Enough is Enough vogel has got to go.

[Pythagoras]

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it. THT and Bradley are getting too many minutes. Monk, Ellington, and Reaves aren’t getting enough. Cut THT’s minutes down. Cut Bradley completely from the rotation. Vogel’s rotations are far and away the biggest problem with this team currently, and no other issue is even close.

The difference in Ellington’s offense vs THT or Bradley’s offense >>>>>> the difference in THT or Bradley’s defense vs Ellington’s defense

The difference in Monk’s offense vs THT or Bradley’s offense >>>>>> the difference in THT or Bradley’s defense vs Monks’s defense

In games that you need more defense play Dwight and Reaves more.

None of the serious contenders this year: the Nets, Suns, Bucks, Warriors, and maybe the Bulls and Jazz, are giving as many minutes to rotation players as bad as Bradley and THT are as the Lakers have been.

[LAKESHOW]

I'm not one to hold back. In other words, give and allow Lebron full access and freedom. Give the players what they want. Go ahead and Fire Vogel. And let's place it all at Lebrons feet. We ride or die. Win or Lose. Then we can clearly see. Its on Vogel? Its on Lebron? Its on Pelinka? Lets dive in and see Truth.
Then we can make honest assessments and make changes. But we don't need internal blame game. We need mirrors and lights to see who we truly are. So far, this blame game is pointing at roster construction. Player mesh and failed chemistry. Coaching inability. Lets delve in and see what is wrong with this team. No more finger pointing

[Ball so hard]

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it. THT and Bradley are getting too many minutes. Monk, Ellington, and Reaves aren’t getting enough. Cut THT’s minutes down. Cut Bradley completely from the rotation. Vogel’s rotations are far and away the biggest problem with this team currently, and no other issue is even close.

The difference in Ellington’s offense vs THT or Bradley’s offense >>>>>> the difference in THT or Bradley’s defense vs Ellington’s defense

The difference in Monk’s offense vs THT or Bradley’s offense >>>>>> the difference in THT or Bradley’s defense vs Monks’s defense

In games that you need more defense play Dwight and Reaves more.

None of the serious contenders this year: the Nets, Suns, Bucks, Warriors, and maybe the Bulls and Jazz, are giving as many minutes to rotation players as bad as Bradley and THT are as the Lakers have been.

I agree some of his rotations have been bad, but I disagree with rotations being the biggest issue. Off the top of my head I can list at least two other issues that are problematic. The first one that's obvious to just about everyone is the Westbrook fit. The second(closely related to the first) is how poorly this roster was put together. You essentially signed/acquired players who are all offensive minded or old. Not one player on this roster is average on both ends. Let's call this 1B for now. The second is AD. AD has not looked like himself all year. Nearly everyone thought AD at center would be a game changer... can anyone say this has been a big improvement for our team? He's -3.2 and -6.8 per 100 Poss (on court) while playing PF and C, respectively.

THT is a victim of a poorly built roster. You're doing THT any favors playing him next to Russ. I've consistently said starting him with Russ makes no sense. Playing THT, Monk, Ellington, and Melo together also doesn't make much sense... this will lead to an atrocious defense. Lakers should've committed to THT either being the starting PG or full time back-up playing heavy minutes. Currently he's playing with a bunch of guys who are almost always looking to get theirs. In a nutshell there's really not much Vogel or anyone can do to make sense of this roster. I was also never a fan of the Bradley signing.

[Pythagoras]

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it. THT and Bradley are getting too many minutes. Monk, Ellington, and Reaves aren’t getting enough. Cut THT’s minutes down. Cut Bradley completely from the rotation. Vogel’s rotations are far and away the biggest problem with this team currently, and no other issue is even close.

The difference in Ellington’s offense vs THT or Bradley’s offense >>>>>> the difference in THT or Bradley’s defense vs Ellington’s defense

The difference in Monk’s offense vs THT or Bradley’s offense >>>>>> the difference in THT or Bradley’s defense vs Monks’s defense

In games that you need more defense play Dwight and Reaves more.

None of the serious contenders this year: the Nets, Suns, Bucks, Warriors, and maybe the Bulls and Jazz, are giving as many minutes to rotation players as bad as Bradley and THT are as the Lakers have been.

