OT: Magnus Carlsen wins his 5th Chess World Championship - celebrates to Sixers theme song

[Jables]

So who is better - this dude or Bobby Fisher?

Tough to compare, in Chess (more so than even most sports) you build off of the greats before you, though the computer age slightly changes that. Bobby’s run was also much shorter than even Magnus (Bobby obviously exiled himself), but more dominant and he was probably farther ahead of the competition than Magnus. Kasparov has the best case for GOAT still.

I know nothing about chess but I remember watching some documentary and Kasparov won all his tournaments in a row for like 10 years, **** is nuts.

[bebopdeluxe]

If there is any question whether Carlsen is a Sixers fan, check out this tweet from a couple of months ago:

Read on Twitter

SAVAGE

[Fencer reregistered]

I wonder how many people actually know the different style of games played.

It’s classical, Magnus is some grim reaper god machine and that goes for every single greatest chess player before him.

Dude won blitz world and held all the major prizes in one season.

No one is on his level

Caruana aside, is there that much difference between the classical and speed chess rankings?

Not really in terms of ranking because the top are the top, but in terms of play? Massive difference. Classical to play at 99% accuracy over 130 moves in an 8 hr game is absurd after move 10 in game is where things got super interesting between the two. Nepo is awesome one of the best player math computations in the world.... Magnus is a machine lol

Oh, I agree that the style of play is very different. Even so, the skills you need to succeed at one or the other are quite similar.

Basically, the top two skillsets at any time control are:
-- Calculating accurately.
-- Judging positions even when you don't have enough time for accurate calculation.

Game speed basically shifts the mix between those two.

All that said -- Carlsen has claimed that latter is his particular strength (I think we even talked about that in this forum), which is consistent with being (even) stronger at fast chess than at slow.

[Wagonband]

If there is any question whether Carlsen is a Sixers fan, check out this tweet from a couple of months ago:

Read on Twitter

SAVAGE

Yeah he is. A lot of people dislike him because of it, but i personally love it. Trash talk just makes everything better. Didn't know it works for a different sport though. I guess it does given that i chuckled

[Fencer reregistered]

Plenty have an argument for chess GOAT at this point - Morphy, Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, Botvinnik, Fischer, Karpov, Kasparov, and of course Magnus himself.

Of that list only Morphy, Fischer, Karpov, Kasparov & Magnus have a legit case for GOAT.

Lasker dodged Capablanca for as long as humanly possible and then lost to him. Capablanca's opening theory was not very good (for a Champion of course). Alekhine, rating wise, was not as strong as other Champions. Botvinnik? I've never heard his name be entered into a GOAT conversation, was he even better than Tal?

There are decent arguments for Magnus, Karpov, Kasparov, Fischer and Morphy though. I'd rank them:

1. Kasparov
2. Magnus
3. Fischer
4. Morphy
5. Karpov

The Capablanca argument is that he went many years without losing ... pretty much anything.

The counterargument is that that period didn't cover all that many games. Travel was much slower in those days, and the stats are padded by WW1.

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=47544 covers it pretty well. I'm not sure ther was ever a period when Capablanca was a clear #1. After he took the championship form Lasker, Lasker outplaced him in some tournaments, the famed 1924 New York one not excepted. And Capablanca's loss of the championship to Alekhine came soon thereafter.

And by the way, Alekhine is one of the hardest to judge, largely because of his alcoholism, but also because of how vigorously he ducked any kind of Capablanca rematch.

[Fencer reregistered]

If there is any question whether Carlsen is a Sixers fan, check out this tweet from a couple of months ago:

Read on Twitter

SAVAGE

Well, that confirms that he's an NBA fan, which we knew anyway.

[UcanUwill]

I had no idea this forum was interested in chess or that 76ers had a theme song

[eminence]

The computers also love Capablanca more than pretty much anyone pre-Karpov.

[dhsilv2]

My point is if you are crazy and dismissive and not committed, you won’t be able to compete with the guys that are all in on chess, with great tools, are as talented as you AND love the game....he hated chess and said it all the time and thus didn’t spend as much time doing it....


Again I just don’t think someone that hates something is going to beat someone that’s committed to the game and is as talent and more committed. But can I prove it...naw



This is a situation where one guy has been dominant for an extended period of time and one that is more of a legend like a figure that didn’t do it long enough to be relevant outside of the US. Russian always clown Americans when our best actual player in my day was Seattle”s own Yasser Seirawans....enough talk - DM and we can settle this on chess.com right now....

The crazy old man and the young version who dominated for a short period are two rather different people ultimately.

I’m not disagreeing with you if you think if Fischer Prepped like Magnus and wasn’t bat crap crazy, that he could beat magnus...but he didn’t and he was crazy ...and thus it doesn’t matter. He stated he hated the game...these guys are playing chess for fun on twitch and on apps....playing 100000s more games with superior studying tools. Notice how magnus doesn’t even tell you what engines he is studying with? Dude is guarded as hell about his prep, coaches and tools cause this man is driven to dominate. Fischer and Magnus are not the same tier because of that. They not the same tier...

Fischer not Kasparov or Karpov because he didn’t accomplish it when he had the chance.

Fischer isn’t Magnus cause Magnus wants to be Jordan and I think he is. I’m not a chess nerd I swear...but I think this guy isn’t going to be threatened until one of these younger superGMs age into their prime and he ages out of his. There are some hot young prospects out there...but so far this guy is IT on all levels

Coming up to his peak Fischer studied every physical moment he possibly could study. That's how he reached the top, studying until he physically and mentally couldn't anymore.

