the guy you all think is the perfect fit from those Pacers names? I find him very underwhelming. Now Sabonis I could understand, would you consider White and Williams + filler?

Both are centers - neither works. Sabonis would work as a Vuc *replacement* 2 years down the line. Heck, Turner would work, too, but then you'd need to get a more offensively oriented comb-forward 4 in the starting lineup (a la a Harrison Barnes or TJ Warren or Tobias Harris, etc., etc.).

For the immediate future, the issue is that the Bulls need a "Lonzo Ball" type combo-forward 4. A very strong, switchable defender who can hit 3s at a high rate, but who doesn't demand a lot of shots (but will take them when needed, and will remain offensively involved even when not taking a lot of shots).

Given that, I'm not sure that Harrison Barnes or Jerami Grant, or even Pascal Siakam (who doesn't take *quite* as many shots), would "work" at the 4 between DeRozan and Vuc.

OG? Yes (and pretty, pretty, please.... but no chance of happening). A healthy Jonathan Isaac? Yes (but also not happening). DFS? Yes (but not happening). A RoCo that wasn't playing like a dog's rear-end? Yes (but chances are that's not happening either). Royce O'Neal? Yes (but not happening).

Maybe a Nassir Little (but why isn't he starting over RoCo). Rudy Gay at this point in his career (but the Jazz aren't moving him).

So I think that, rather than expending significant assets, you end up having to look for small moves that might work. Maybe playable rotation guys with good fit profiles - a la the Thunder's Isaiah Roby (who has some youth/upside) or the Pacer's very "meh" Torrey Craig (who is 31, makes 5M next year, and has a terrible plus minus track record, to include this year).

Or maybe you wait for some buy-outs, or scour the G-League and or over-seas guys who are poachable and potentially just as good as the Roby/Craig tier (DJ Wilson, Quincy Acy, Bruno Caboclo, Jan Vesely, etc.)

Sabonis has played PF more than C and it’s where he should play, the Pacers just don’t have any better option to play C

None of the guys you mentioned sound attractive, all the guys you are unsure of do, especially Grant, he’d be a perfect PF for the current Bulls

[Michael Jackson]

I'm not CBA savvy but if we're indulging pipe dreams, can we sign Mirotic to the Theis TPE? There was the news he was unhappy with Barca cutting his salary by 70%. The Portland pick dropping in value gives me little hope the Bulls will be able to move the needle via trade.

Selling low on Coby and Pat for a role-player just seems misguided, I don't even have high expectations for either of them but winning teams usually inflates players' stock. Wiseman has barely played due to injury and produced middling results when he did play, yet he's still there in every trade thread for disgruntled stars.

We could but he is not coming back to the NBA.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258245/Nikola-Mirotic-Says-He-Turned-Down-Three-Year-Offer-From-Jazz-Last-Offseason

He really does hate it here I truly believe and it’s not worth it to him. For most it’s all about $$$ but for him he prefers lifestyle of being in Europe over maxing out his money it seems.

[mack2354]

I'm not CBA savvy but if we're indulging pipe dreams, can we sign Mirotic to the Theis TPE? There was the news he was unhappy with Barca cutting his salary by 70%. The Portland pick dropping in value gives me little hope the Bulls will be able to move the needle via trade.

Selling low on Coby and Pat for a role-player just seems misguided, I don't even have high expectations for either of them but winning teams usually inflates players' stock. Wiseman has barely played due to injury and produced middling results when he did play, yet he's still there in every trade thread for disgruntled stars.

As much as I'd love him here I doubt it happens at this point. The fit is so perfect that I can't envision our front office not calling him the second P. Will was injured. Niko has a chance to start at PF and possibly stagger his minutes to play back-up Center minutes as well play playing Robin to DDR's Batman with the second unit. We are already playing great without him. I find it hard to believe we wouldn't be considered legit title contenders with him. He either has not interest in coming or he wants more money than we can afford to give him. I wonder if he blames the Bulls ownership for trading him after he was punched. Neither the coach, any of the players from that team, or the Front Office involved that year are here anymore so I'd think there shouldn't be any bad blood between Niko and this organization.

[MalagaBulls]

I'm not CBA savvy but if we're indulging pipe dreams, can we sign Mirotic to the Theis TPE? There was the news he was unhappy with Barca cutting his salary by 70%. The Portland pick dropping in value gives me little hope the Bulls will be able to move the needle via trade.

Selling low on Coby and Pat for a role-player just seems misguided, I don't even have high expectations for either of them but winning teams usually inflates players' stock. Wiseman has barely played due to injury and produced middling results when he did play, yet he's still there in every trade thread for disgruntled stars.