I agree some of his rotations have been bad, but I disagree with rotations being the biggest issue. Off the top of my head I can list at least two other issues that are problematic. The first one that's obvious to just about everyone is the Westbrook fit. The second(closely related to the first) is how poorly this roster was put together. You essentially signed/acquired players who are all offensive minded or old. Not one player on this roster is average on both ends. Let's call this 1B for now. The second is AD. AD has not looked like himself all year. Nearly everyone thought AD at center would be a game changer... can anyone say this has been a big improvement for our team? He's -3.2 and -6.8 per 100 Poss (on court) while playing PF and C, respectively.

THT is a victim of a poorly built roster. You're doing THT any favors playing him next to Russ. I've consistently said starting him with Russ makes no sense. Playing THT, Monk, Ellington, and Melo together also doesn't make much sense... this will lead to an atrocious defense. Lakers should've committed to THT either being the starting PG or full time back-up playing heavy minutes. Currently he's playing with a bunch of guys who are almost always looking to get theirs. In a nutshell there's really not much Vogel or anyone can do to make sense of this roster. I was also never a fan of the Bradley signing.

I mean, you just named an easy adjustment Vogel could implement. Commit THT to heavy backup minutes, which I agree with. He doesn’t fit with the starting lineup, and he’s not good enough to bench Russ for. It’s not like he can’t continue to grow and develop if he’s getting a solid 20 min a night off the bench. 28 is too many for the caliber player he is right now.

You also mentioned the Bradley signing, which I too, wasn’t a fan of. But Bradley was signed for depth purposes, not to be a starter. Frank continues to play him over not one but two better options on the bench in Ellington, and Monk. He did the same thing with DJ, wasting a quarter of the season giving him minutes, when he should have been cut from the rotation much earlier than that.

It’s hard to tell how good this team is, because they’re missing Nunn and Frank’s rotations have been God awful.

[stan francisco]

Vogel is on a five games at a time regimen. After five games, the coaches reassess if the players did what was asked of them in those five games, then they tweak the rotations and go with that for five games.

If a player is not performing defensively (Ellington, Bazemore, DAJ etc), there’s one of two things to do; give them more time (another five games) to try to correct it, or you sit them on the bench.

It’s not about offense with Frank. We have more than enough offense to win rings, assuming we hold the opponents to below, let’s say, 95 points.

[LAKESHOW]

I understand the 5 game thing. But I coulda told him in 2 minutes DeAndre was a complete waste of time. Meaning, some adjustments can take time. I could see right off when he got thru the door.
Another reason Vogel is pissed at Pelinka. Vogel is probably saying to Pelinka, with your moves, its hard for me to make chicken salad and chicken soup out of Chicken sh**

[stan francisco]

I understand the 5 game thing. But I coulda told him in 2 minutes DeAndre was a complete waste of time. Meaning, some adjustments can take time. I could see right off when he got thru the door.
Another reason Vogel is pissed at Pelinka. Vogel is probably saying to Pelinka, with your moves, its hard for me to make chicken salad and chicken soup out of Chicken sh**

Agreed. I’m just reminding everyone it was equally annoying to be on Vogel’s methodical journey even in the year we won rings.

Where we differ in opinion is perhaps in where the errors happened. I’d blame Rich Paul and LBJ before Storytime Pelinka. This roster seems to me to be LeBron and friends, not solely Pelinka’s doing. If you sign the papers at gun point (lose your job if you say no to LBJ), I won’t hold you ultimately responsible.

[Pythagoras]

I understand the 5 game thing. But I coulda told him in 2 minutes DeAndre was a complete waste of time. Meaning, some adjustments can take time. I could see right off when he got thru the door.
Another reason Vogel is pissed at Pelinka. Vogel is probably saying to Pelinka, with your moves, its hard for me to make chicken salad and chicken soup out of Chicken sh**

Agreed. I’m just reminding everyone it was equally annoying to be on Vogel’s methodical journey even in the year we won rings.

Where we differ in opinion is perhaps in where the errors happened. I’d blame Rich Paul and LBJ before Storytime Pelinka. This roster seems to me to be LeBron and friends, not solely Pelinka’s doing. If you sign the papers at gun point (lose your job if you say no to LBJ), I won’t hold you ultimately responsible.

There is a fine line between methodical and myopic, and Vogel is skirting that line with his lineup rotations. He is an absolutely brilliant defensive mind. In the Lakers last 11 games, they’re 6th in DRTG, and for the season they’ve moved up to 11th. However, he has zero idea how to put together a functional offense without Lebron on the floor, and the Lakers have a mediocre offensive rating of 23rd in the league. This problem with Vogel dates back to his days in Indiana, where the Pacers always had mediocre offenses under his tenure outside of his first year.

