2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3)

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Which three rookies impress you the most? (vote for up to 3)

Cade Cunningham
67
12%
Jalen Green
4
1%
Evan Mobley
163
29%
Scottie Barnes
152
27%
Jalen Suggs
8
1%
Josh Giddey
53
10%
Franz Wagner
68
12%
Chris Duarte
10
2%
Alperen Sengun
21
4%
Other
11
2%
 
Total votes: 557

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#881 » by bkseven » Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:05 pm

CptCrunch wrote:
MrBigShot wrote:
CptCrunch wrote:
Cade's scoring is on a huge upswing. Turnover is still a huge issue.

A game with 7 turnover is not efficient. A single turnover basically results in a net ~2.12 pt swing on average (~1.06 point on offense based on league average 106 offensive efficiency, 1.06 the other way on average). It is the single most costly mistake in basketball.

My official position is still that Cade is not a point forward, just a scoring shooting guard. Same positions since pre-draft.


Guy who more or less Cade a bust like 10 games in maybe realizing you can't assess how good a player will be after a few weeks, shocker. The term efficiency in basketball is jargon for how well a player utilizes their shot opportunities to score, i.e. shooting splits and TS%. It has nothing to do with turnovers. Simultaneously, in the colloquial sense of the word efficient, a turnover is not efficient way to use a possession.

You think he is just a scoring guard because you put too much emphasis on turnovers in assessing a rookie's ability as a ball handler/playmaker and don't actually watch him play. Cade has been our primary ball handler and playmaker for a while now. The playmaking ability, handle, ability to break down the defense off the dribble, court vision ect... is there. Turnovers are a huge issue for him right now but he's a rookie learning the ropes. He's got plenty of time to tighten up his handle and address that weakness.


Try reading a bit more next time. Take off the blinders and read my full argument. I never insinuated that Cade was a bust after 10 games. I have always insinuated (here and NBA-draft forum pre-draft) that Mobley was the best player this year with Cade being the #4 behind Mobley, Barnes and Suggs (wrong on #3 so far).

I have challenged the notation that Cade is a point forward ala Luka. He was marketed by the media as a generational point forward will one be a drop in on day and and elevate a team to the forefront of offensive efficiency day one. This has and will always be an laughable assertion :lol:. I'll give you a refresher, the gist of the argument is that if Cade isn't a point forward, he isn't a #1 pick, deserving #3-6 pick, sure.


Lol so obsessed. What did he do to you buddy
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#882 » by orlando_joe » Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:12 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:

Franz last 7 games- 19ppg 52%FG 50%3pt 5reb 4ast 1.4stls Talk about efficiency!

How is he not in everyone's top 2 right now?

20 pts on both nights of back to back..getting better..no rookie wall yet
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#883 » by OrlMagic05 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:54 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:

Franz last 7 games- 19ppg 52%FG 50%3pt 5reb 4ast 1.4stls Talk about efficiency!

How is he not in everyone's top 2 right now?

20 pts on both nights of back to back..getting better..no rookie wall yet


I always thought Hedo was a good comparison for Franz, but right now he has the potential to blow that comparison out of the water if he continues with this progression. The fact that he is shooting 59% from 3 his last 6 games is crazy. He rarely forces anything and doesnt rely on athleticism (even though he is pretty athletic) to score.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#884 » by OrlMagic05 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:01 pm

Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#885 » by zshawn10 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:04 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#886 » by Bruin » Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:27 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.

Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games

Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year

In the last 10 games:
14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#887 » by Bruin » Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:29 pm

zshawn10 wrote:
Read on Twitter

That’s such an odd thing to say. From what Cade has shown so far, I don’t see any way you can say he’s not a guy you can build around. He’s looked great apart from that slow start, which is honestly nbd
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#888 » by OkcSinceSGA » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:14 pm

Read on Twitter


The Clippers Have Found Another Second-Round Steal
Brandon “BJ” Boston Jr. fell to the no. 51 pick following a disappointing freshman season at Kentucky, but now with the Clippers, he’s looking more like the elite high school recruit that some scouts thought would end up a top-five pick.

He averaged 21 points and shot 50 percent from 3 in six G League games before returning to the Clippers and becoming a rotation regular. In NBA games in which he plays at least 20 minutes, he’s averaging 13 points and doing all the same things he did at lower levels. Boston can drain jumpers off the dribble:

At 6-foot-6, he has size and slippery ballhandling skills to get into his jumpers. Consistency was once an issue, but his mechanics and shot selection have been steady. He’s long flashed the ability to be a playmaker, and now he’s learning how to draw the defense before firing on-target passes to teammates.