We could but he is not coming back to the NBA.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258245/Nikola-Mirotic-Says-He-Turned-Down-Three-Year-Offer-From-Jazz-Last-Offseason

He really does hate it here I truly believe and it’s not worth it to him. For most it’s all about $$$ but for him he prefers lifestyle of being in Europe over maxing out his money it seems.

I think the treatment he received in his last season with the Bulls went a long way to cement his thinking. When at Real Madrid all he would talk about in his last year was his dream to play for the Bulls. That soured over time and then the Portis incident.

[d boy gentleman]

I'm not CBA savvy but if we're indulging pipe dreams, can we sign Mirotic to the Theis TPE? There was the news he was unhappy with Barca cutting his salary by 70%. The Portland pick dropping in value gives me little hope the Bulls will be able to move the needle via trade.

Selling low on Coby and Pat for a role-player just seems misguided, I don't even have high expectations for either of them but winning teams usually inflates players' stock. Wiseman has barely played due to injury and produced middling results when he did play, yet he's still there in every trade thread for disgruntled stars.

We could but he is not coming back to the NBA.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258245/Nikola-Mirotic-Says-He-Turned-Down-Three-Year-Offer-From-Jazz-Last-Offseason

He really does hate it here I truly believe and it’s not worth it to him. For most it’s all about $$$ but for him he prefers lifestyle of being in Europe over maxing out his money it seems.

I think the treatment he received in his last season with the Bulls went a long way to cement his thinking. When at Real Madrid all he would talk about in his last year was his dream to play for the Bulls. That soured over time and then the Portis incident.

I would think with a new front office, that things would be different. However, I don't see him leaving Europe again to play in the NBA

[Michael Jackson]

We could but he is not coming back to the NBA.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258245/Nikola-Mirotic-Says-He-Turned-Down-Three-Year-Offer-From-Jazz-Last-Offseason

He really does hate it here I truly believe and it’s not worth it to him. For most it’s all about $$$ but for him he prefers lifestyle of being in Europe over maxing out his money it seems.

I think the treatment he received in his last season with the Bulls went a long way to cement his thinking. When at Real Madrid all he would talk about in his last year was his dream to play for the Bulls. That soured over time and then the Portis incident.

I would think with a new front office, that things would be different. However, I don't see him leaving Europe again to play in the NBA

Unless he can Zoom in for games.

[d boy gentleman]

Speaking of options, what about TJ Warren? Like Patrick, he is injured but, I think he's set to return pretty soon and I think he would also be a good fit for the team. Also an expiring contract. I'd do Brown Jr and Coby for Warren...

[MGB8]

Myles Turner is the guy you all think is the perfect fit from those Pacers names? I find him very underwhelming. Now Sabonis I could understand, would you consider White and Williams + filler?

Both are centers - neither works. Sabonis would work as a Vuc *replacement* 2 years down the line. Heck, Turner would work, too, but then you'd need to get a more offensively oriented comb-forward 4 in the starting lineup (a la a Harrison Barnes or TJ Warren or Tobias Harris, etc., etc.).

For the immediate future, the issue is that the Bulls need a "Lonzo Ball" type combo-forward 4. A very strong, switchable defender who can hit 3s at a high rate, but who doesn't demand a lot of shots (but will take them when needed, and will remain offensively involved even when not taking a lot of shots).

Given that, I'm not sure that Harrison Barnes or Jerami Grant, or even Pascal Siakam (who doesn't take *quite* as many shots), would "work" at the 4 between DeRozan and Vuc.

OG? Yes (and pretty, pretty, please.... but no chance of happening). A healthy Jonathan Isaac? Yes (but also not happening). DFS? Yes (but not happening). A RoCo that wasn't playing like a dog's rear-end? Yes (but chances are that's not happening either). Royce O'Neal? Yes (but not happening).

Maybe a Nassir Little (but why isn't he starting over RoCo). Rudy Gay at this point in his career (but the Jazz aren't moving him).

So I think that, rather than expending significant assets, you end up having to look for small moves that might work. Maybe playable rotation guys with good fit profiles - a la the Thunder's Isaiah Roby (who has some youth/upside) or the Pacer's very "meh" Torrey Craig (who is 31, makes 5M next year, and has a terrible plus minus track record, to include this year).

Or maybe you wait for some buy-outs, or scour the G-League and or over-seas guys who are poachable and potentially just as good as the Roby/Craig tier (DJ Wilson, Quincy Acy, Bruno Caboclo, Jan Vesely, etc.)