He’s not a bad coach, but when I look up and see DJ getting more minutes than Ellington in a game against Orlando where the Lakers are struggling to score, it tells me he’s pretty much overcommitted to playing only guys he feels give him good defensive minutes. Even if that means the offense will continue to be mediocre.

[wco81]

Lakers may be able to get a little momentum going.

They've had a very favorable schedule and the next 3 games are at Dallas (Luka may be out), at Wolves and at Bulls (which have like 10 players in protocol, though some may or may not be out by then).


I don't know how accurate this site is but so far the Lakers have had the easiest schedule.

http://powerrankingsguru.com/nba/strength-of-schedule.php

Some good games coming up though, Suns come on 12/14 and the Nets visit on 12/25.

Anyone know their record vs. teams above .500 and teams in the playoffs?

[tamaraw08]

Lakers may be able to get a little momentum going.

They've had a very favorable schedule and the next 3 games are at Dallas (Luka may be out), at Wolves and at Bulls (which have like 10 players in protocol, though some may or may not be out by then).


I don't know how accurate this site is but so far the Lakers have had the easiest schedule.

http://powerrankingsguru.com/nba/strength-of-schedule.php

Some good games coming up though, Suns come on 12/14 and the Nets visit on 12/25.

Anyone know their record vs. teams above .500 and teams in the playoffs?

2 main things to consider if the Lakers would do well or struggle.
1. If Lebron is shooting good from 3 or not. The last 3 losses, James struggled for 25% or less.
15.4% vs Kings= loss
25% vs Clips= loss
16.7% vs Memphis= loss
2. They usually win vs bad 3pt shooting teams like Orlando, Pistons and OKC(30.7%) but lose badly vs top shooting teams like Suns, Bulls, Warriors etc.
The first game they lost to OKC, Thunder shot an insane 40.5%
The 2nd game they lost still shot decently at 36.6%

[stan francisco]

I understand the 5 game thing. But I coulda told him in 2 minutes DeAndre was a complete waste of time. Meaning, some adjustments can take time. I could see right off when he got thru the door.
Another reason Vogel is pissed at Pelinka. Vogel is probably saying to Pelinka, with your moves, its hard for me to make chicken salad and chicken soup out of Chicken sh**

Agreed. I’m just reminding everyone it was equally annoying to be on Vogel’s methodical journey even in the year we won rings.

Where we differ in opinion is perhaps in where the errors happened. I’d blame Rich Paul and LBJ before Storytime Pelinka. This roster seems to me to be LeBron and friends, not solely Pelinka’s doing. If you sign the papers at gun point (lose your job if you say no to LBJ), I won’t hold you ultimately responsible.

There is a fine line between methodical and myopic, and Vogel is skirting that line with his lineup rotations. He is an absolutely brilliant defensive mind. In the Lakers last 11 games, they’re 6th in DRTG, and for the season they’ve moved up to 11th. However, he has zero idea how to put together a functional offense without Lebron on the floor, and the Lakers have a mediocre offensive rating of 23rd in the league. This problem with Vogel dates back to his days in Indiana, where the Pacers always had mediocre offenses under his tenure outside of his first year.

He’s not a bad coach, but when I look up and see DJ getting more minutes than Ellington in a game against Orlando where the Lakers are struggling to score, it tells me he’s pretty much overcommitted to playing only guys he feels give him good defensive minutes. Even if that means the offense will continue to be mediocre.

I think the reasoning goes something like, ‘if we hold opponents under 94 points we will win enough games to get to the post season, no matter how ugly the offense.’

I’m a defense first freak, but an entertaining offense moving off the ball isn’t that hard to teach. Watch a game of good soccer, Frank! It’s not brain surgery. Or let an assistant coach help.

[tamaraw08]

Agreed. I’m just reminding everyone it was equally annoying to be on Vogel’s methodical journey even in the year we won rings.

Where we differ in opinion is perhaps in where the errors happened. I’d blame Rich Paul and LBJ before Storytime Pelinka. This roster seems to me to be LeBron and friends, not solely Pelinka’s doing. If you sign the papers at gun point (lose your job if you say no to LBJ), I won’t hold you ultimately responsible.

