[Wolfson] Toronto Raptors are a team to keep an eye on

[OAKLEY_2]

I still like the Moses Brown/Josh Green/Dwight Powell/WCS for Dragic/Flynn trade from Dallas. I happen to think that the Raps could potentially get Simmons, but I think it hinges on who the other team(s) in the trade are.

Who are you cutting buying out to add two additional roster spots? That deal is circle the drain for the Raps esp. contract wise.

[mdenny]

Bud it’s not that complicated. These are moves that actually happened, I don’t know how you can say they were unrealistic. A $19 million salary dump and a decent big on a rookie contract is not good value. You are missing the entire point about opportunity cost.

I clearly stated the potential deals that actually happened which we missed out on because we took on dead money for a marginal asset.

The first round pick is for taking on 2 years of Favors. That’s the entire point of the trade from Utah’s perspective.

We didn’t have cap space to sign Holmes because we still had Lowry’s cap hold so we couldn’t sign him.

Favours is a cap dump who could play backup C for us. Holmes would be the starting C for us. Holmes on his current contract with his current production has more value that Achiuwa. In this scenario we have now have a future 1st + Holmes who is worth more than Achiuwa. This opportunity was missed because we made the Lowry sign-and-trade.

We had $20+ mill in cap space if we renounced Lowry + Bouchers contract to match Kemba’s contract. He agreed to a $20 million buyout to go to the Knicks as well so no luxury tax concerns.

You're not getting it. Precious is already outplaying his contract by between 6 to 8 million per year. And we get him for two more seasons at that discounted rate. He's already worth an approx 8 million cap hit (probably more tbh) and we're getting him for an actual 2 million cap hit.

Next year he should improve. The year after that even more.....but his salary is set in stone. So he will be a player who is making FAR below market value for 3 seasons.

The 19 million cap hit for dragic is ONLY this year.

It doesn’t matter if he’s out playing his contract this year because the cost to get him was Dragic’s dead money plus his salary. To have Achiuwa on the roster this year you are paying $19 million + $2 million. He is no where near worth $21 million this year.

The thing you guys are not understanding is that next year doesn’t matter since we are already over the cap. It doesn’t matter if Achiuwa is making $2 mill or $8 mill. We can’t do nothing with the savings.

He is an undersized centre averaging 8/8 with TS of 42%. That is terrible especially for a centre. His market value is not that high imo.

I'm trying to be nice to to you.

Next season, we will have precious at a 4 milly cap hit. The season after that...we'll have him at 6.

He's already out-performing 6.

[mulamutti]

we've heard over & again that Pascal is available. I think rehabbing his value is a top priority this season

obviously with the new core of players Pascal/FVV don't quite fit the timeline, and you have to think this team is headed to the lottery at least once more before we aim to be contenders

might make sense to blow it up now and get things fast tracked

at the same time I do think we're one star player away from being a true contender. you have to hand it to Masai, we're always in position to go move in any direction & let the market dictate what we do. other teams will be forced to make bad trades because they are in dire "win now" mode while other losing teams have nothing beyond their picks to offer to improve

I don't agree with quitting on Siakam/FVV level players. They are both experienced young players that have won a championship. They garner that respect from the league and most importantly the young raptors. Their presence accelerates the development of the young players and sets a tone and expectation from them. Without them, we'll just be a sacramento or new orleans or some truly terrible team that takes years to develop. with our team fully healthy and 1-2 years under our belt to iron out all the rookie and sophomore inconsistencies, this team will be in the playoffs. Without FVV/siakam, it could be 5 or more years. makes no sense.

[Rapsfan07]

Gary is shooting almost 39% from 3 on 5.6 attempts which is better than Bradley Beal's career average.

And that's cool innat, but Beal also brings more to the game. He's a better scorer than Trent and a better playmaker. Not to mention he's more efficient.

So yeah. I said this before but I think Trent is much better suited as a 6th man on a contending team.