Sabonis has played PF more than C and it’s where he should play, the Pacers just don’t have any better option to play C

None of the guys you mentioned sound attractive, all the guys you are unsure of do, especially Grant, he’d be a perfect PF for the current Bulls

Sabonis is playing out of position at the 4 - his modern NBA position is the 5. This is not the 80's or 90's or even 00's or 10's.

He's not quick enough to defend Jayson Tatum, old-man Lebron, a healthy Zion, Giannis, Julius Randle, Tobias Harris, the aforementioned Jerami Grant or Harrison Barnes (both formerly understood as 3s, now clearly NBA 4s), etc.

Sure, Sabonis can play spot 4 in jumbo lineups (like what Orlando rolls out with WCJr so that they can lose game after game)... but the fact that Indiana is blowing it up despite to strong AND young bigs in Sabonis and Turner should tell you everything you need to know. Add to that the fact that AKME and Donavan are clearly 100% committed to playing a wing or combo forward at the 4 (hence Alize Johnson doesn't even get time at the 4 despite relatively good quickness).... and...

As for Barnes or Grant or Siakam, they are currently getting, respectively:

Barnes - 12.1 FGA/G - 12.5 FGA/36 - 20.6 USG (hmmm - not as high as I was thinking)
Grant - 16 FGA/G - 17.4 FGA/36 - 26.7 USG
Siakam - 15.2 FGA/G - 16.3 FGA/36 - 25 USG

On the Bulls, USG is 30.3 DD, 30.1 LaVine, then 22.8 Vuc, then of the regulars, 16.9 ball. Coby as a bench gunner did have a 20.6 usage - but that also seemed somewhat forced. The "PF" rotation of Javonte (11.4 USG), Pat Williams (9.4 USG), DJJ (13.7 usg) and, of course (and very part time), Caruso (13.5 USG) is way under even Barnes not so high usage rate.

OG actually has a higher rate than Siakam, but he's played a lower usage role as recently as last season (19.3, ) and a lot of his high usage, like Coby's, seemed somewhat forced (and causing a big drop in his TS).

THAT SAID... looking at Barnes' stats makes him seem like a much more viable option for the Bulls than I previously thought he was. The trio of Pat+Coby+T.Brown Jr. get you close enough in salary (per tradechecker).

[MGB8]

Speaking of options, what about TJ Warren? Like Patrick, he is injured but, I think he's set to return pretty soon and I think he would also be a good fit for the team. Also an expiring contract. I'd do Brown Jr and Coby for Warren...

He's pretty much an offense only guy, and then the injury issues.

[MGB8]

Per my earlier post, I want to discuss Harrison Barnes again. Pat+Coby+Troy Brown Jr. get you close enough to matching in terms of salaries. His surprisingly low usage (but elite efficiency) would seem to be a perfect fit for what the Bulls are trying to do at the 4. At the same time, he has a weirdly bad +/- this season. He wouldn't add much in terms of interior defense, either - but he's a solid enough defender.

I still believe in Pat (and, to a much lesser extent, in Coby). Given that, I don't know how much more I'd be willing to sending out beyond Pat+Coby (+TBJr) for a 29 1/2 year old who only has one more year on his deal would probably be about as much as I'd be willing to send out in terms of value. Probably the Portland pick, but it wouldn't be easy for me.

[nomorezorro]

does anyone know off the top of their heads any teams that might be in the market for barnes besides us?

i posted about this before, but i do wonder if we couldn’t get away with making coby + the portland first the centerpiece of a barnes deal, maybe round it out with tbj and javonte to let sacramento talk themselves into the idea they’re getting a crop of solid cheap young talent. we know coby sucks, but like…who’s realistically giving up significantly more than a semi-recent volume-scorer lotto pick and a probable mid-first rounder just to get harrison barnes?

[JohnnyTapwater]

In AKME I trust.

[FreeThrowLine]

Sabonis is playing out of position at the 4 - his modern NBA position is the 5. This is not the 80's or 90's or even 00's or 10's.

He's not quick enough to defend Jayson Tatum, old-man Lebron, a healthy Zion, Giannis, Julius Randle, Tobias Harris, the aforementioned Jerami Grant or Harrison Barnes (both formerly understood as 3s, now clearly NBA 4s), etc.

Sure, Sabonis can play spot 4 in jumbo lineups (like what Orlando rolls out with WCJr so that they can lose game after game)... but the fact that Indiana is blowing it up despite to strong AND young bigs in Sabonis and Turner should tell you everything you need to know. Add to that the fact that AKME and Donavan are clearly 100% committed to playing a wing or combo forward at the 4 (hence Alize Johnson doesn't even get time at the 4 despite relatively good quickness).... and...