It’s early, but you rarely see a late second-round pick who just turned 20 years old look this good after two seasons, let alone two months. From Shai Gilgeous-Alexander in the lottery to Terance Mann and Boston in the second round, the Clippers are building a strong track record in the draft. Jerome Robinson is their only recent whiff.

With SGA and future picks all flipped for Paul George, Boston gives the Clippers a young player of value that could come into play for trades. But he’ll likely end up a keeper for the Clippers. Maintaining some youth, especially with Kawhi Leonard aging and injury prone, gives them roster balance and upside.
“This kid reminds me of a 6-6 Chris Paul. He wants to win everything.”

Olin Simplis- SGA’s trainer.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#889 » by NoBias » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:47 pm

PrinceAli wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.

Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games

Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year

In the last 10 games:
14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg


Peoples tales are hilarious. Barnes is ROY atm. He’ll be second after Cade in votes by end of the year.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#890 » by OrlMagic05 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:16 pm

PrinceAli wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.

Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games

Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year

In the last 10 games:
14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg


How are those numbers better than the other 3 over the past 10 games?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#891 » by OrlMagic05 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:20 pm

NoBias wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.

Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games

Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year

In the last 10 games:
14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg


Peoples tales are hilarious. Barnes is ROY atm. He’ll be second after Cade in votes by end of the year.


Barnes had a HUGE lead to start the season, and while his last 10 games are still very impressive, its still not better than Cade, Franz, & Mobley over the last month. Its still a very close 4 player race, but lets not make it seem like Barnes is ROY atm because that race is now wide open to any of the four mentioned.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#892 » by Capn'O » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:21 pm

HardenGoat wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:Just watched those Sengun highlights against MIL. That was pure basketball poetry. What a game.

HOU got such a steal.


2022 first round draft pick to Oklahoma City
Detroit's 1st round pick to Oklahoma City (via Houston) protected for selections 1-16 in 2022, 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027; if Detroit has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Oklahoma City by 2027, then Detroit will instead convey its 2027 2nd round pick to Oklahoma City

2024 first round draft pick from Houston
Houston's 2024 1st round pick to Oklahoma City protected for selections 1-4; if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Houston will instead convey its 2024 2nd round pick and 2025 2nd round pick to Oklahoma City

OKC traded picks, problem here is the potential for the picks to become 3 second rounders. That's a big risk, and an obvious steal for Houston.


And, with all that said, I still can't believe the Spurs didn't take him.

Still very early on Primo but Sengun practically has a spur tattooed on his head with his play style.
BAF Clippers:
UNDER CONSTRUCTION

:beer:
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#893 » by OrlMagic05 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:25 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.

Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games

Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year

In the last 10 games:
14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg


How are those numbers better than the other 3 over the past 10 games?


Also over his last 10 games he is shooting 36.5% from 3, not 40.5% which is still good.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#894 » by Merc_Porto » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:29 pm

NoBias wrote:Peoples tales are hilarious. Barnes is ROY atm. He’ll be second after Cade in votes by end of the year.


Barnes is what? Come on man.
Are you not forgetting someone who actually was the Rookie of the month in November in the East and will probably be the rookie of the month for December as well?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#895 » by Bruin » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:31 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.

Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games

Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year

In the last 10 games:
14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg


How are those numbers better than the other 3 over the past 10 games?

How’s it worse?

Franz:
17.6 ppg, 49.6 FG%, 46.7 3P%, 5.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.4 bpg, 1.7 tov

Cade:
17.6 ppg, 41.7 FG%, 40.6 3PT%, 6.1 rpg, 4.5apg, 1.5 spg, 0.6 bpg, 4.6 tov

Mobley:
12.9 ppg, 46 FG%, 37.5 3P%, 9.2 rpg, 2.4 apg, 0.7 spg, 2.4 bpg, 1.3 tov

Scottie:
14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P%, 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg, 1.6 tov

Over the past 10 games, Cade and Franz have scored more, but also taken more shots. Franz has taken 1.5 more shots than Scottie (2.6 more than Mobley. Cade has taken 3.4 more shots than Scottie (4.5 more than Mobley). Franz has been extremely efficient recently which is nice, but the others have been efficient as well

Cade has been a turnover machine so far

Both Mobley and Scottie have done more defensively than Cade and Franz.