Beal age 19-22: 17.6 PTS (44% on 2FGA and 40% on 3 FGA with 3.1 FTA and a 52 TS%), 4.1 REB, 3.3 AST per36

GTJ age 19-22: 16.5 PTS (45% on 2FGA and 39% on 3FGA with 1.8 FTA and a 54 TS%), 3.0 REB, 1.7 AST per36

Keep in mind Beal had a 23.6 USG% over that span while GTJ has a career 19.0 USG% so far. That 5% difference almost entirely accounts for the extra 1.1 points and 1.6 AST. It should be obvious that Beal would be the better scorer and playmaker now when he is in his 10th season and has played 500 more NBA games than GTJ, but their early career numbers are extremely comparable. Obviously there is no guarantee that GTJ will turn into a Beal type of player that almost averaged 25/5/5 over the last 5+ years, but it is ridiculous to claim that there is "no comparison inside the three-point line" when the numbers are so easily accessible. GTJ is more efficient inside the line than Beal was in his first 4 seasons lol.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

I seen and understand the comparison. I can appreciate the numbers. But I'm not sure I'm ready to dub GTJ the second coming of Bradley Beal.

[Raptors_128]

You're not getting it. Precious is already outplaying his contract by between 6 to 8 million per year. And we get him for two more seasons at that discounted rate. He's already worth an approx 8 million cap hit (probably more tbh) and we're getting him for an actual 2 million cap hit.

Next year he should improve. The year after that even more.....but his salary is set in stone. So he will be a player who is making FAR below market value for 3 seasons.

The 19 million cap hit for dragic is ONLY this year.

It doesn’t matter if he’s out playing his contract this year because the cost to get him was Dragic’s dead money plus his salary. To have Achiuwa on the roster this year you are paying $19 million + $2 million. He is no where near worth $21 million this year.

The thing you guys are not understanding is that next year doesn’t matter since we are already over the cap. It doesn’t matter if Achiuwa is making $2 mill or $8 mill. We can’t do nothing with the savings.

He is an undersized centre averaging 8/8 with TS of 42%. That is terrible especially for a centre. His market value is not that high imo.

I'm trying to be nice to to you.

Next season, we will have precious at a 4 milly cap hit. The season after that...we'll have him at 6.

He's already out-performing 6.

There’s nothing to be nice about. We’re just having a discussion. You said your arguments and I said mine. I appreciated the discussion, don’t take anything I said personally

[Raptors_128]

You're not getting it. Precious is already outplaying his contract by between 6 to 8 million per year. And we get him for two more seasons at that discounted rate. He's already worth an approx 8 million cap hit (probably more tbh) and we're getting him for an actual 2 million cap hit.

Next year he should improve. The year after that even more.....but his salary is set in stone. So he will be a player who is making FAR below market value for 3 seasons.

The 19 million cap hit for dragic is ONLY this year.

It doesn’t matter if he’s out playing his contract this year because the cost to get him was Dragic’s dead money plus his salary. To have Achiuwa on the roster this year you are paying $19 million + $2 million. He is no where near worth $21 million this year.

The thing you guys are not understanding is that next year doesn’t matter since we are already over the cap. It doesn’t matter if Achiuwa is making $2 mill or $8 mill. We can’t do nothing with the savings.

He is an undersized centre averaging 8/8 with TS of 42%. That is terrible especially for a centre. His market value is not that high imo.

Folks - what's done is done. Dragic is here, Achiuwa is here. Can we stop derailing this with the same tired argument from the summer. The horse was dead ages ago, just bury the damn thing. It contributes nothing to the conversation of what the Raptors can do NOW because there's waves, which is what the thread is about.

The question is do they roll Dragic into a salary expiring the following year for trade fodder given the salary outlook going forward.

I was enjoying the discussion honestly. Good to see different perspectives.

Since we’re over the cap next year anyways I wouldn’t mind taking on salary next year for a better asset.

[QingJames]

Dragic if bought out definitely cost the raptors money this year (for the benefit of facilitating acquiring Achiuwa)

https://theathletic.com/806297/2019/02/08/picks-cash-and-roster-space-explaining-the-raptors-cap-sheet-and-deadline-deals/

Raptors traded two 2nd round picks to save money (luxury tax) back in 2018/2019 - this shows that the amount of money spent (whether above or below luxury tax) means a good deal to our FO. You may argue it's only the owner's money, but I'm sure our FO operates on a financial constraint measured not just by "did we cross the luxury tax line?" - as a fiduciary duty to the owners.