As for Barnes or Grant or Siakam, they are currently getting, respectively:

Barnes - 12.1 FGA/G - 12.5 FGA/36 - 20.6 USG (hmmm - not as high as I was thinking)
Grant - 16 FGA/G - 17.4 FGA/36 - 26.7 USG
Siakam - 15.2 FGA/G - 16.3 FGA/36 - 25 USG

On the Bulls, USG is 30.3 DD, 30.1 LaVine, then 22.8 Vuc, then of the regulars, 16.9 ball. Coby as a bench gunner did have a 20.6 usage - but that also seemed somewhat forced. The "PF" rotation of Javonte (11.4 USG), Pat Williams (9.4 USG), DJJ (13.7 usg) and, of course (and very part time), Caruso (13.5 USG) is way under even Barnes not so high usage rate.

OG actually has a higher rate than Siakam, but he's played a lower usage role as recently as last season (19.3, ) and a lot of his high usage, like Coby's, seemed somewhat forced (and causing a big drop in his TS).

THAT SAID... looking at Barnes' stats makes him seem like a much more viable option for the Bulls than I previously thought he was. The trio of Pat+Coby+T.Brown Jr. get you close enough in salary (per tradechecker).

Why would he need to defend Tatum? Horford is their PF and he could guard him fine. He won't see Zion or Lebron in the playoffs, he'd be fine against Randle and Harris. The only guy that would be trouble is going to be trouble no matter who you have and that's Giannis, and I sure as hell would rather have Sabonis guarding him than DeRozan.

Just because the Bulls are winning now by playing undersized, doesn't mean it's going to work in the playoffs, especially if you have to face Giannis/KD/Adebayo in a 7 game series. The Bulls need better depth than what they have up front and an unselfish guy that can give you almost 20 a game while ripping down 12 boards and dishing 4 assists is the perfect fit in my opinion.

I don't know that they're committed to playing a wing at the 4, so much as they're putting the best players on the court because Johnson and other options just aren't very good and Williams is out.

Indiana considering blowing it up is not a reflection on the play or ability of Sabonis

Sabonis might operate in what looks like slow motion, but he's very effective because he's smart. He's unselfish, can handle the ball well for his size and an excellent passer. I can't imagine the Bulls not being a legit contender if they can get him for Williams/White and managing to keep the rest of their core

Watch on YouTube

[MGB8]

Sabonis is playing out of position at the 4 - his modern NBA position is the 5. This is not the 80's or 90's or even 00's or 10's.

He's not quick enough to defend Jayson Tatum, old-man Lebron, a healthy Zion, Giannis, Julius Randle, Tobias Harris, the aforementioned Jerami Grant or Harrison Barnes (both formerly understood as 3s, now clearly NBA 4s), etc.

Sure, Sabonis can play spot 4 in jumbo lineups (like what Orlando rolls out with WCJr so that they can lose game after game)... but the fact that Indiana is blowing it up despite to strong AND young bigs in Sabonis and Turner should tell you everything you need to know. Add to that the fact that AKME and Donavan are clearly 100% committed to playing a wing or combo forward at the 4 (hence Alize Johnson doesn't even get time at the 4 despite relatively good quickness).... and...

As for Barnes or Grant or Siakam, they are currently getting, respectively:

Barnes - 12.1 FGA/G - 12.5 FGA/36 - 20.6 USG (hmmm - not as high as I was thinking)
Grant - 16 FGA/G - 17.4 FGA/36 - 26.7 USG
Siakam - 15.2 FGA/G - 16.3 FGA/36 - 25 USG

On the Bulls, USG is 30.3 DD, 30.1 LaVine, then 22.8 Vuc, then of the regulars, 16.9 ball. Coby as a bench gunner did have a 20.6 usage - but that also seemed somewhat forced. The "PF" rotation of Javonte (11.4 USG), Pat Williams (9.4 USG), DJJ (13.7 usg) and, of course (and very part time), Caruso (13.5 USG) is way under even Barnes not so high usage rate.

OG actually has a higher rate than Siakam, but he's played a lower usage role as recently as last season (19.3, ) and a lot of his high usage, like Coby's, seemed somewhat forced (and causing a big drop in his TS).

THAT SAID... looking at Barnes' stats makes him seem like a much more viable option for the Bulls than I previously thought he was. The trio of Pat+Coby+T.Brown Jr. get you close enough in salary (per tradechecker).