[LesGrossman]

Peak Kasparov > Magnus

[LesGrossman]

If there is any question whether Carlsen is a Sixers fan, check out this tweet from a couple of months ago:

Read on Twitter

SAVAGE

Yeah he is. A lot of people dislike him because of it, but i personally love it. Trash talk just makes everything better. Didn't know it works for a different sport though. I guess it does given that i chuckled

He doesnt get to Aronian levels of trash talking though.

[BoatsNZones]

So who is better - this dude or Bobby Fisher?

Tough to compare, in Chess (more so than even most sports) you build off of the greats before you, though the computer age slightly changes that. Bobby’s run was also much shorter than even Magnus (Bobby obviously exiled himself), but more dominant and he was probably farther ahead of the competition than Magnus. Kasparov has the best case for GOAT still.

I know nothing about chess but I remember watching some documentary and Kasparov won all his tournaments in a row for like 10 years, **** is nuts.

He’s a monster and has the best combo of skill + longevity as his GOAT argument. Magnus himself would rate Kasparov above him, although Magnus may be even sharper and is more well rounded. In time it will very likely be him standing alone (I would not take a stance against him as is personally).

[Fencer reregistered]

Magnus is great, but Nepo's blunders were so ridiculously bad that even an amateur wouldn't have made them.

Yeah, but a lot of those blunders were from desperation. After Carlsen won his first (and then second) game, Nepo had to start playing unorthodox chess, if he wanted any chance to catch up.

By the final game, a rough basketball analogy would be you're down by 7 points with under 24 seconds to go.

A more accurate sports analogy would be from ice hockey -- pulling the goalie when you're 3 goals down.

[DCasey91]

The computers also love Capablanca more than pretty much anyone pre-Karpov.

Capa is probably the best ever end gamer and idea maker from middle/end before Magnus that’s why.

Chess machines plays super counterintuitive where it doesn’t make sense for us. They play the game back to front (end in mind 40 moves ahead starting from move numero one).

[PeteW]

Yep watched the whole thing live. Magnus is the Goat. Speaking of chess anyone got an account on chess.com wanna battle?

[DCasey91]

Magnus is great, but Nepo's blunders were so ridiculously bad that even an amateur wouldn't have made them.

Yeah, but a lot of those blunders were from desperation. After Carlsen won his first (and then second) game, Nepo had to start playing unorthodox chess, if he wanted any chance to catch up.

By the final game, a rough basketball analogy would be you're down by 7 points with under 24 seconds to go.

A more accurate sports analogy would be from ice hockey -- pulling the goalie when you're 3 goals down.

Yep correct, when Chess machines have it at a draw and Humans have it a draw are two completely different things.

Game 11 was familiar territory between both as a draw. I don’t believe Nepo didn’t see the huge error once he made the move

as he was down 3, massive blunder and he lost but the game was comfortably heading to where it was supposed to be.

[DCasey91]

Kasparov is probably the GOAT. He was an amazing attacking player who excelled in all areas of the game. Bobby Fischer’s peak was probably the highest of any chess player, but it was very brief. When Fischer was in his prime he was playing for the win against the best players — with the black pieces.

Magnus could get into the GOAT conversation if he stays Champion for long enough. His style is reminiscent of Karpov, maybe a bit more dynamic. His brilliance is taking draw-ish midgames and improving his position until he gets a winning endgame. He is perhaps the best endgame player of all time.

That’s why he’s the GOAT to me personally. End > Middle > Opening

Magnus is too superior on deeper murkier waters in the proper game.

[Fencer reregistered]

The computers also love Capablanca more than pretty much anyone pre-Karpov.

Do you mean in terms of the accuracy of his play? That wouldn't surprise me.

On the other hand, strategy has gotten a lot more complex than it used to be, and the most dramatic changes started during Capablanca's era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermodernism_(chess)

I also remember thinking during the Fischer/Spassky match that strategy had taken another leap. That one is harder to articulate, but I'll try if anybody cares.

[DCasey91]

Asterisk championship. He's overrated and will never be goat

explain

It’s probably a joke, but this is definitely an asterisk Championship for Magnus. His opponent, Nepo, played probably the worst Championship match of all time with a ton of blunders.

Classical time controls are when players have a huge amount of time to consider their moves before they make them, and blunders (essentially game-losing mistakes) are quite rare. Nepo made a number of blunders that essentially handed the tournament to Magnus.

No asterisk Game 6 was fantastic for Chess evolution. Which is always needed. Takes two to tango, they were playing strictly Chess for hours and hours which is awesome to watch. Game 5 Nepo was doing very very well just couldn’t capitalize enough

That game is forever etched in now. Longest game, mistakes from both sides. Great defense, God machine grinding victory from seemingly draw upon draw states.

Innovative invitations/ideas in the opening. Back and forth between draw or an actual winning position. Had it all

Magnus was strictly against long term world champs and waiting extra years hence the every 2 years now. Along with Machine learning help

Games like that happening are actually harder not easier to occur on frequency. Prep, mainline, variation etc etc. the amount of scouting is better and more found out then it’s ever been obviously.

[bebopdeluxe]

Peak Kasparov > Magnus

Ummm...how old is Magnus?

Sorry - my bad. I didn't know he was retiring.