With that in mind, Achiuwa is not worth the cost of Dragic doing nothing for us (now or future) for 19M

Terrible post, 19M is nothing in the NBA. You couldn’t buy a first round pick for 19M.

[Spates]

Masai and Bobby are evaluating while the fans are not so patiently waiting for clear indication of the team's direction.

What has to be given up for an impactful center? There's redundancy at 2/3/4.

[mrdressup]

Sabonis can't possibly be worse than JV was. I think you acquire him and try and acquire a 7 foot monster later when you feel you are ready. There would be nothing wrong with him now. We' re not going to be contenders in the next 4 or 5 years. You just have to incrementally move that direction. The draft may never fill our holes.

[brownbobcat]

I'm trying to be nice to to you.

Next season, we will have precious at a 4 milly cap hit. The season after that...we'll have him at 6.

He's already out-performing 6.

Is he really, though?

Yes, there's value in potential but is he actually worth $6M based only on his play? That's almost as much as what Zubac makes and he's a hell of a lot better. Or any number of journeymen Cs - Plumlee, Dwight, McGee, Zeller, DJ, etc.

[aligator]

When are posters going to understand that the FO does not want a traditional C and certainly are not going to give up any assets to get one. We have been told already that they are experimenting with different types of lineups that are somewhat position less.This experiment is expected to continue at least until trade deadline 2023 when an adjustment can be made if the experiment is not working to FO satisfaction. For the same reason, don't expect any big trades before then. The most you might see is Boucher or Dragic (if possible) and maybe Flynn for a better fit. Svi will likely be dealt at the deadline for a 2nd.

[vulture]

When are posters going to understand that the FO does not want a traditional C and certainly are not going to give up any assets to get one. We have been told already that they are experimenting with different types of lineups that are somewhat position less.This experiment is expected to continue at least until trade deadline 2023 when an adjustment can be made if the experiment is not working to FO satisfaction. For the same reason, don't expect any big trades before then. The most you might see is Boucher or Dragic (if possible) and maybe Flynn for a better fit. Svi will likely be dealt at the deadline for a 2nd.

What do you expect when fans have no idea what our schemes actually are? Any center we have would have to be able to switch, drop, blitz in a pinch since nurse's schemes change from possession to possession. Fans don't really understand any of this so they just look at numbers.

[ConSarnit]

When are posters going to understand that the FO does not want a traditional C and certainly are not going to give up any assets to get one. We have been told already that they are experimenting with different types of lineups that are somewhat position less.This experiment is expected to continue at least until trade deadline 2023 when an adjustment can be made if the experiment is not working to FO satisfaction. For the same reason, don't expect any big trades before then. The most you might see is Boucher or Dragic (if possible) and maybe Flynn for a better fit. Svi will likely be dealt at the deadline for a 2nd.

What do you expect when fans have no idea what our schemes actually are? Any center we have would have to be able to switch, drop, blitz in a pinch since nurse's schemes change from possession to possession. Fans don't really understand any of this so they just look at numbers.

You’d think they’d see that’s it’s pretty clear what the front office’s MO is when it comes to centers.

You have to either defend OR spread the floor OR ideally both. It is also the easiest piece to acquire and can be done so for middling assets. For example: Serge and Marc. Even Baynes fit this model before he fell off a cliff.

And if you can’t do what Serge or Gasol do they will acquire someone cheap as a stop gap: Baynes, Birch, Precious and you can lump Boucher in there too. None of those guys cost us anything real and they all make sub-MLE money on short term deals.

When we are ready to contend again the FO will find another Serge/Marc type C because those guys are always floating around out there. Turner fits the bill but there’s no reason to give up anything of value to secure the 7th seed this year. Sabonis is neither a good defender nor does he open up the floor and I would be shocked if he’s on our FO’s radar.

People looking for a legit C upgrade might have to get used to waiting for a while given the state of this team.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

Deja vu. This proposal was discussed ad nauseam before this season started. Difference being Dragic still had perceived value back then so adding Flynn wasn't needed

I still like the Moses Brown/Josh Green/Dwight Powell/WCS for Dragic/Flynn trade from Dallas. I happen to think that the Raps could potentially get Simmons, but I think it hinges on who the other team(s) in the trade are.