Why would he need to defend Tatum? Horford is their PF and he could guard him fine. He won't see Zion or Lebron in the playoffs, he'd be fine against Randle and Harris. The only guy that would be trouble is going to be trouble no matter who you have and that's Giannis, and I sure as hell would rather have Sabonis guarding him than DeRozan.

Just because the Bulls are winning now by playing undersized, doesn't mean it's going to work in the playoffs, especially if you have to face Giannis/KD/Adebayo in a 7 game series. The Bulls need better depth than what they have up front and an unselfish guy that can give you almost 20 a game while ripping down 12 boards and dishing 4 assists is the perfect fit in my opinion.

I don't know that they're committed to playing a wing at the 4, so much as they're putting the best players on the court because Johnson and other options just aren't very good and Williams is out.

Indiana considering blowing it up is not a reflection on the play or ability of Sabonis

Sabonis might operate in what looks like slow motion, but he's very effective because he's smart. He's unselfish, can handle the ball well for his size and an excellent passer. I can't imagine the Bulls not being a legit contender if they can get him for Williams/White and managing to keep the rest of their core

Watch on YouTube

Horford is their center when everyone is healthy. Tatum their 4. Brown their 3. Smart - 2. Schröder- q. Injuries have forced them to go big, and that has had a lot to do with them losing.

Sabonis is a 5, not a 4. Just like Adebayo is primarily a 5 now, with Dedmond a reserve.

[FreeThrowLine]

Horford is their center when everyone is healthy. Tatum their 4. Brown their 3. Smart - 2. Schröder- q. Injuries have forced them to go big, and that has had a lot to do with them losing.

Sabonis is a 5, not a 4. Just like Adebayo is primarily a 5 now, with Dedmond a reserve.

If everyone is healthy then Williams is their center, just as he has been when both he and Horford have played and rightfully so. Injuries haven't forced them to change that, when healthy they've gone with Smart and Brown at the 1 & 2 with Tatum at the 3, Horford at 4 and Williams at 5. Schroeder off the bench.

Sabonis can play either the 4 or the 5, just like Adebayo. Ideally you want your bigs to be able to fill both positions depending on matchups, you're welcome to disagree but it's very obvious that Sabonis would be an absolute upgrade for the Bulls at PF and could more than handle that role.

If you watched the Pacers game today you’d have seen Sabonis guard and be guarded by Randle, Robinson and Gibson. I don’t think any of them scored a single basket whilst being guarded by him.

Randle, Gibson and Robinson combined went 7-20 for the game while Sabonis was 7-8. He grabbed 11 boards to their combined 14 and had 5 assists (all beautiful passes) to their combined 2…all while playing less than half the combined minutes they played.

You still worried about how he’d match up with the Knicks?

[Michael Jackson]

Horford is their center when everyone is healthy. Tatum their 4. Brown their 3. Smart - 2. Schröder- q. Injuries have forced them to go big, and that has had a lot to do with them losing.

Sabonis is a 5, not a 4. Just like Adebayo is primarily a 5 now, with Dedmond a reserve.

If everyone is healthy then Williams is their center, just as he has been when both he and Horford have played and rightfully so. Injuries haven't forced them to change that, when healthy they've gone with Smart and Brown at the 1 & 2 with Tatum at the 3, Horford at 4 and Williams at 5. Schroeder off the bench.

Sabonis can play either the 4 or the 5, just like Adebayo. Ideally you want your bigs to be able to fill both positions depending on matchups, you're welcome to disagree but it's very obvious that Sabonis would be an absolute upgrade for the Bulls at PF and could more than handle that role.

If you watched the Pacers game today you’d have seen Sabonis guard and be guarded by Randle, Robinson and Gibson. I don’t think any of them scored a single basket whilst being guarded by him.

Randle, Gibson and Robinson combined went 7-20 for the game while Sabonis was 7-8. He grabbed 11 boards to their combined 14 and had 5 assists (all beautiful passes) to their combined 2…all while playing less than half the combined minutes they played.

You still worried about how he’d match up with the Knicks?

Sabonis woukd be an upgrade. No doubt. Just not sure Indy wants anything we would give up. Granted there are reports that they will blow it up but Kyrie and Simmons are both available too and deals haven’t been found. I think Indy ideally is looking to deal with like an OKC and get a bunch of draft assets instead of ?’s that are already years into their rookie deals. Maybe Pat but they would have to really believe in him, which I could understand if they didn’t. I surely have questions still.

[bad knees]

I need some volume 3 pt shooting, good size, decent defense, and a playoff-tested veteran at PF. Bring me Harrison Barnes!