There is a fine line between methodical and myopic, and Vogel is skirting that line with his lineup rotations. He is an absolutely brilliant defensive mind. In the Lakers last 11 games, they’re 6th in DRTG, and for the season they’ve moved up to 11th. However, he has zero idea how to put together a functional offense without Lebron on the floor, and the Lakers have a mediocre offensive rating of 23rd in the league. This problem with Vogel dates back to his days in Indiana, where the Pacers always had mediocre offenses under his tenure outside of his first year.

He’s not a bad coach, but when I look up and see DJ getting more minutes than Ellington in a game against Orlando where the Lakers are struggling to score, it tells me he’s pretty much overcommitted to playing only guys he feels give him good defensive minutes. Even if that means the offense will continue to be mediocre.

I think the reasoning goes something like, ‘if we hold opponents under 94 points we will win enough games to get to the post season, no matter how ugly the offense.’

I’m a defense first freak, but an entertaining offense moving off the ball isn’t that hard to teach. Watch a game of good soccer, Frank! It’s not brain surgery. Or let an assistant coach help.

I hope and pray Frank is ok but this Covid protocol might have saved Vogel's job esp with the bad losses particularly the Spurs game. Playing at home vs a team with NO superstars, wow, Is Fizdale getting exposed or what?

[sonnyhill]

...I hope and pray Frank is ok but this Covid protocol might have saved Vogel's job esp with the bad losses particularly the Spurs game. Playing at home vs a team with NO superstars, wow, Is Fizdale getting exposed or what?

Neither Vogel nor Fizdale, nor anyone else, could coach this Laker roster to compete in today's NBA. The issue is how the roster has been constructed; the team is too old, does not have enough perimeter shooter, is slow in its defensive rotations; and the team now looks desperate.

[danfantastk32]

...I hope and pray Frank is ok but this Covid protocol might have saved Vogel's job esp with the bad losses particularly the Spurs game. Playing at home vs a team with NO superstars, wow, Is Fizdale getting exposed or what?

Neither Vogel nor Fizdale, nor anyone else, could coach this Laker roster to compete in today's NBA. The issue is how the roster has been constructed; the team is too old, does not have enough perimeter shooter, is slow in its defensive rotations; and the team now looks desperate.

I think it's incredibly likely that Vogel will be sacrificed before the season is over. The FO and Lebron felt too strongly that they had a title winner here. But I think your spot on. There's not a coach out there who can A) give everyone 5 years back, and B) get Westbrook to change his ways.

[Ball so hard]

...I hope and pray Frank is ok but this Covid protocol might have saved Vogel's job esp with the bad losses particularly the Spurs game. Playing at home vs a team with NO superstars, wow, Is Fizdale getting exposed or what?

Neither Vogel nor Fizdale, nor anyone else, could coach this Laker roster to compete in today's NBA. The issue is how the roster has been constructed; the team is too old, does not have enough perimeter shooter, is slow in its defensive rotations; and the team now looks desperate.

I’ve argued the same thing many times. You get rid of Vogel and you might as well clean house. Rob has to go. Following Rob’s dismissal you hire a competent GM and begin the rebuilding process. No one is off the table.

[sonnyhill]

...I hope and pray Frank is ok but this Covid protocol might have saved Vogel's job esp with the bad losses particularly the Spurs game. Playing at home vs a team with NO superstars, wow, Is Fizdale getting exposed or what?

Neither Vogel nor Fizdale, nor anyone else, could coach this Laker roster to compete in today's NBA. The issue is how the roster has been constructed; the team is too old, does not have enough perimeter shooter, is slow in its defensive rotations; and the team now looks desperate.

I’ve argued the same thing many times. You get rid of Vogel and you might as well clean house. Rob has to go. Following Rob’s dismissal you hire a competent GM and begin the rebuilding process. No one is off the table.

You are spot-on with the above post.

Jeanie needs to bring in someone to do an objective assessment of the Laker organization (not Kurt Rambis and his wife). Similar to when businesses falter and a management consulting firm (like a BCG, Bain, or McKinsey (the most prestigious firms in the management consulting industry)) is brought in to objectively address management, organization, operations, IT, corporate development, business growth and innovation, it would be very useful for Jeanie to bring in this type of objective analysis. There is no "magic bullet" or "unicorn hire" which will "fix" the Lakers when the organizational structure is ossified in a "1980s-2000s NBA model." What was state-of-the-art when Dr. Jerry-Jerry West were running the Lakers, Red Auerbach was running the Celtics, and R.C. Buford was-is running the Spurs, the NBA has evolved with much more sophistication, including the adoption of analytics in every aspect of how a team operates (business decisions; front office (cap management), coaching, player evaluations; finding, scouting, acquiring talent; G-league development, training and conditioning (diet and sleep, included, too).