If I'm Masai I'm asking for a FRP for taking on Powell's extra year. Better bet would be a deal with dragic centered around Prince with the T-wolves. Maybe make it a three way with Powell going to the Twolves and Dragic to Dallas.

I don't think Dragic's value is any less or more it was than before. He's been in the league for quite a while. His value is generally set.
The only thing is that teams might not be willing to trade for him if they feel he's going to be bought out and they can sign him for the vet min. You have to thread the needle and make a trade with a team that values him highly enough to trade for him while simultaneously thinking they won't be able to sign him away after a buyout.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

I'm trying to be nice to to you.

Next season, we will have precious at a 4 milly cap hit. The season after that...we'll have him at 6.

He's already out-performing 6.

Is he really, though?

Yes, there's value in potential but is he actually worth $6M based only on his play? That's almost as much as what Zubac makes and he's a hell of a lot better. Or any number of journeymen Cs - Plumlee, Dwight, McGee, Zeller, DJ, etc.

He's making 2.7 this year and certainly outperforming that. he's a keeper at least for this year.

[Merit]

I still like the Moses Brown/Josh Green/Dwight Powell/WCS for Dragic/Flynn trade from Dallas. I happen to think that the Raps could potentially get Simmons, but I think it hinges on who the other team(s) in the trade are.

Who are you cutting buying out to add two additional roster spots? That deal is circle the drain for the Raps esp. contract wise.

Good question. I was actually hoping to buy out or move WCS to a third team. I'd also be open to moving any of our deep roster guys like Svi, for example.

The follow-up trade would include something like WCS/Svi and Boucher for... someone. I think that would clear up a few things.

Hope that answers the question.

[DangerZone13]

If indeed the buzz was regarding Boucher, he did us some favours tonight. It's great to see him utilizing those long arms around the post instead of camping for 3's.

From time to time I wonder if OG and Birch's prolonged absences leading up to Dec 15th are strategized to afford Siakam ample opportunity to get his rhythm as "The Guy", and Boucher to get some mins to help the league forget his poor early season efforts.

[dagger]

I don't think many fans got the gist of shat Masai said before the season. Are poured cold water on any compete now strategy, lined Trent Jr up to possibly go by 2023 or 2024 if he doesn't meet the team's expectations for him. Masai is not going to make some big move at the deadline this year for the sake of doing it, unless it is very much a winner for him. I mean, with our convenient run of nagging injuries - no one is ever in a hurry to get back, I mean OG must have the worst hip pointer in athletic history. It's a hip pointer, but he might as well have had knee surgery he's been out so long, The plan includes soaking up assets that could show growth in value, for peaking in that 2023-24 time frame when they might help grease a bigger playoff effort or a significant trade. For Siakam or Fred to be traded this season, it would have to be a blockbuster that reshapes the entire team. It's not happening. Next summer, there's a chance. The summer after? We'll see.

[LiSTWithLani]

A lot of hot takes from fans that clearly dislike our roster.

Personally, I really like Svi. Boucher has a unique game and looks like he's rounding back into form.

Getting Achiuwa for the price/ flexibility of taking on Dragic remains a smart decision in my opinion. None of the deals that happened league-wide seemed likely for us to take part in.

[OakleyDokely]

I don't think many fans got the gist of shat Masai said before the season. Are poured cold water on any compete now strategy, lined Trent Jr up to possibly go by 2023 or 2024 if he doesn't meet the team's expectations for him. Masai is not going to make some big move at the deadline this year for the sake of doing it, unless it is very much a winner for him. I mean, with our convenient run of nagging injuries - no one is ever in a hurry to get back, I mean OG must have the worst hip pointer in athletic history. It's a hip pointer, but he might as well have had knee surgery he's been out so long, The plan includes soaking up assets that could show growth in value, for peaking in that 2023-24 time frame when they might help grease a bigger playoff effort or a significant trade. For Siakam or Fred to be traded this season, it would have to be a blockbuster that reshapes the entire team. It's not happening. Next summer, there's a chance. The summer after? We'll see.

The thing not being talk about right now is that VV has an opt out after next season like GTJ. It's very likely that he opts out in order to secure what will probably be his last big, long term contract of his career. Do the Raps want to pay big money to him into his 30s?