And in the past 10 games, Cade has an 0-10 record, Franz has a 1-9 record, Scottie has a 5-5 record, Mobley 7-2. With a race where several rookies are performing very well, record also becomes a factor

It’s pretty clear that Mobley is first right now, with Scottie 2nd. Followed by Franz and Cade

And I’m not trying to take away from your rookie, Franz has been tremendous as well. But you’re straight up saying that Barnes has “fallen to earth” which couldn’t be any more wrong
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#896 » by Bruin » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:32 pm

OrlMagic05 wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games

Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year

In the last 10 games:
14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg


How are those numbers better than the other 3 over the past 10 games?


Also over his last 10 games he is shooting 36.5% from 3, not 40.5% which is still good.

Uhm, no. Check again

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#897 » by HotelVitale » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:48 pm

PrinceAli wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.

Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games. Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year
In the last 10 games: 14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg

Just looking at the monthly splits, his scoring and efficiency dropped a bunch from October to November--18ppg on 59% TS to 14ppg on 51% TS--while his assists jumped, and recently in the 4 games in December the efficiency and 3pt attempts have increased a little bit but nothing else has. He's stabilized into a roughly 14/8/3 stat line since that first month (which was only 7 games).

The numbers are all really sweet for a rookie so not meant as a knock on him. Just giving some more grounding for whether or not he's 'fallen back.'
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#898 » by Bruin » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:52 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:
OrlMagic05 wrote:Since mid November I'd rank rookies as follows
1.Cade- Some really good games as of late.
2.Franz- See my post above about Franz
3. Mobley- Defensively has been very good
4. Barnes- Amazing start to the season, but has fallen to earth a bit. Still has had some good games as of late.

Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games. Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year
In the last 10 games: 14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg

Just looking at the monthly splits, his scoring and efficiency dropped a bunch from October to November--18ppg on 59% TS to 14ppg on 51% TS--while his assists jumped, and recently in the 4 games in December the efficiency and 3pt attempts have increased a little bit but nothing else has. He's stabilized into a roughly 14/8/3 stat line since that first month.

The numbers are all really sweet for a rookie so not meant as a knock on him. Just giving some more grounding for whether or not he's 'fallen back.'

He’s dropped 4 ppg but he’s also taking 2 less shots per game cause Siakam is back. I don’t really see that as a fall off. And the only reason his TS has decreased a bit is cause he’s taking a lot more 3s now. Otherwise his efficiency is pretty damn good for a guy who gets most of his baskets unassisted (unlike most of the other rookies)
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#899 » by K_chile22 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:23 pm

This is just from a stat SQL database someone made by scrapping NBA.com stats, so take this with a grain of salt, but according to that, no player in their age 21 or younger season has averaged 18 Points, 9 Rebounds and 5 Assists per 36.

Alperen Sengun is currently doing that at 19. We'll see if it holds after he inevitably takes on more and more responsibility/minutes, but impressive none the less
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 3) 

Post#900 » by HotelVitale » Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:27 pm

PrinceAli wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
PrinceAli wrote:Uh how has Barnes fallen to earth? In fact he’s getting better every game. Expanding his range and shooting from deep, improving his assist numbers. figuring things out defensively (not getting lost in rotations of our whack defense) and has been tremendous on that end in the last few games. Everything else from rebounding to points has been steady from the very start of the year
In the last 10 games: 14 ppg, 45.9 FG%, 40.5 3P% (3.7 attempts per game), 8.6 rpg, 3.7 APG, 1.5 spg, 1.3 bpg

Just looking at the monthly splits, his scoring and efficiency dropped a bunch from October to November--18ppg on 59% TS to 14ppg on 51% TS--while his assists jumped, and recently in the 4 games in December the efficiency and 3pt attempts have increased a little bit but nothing else has. He's stabilized into a roughly 14/8/3 stat line since that first month.

The numbers are all really sweet for a rookie so not meant as a knock on him. Just giving some more grounding for whether or not he's 'fallen back.'

He’s dropped 4 ppg but he’s also taking 2 less shots per game cause Siakam is back. I don’t really see that as a fall off. And the only reason his TS has decreased a bit is cause he’s taking a lot more 3s now. Otherwise his efficiency is pretty damn good for a guy who gets most of his baskets unassisted (unlike most of the other rookies)


Well the efficiency last month wasn't good any way you cut it, and it didn't have anything to do with increased 3pt shots, but it's totally fine for a rookie. Overall he's just a few points behind league average and even if he ends up where he's at I don't think there's anything to worry about.

The only thing I'd point to for him is the fact that he's playing gigantic minutes. That's a good thing since he's playing a meaningful role on a non-tanking team, but it also means his raw numbers are inflated relative to other rooks. He's #6 in minutes per game in the entire league--and that's only increasing with time--so he gets a lot more minutes to produce than others do.

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