For too long, the Lakers have relied on its being associated with being located in a "glamorous town" and providing off-court lifestyle for attracting star players. With Balmer making huge investments in the Clippers and the Warriors having set the bar on organizational and player development, Jeanie has to correct course or else the Lakers risk becoming the West Coast version of the Knicks.

Along with Phoenix, Utah, and Denver, teams which have a combination of both veteran and young talent; Houston and OKC, with their collection of young talent and potentially a pipeline of more to come in the future; the Lakers need to look beyond Vogel and Fizdale as their major challenge. Instead, the Lakers need to modernize how the franchise operates so that it can compete in today's 21st century NBA. The one reason I could see firing Vogel and Fizdale would be if the team has quit and does not play hard, and what happened in last night's game vs the Spurs, where LeBron went 1-on-5 and the other Lakers did not hustle into transition offense, showed a lack of hustle on the part of the Lakers (https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/lebron-james-had-to-play-1-on-5-against-the-spurs-because-the-other-lakers-players-didnt-care-enough-to-cross-halfcourt-to-help-him)

Again, while painful for many to read, both LeBron and AD are now only useful to the Lakers as trade assets. A bigger fear is that Jeanie and Rob delude themselves into thinking that an aging LeBron and timid AD will lead this roster to a deep run in the playoffs.

[euphorbus]

Interesting comment from Dave Fitzdale after the San Antonio loss: "When I tell you I was so impressed when I first came here to learn this defense. I’ve been in the NBA 22 years, something like that, I’m losing count, I was so impressed learning it. But it’s not easy and you’re tied together and it’s a string."

https://lakersnation.com/david-fizdale-explains-difficulty-of-teaching-new-players-lakers-complex-defensive-scheme/2021/12/24/

That scheme comes from Coach Vogel, but, as the article makes clear, it is hard to teach on the fly. A rookie like Austin Reaves picks it up quickly, but most new guys have other strategies drilled into them and have trouble adjusting right away. So the Lakers have spent a great deal of time in the film room this season, and it was starting to show...until Covid-19 swept half the team away, one wave at a time.

[tamaraw08]

Interesting comment from Dave Fitzdale after the San Antonio loss: "When I tell you I was so impressed when I first came here to learn this defense. I’ve been in the NBA 22 years, something like that, I’m losing count, I was so impressed learning it. But it’s not easy and you’re tied together and it’s a string."

https://lakersnation.com/david-fizdale-explains-difficulty-of-teaching-new-players-lakers-complex-defensive-scheme/2021/12/24/

That scheme comes from Coach Vogel, but, as the article makes clear, it is hard to teach on the fly. A rookie like Austin Reaves picks it up quickly, but most new guys have other strategies drilled into them and have trouble adjusting right away. So the Lakers have spent a great deal of time in the film room this season, and it was starting to show...until Covid-19 swept half the team away, one wave at a time.

It's advanced/complicated and very hard to learn and with 4-5 new players, maybe they should simplify and not not even use it for now bec it'll just lead to more confusion and frustration?

[LAKESHOW]

With this string concept, this was the importance of keeping it all together. Keeping the KCPs, Caruso etc together.
The chemistry is key. But Pelinka threw it all out the window, and it is difficult to recapture these schematics and concepts with a whole new crew.

[sonnyhill]

With this string concept, this was the importance of keeping it all together. Keeping the KCPs, Caruso etc together.
The chemistry is key. But Pelinka threw it all out the window, and it is difficult to recapture these schematics and concepts with a whole new crew.

The media had reported that Rob was about to acquire Buddy Hield from Sacramento and that it was LeBron and Klutch which made the deal to ship out KCP, Caruso, etc. and to bring in Westbrook, Anthony, etc.

With KCP, Caruso, LeBron, AD, and Hield, the lineup was optimally set to surround LeBron with shooters. That lineup could have competed; yet, the other "fly-in-the-ointment" is AD's aversion to playing center.

This whole season has been a comedic travesty of self-inflicted and selfish errors.