Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[old school 34]

A couple of ideas that I've started considering more as we evaluate what's the best next move for the team to take jump:

1. Only give up firsts if it gives me player that guarantees me top 6 (out of playin) or rookie type guy that I feel good about (for me that be a guy like Reddish). No firsts for vet type that we would be better but still not top 6 good.

2. Becoming more open to moving Naz than ever before....not saying we have to by no means & he continues to grow....just began to think more & more about the value of just resetting that say rookie scale spot (or Hinkie deal) w/ Nathan Knight....if Knight had those minutes how much less would we get out of that spot? If the answer is pretty minimal & the coaching staff doesn't feel confident enough to play Naz/KAT lineups for any significant minutes....then we'd be wise to move him than pay the higher salary after this year. And before I'm hammered, I'm not saying get smaller &/or have less bigs....I agree with most that we need to add another big to the roster.

3. Where is Nikola Mirotic &/or contract status? If we couldn't get say a starting level 4....a strong shooter/rebounder type off the bench behind Vando works for me if price can be reasonable ....just trying to think that off the radar type of add (ie--what Bucks got out of Portis...where he just kind of finds that role & fits).

Lol...kind of ironic that Mirotic & Portis are two of my goal 4 adds...as weren't they the two that got into a significant fight with Bulls?

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[thinktank]

I think we should try a low risk move like Bagley.

[shrink]

3. Where is Nikola Mirotic &/or contract status?

Good post. I just wanted to mention Mirotic quit the NBA because he was unhappy he didn’t have a bigger role. He turned down a nice contract to do it (3 for $45), so I doubt he’d come back, especially here. I agree with you that he would have been a nice acquisition.

[winforlose]

A couple of ideas that I've started considering more as we evaluate what's the best next move for the team to take jump:

1. Only give up firsts if it gives me player that guarantees me top 6 (out of playin) or rookie type guy that I feel good about (for me that be a guy like Reddish). No firsts for vet type that we would be better but still not top 6 good.

2. Becoming more open to moving Naz than ever before....not saying we have to by no means & he continues to grow....just began to think more & more about the value of just resetting that say rookie scale spot (or Hinkie deal) w/ Nathan Knight....if Knight had those minutes how much less would we get out of that spot? If the answer is pretty minimal & the coaching staff doesn't feel confident enough to play Naz/KAT lineups for any significant minutes....then we'd be wise to move him than pay the higher salary after this year. And before I'm hammered, I'm not saying get smaller &/or have less bigs....I agree with most that we need to add another big to the roster.

3. Where is Nikola Mirotic &/or contract status? If we couldn't get say a starting level 4....a strong shooter/rebounder type off the bench behind Vando works for me if price can be reasonable ....just trying to think that off the radar type of add (ie--what Bucks got out of Portis...where he just kind of finds that role & fits).

Lol...kind of ironic that Mirotic & Portis are two of my goal 4 adds...as weren't they the two that got into a significant fight with Bulls?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Naz is a better 3 point shooter, better off the dribble, more proven, and is developing a bit of a shot blocking persona. Knight is a relative unknown with a history of getting destroyed by 3rd tier and non NBA talent. We need to add size not get weaker and more shallow at the C.

[winforlose]

I brought this up as a joke in the game thread, but the more I think about the more it makes some sense. Assuming AD isn’t injured long term, The wolves get AD for Beasley, Prince, MCD, and a top 6 protected first.

Why the Lakers do it. Beasley is having a down year but still spaces the floor and is a scoring threat. Prince is expiring. MCD is a stellar defender who is gaining confidence in his shot. In a couple of years MCD could be a top 3 and D in the league. Also having a young rookie scale player on the oldest team in the league isn’t the worst idea.

Wolves downsides. The money is bad for us. 3 for 1 shreds our depth. AD is more a 4 than 5 and that doesn’t really let Towns transition down to 4. AD is also somewhat prone to missing time. Lastly, his 3 point shooting is declining significantly down over 15% from its peak.

Why the Wolves should do this. AD and KAT on the floor together are very hard to guard. AD is also insurance against losing the season if KAT gets hurt. AD is a solid rebounder and his defensive strengths align well with our scheme. AD is also older and in theory more consistent.

The lineup end of game could be Dlo, Ant, V8, AD, and KAT. Beverly can slot in for either V8 or Dlo as needed and you have everything you need to close games. Would love feedback.

Edit to add: The follow up move is trade either nothing or a 2nd to Boston for Enes Kanter. They barley use him and he could get minutes as backup 5. Move Naz to the 4 and now you don’t miss MCD as much. At that point we either convert Knight to a Naz type deal or go out and sign IT. He is a basically a better shooting JMAC. Trade JMAC for a stick a gum to anyone desperate for a ball handler or just waive him (or bury him at the end of the bench.)

[theGreatRC]

ADisney is made of glass, no thanks.

[winforlose]

ADisney is made of glass, no thanks.

I agree it is an issue. But, he is a legit big and a great fit with KAT. Moreover, unlike Wood and Turner he is under team control for another 3 years after this one (last year is player option, but I doubt he declines it.)

[minimus]

Combining latest rumors and news. First, HOU waved Hoise Jr., second, MIN, SAC, HOU and PHI are actively discussing Simmons trade, and lastly Simmons wants to play in California.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

MIN IN: Theis
MIN OUT: Prince
Why for MIN: create some depth behind KAT and Reid. Theis ist one of the most hardworking veterans, blue collar, high IQ bigs in NBA. If not use Theis contract in future trades

PHI IN: Fox, Barnes, Prince, TT
PHI OUT: Simmons, Harris, Maxey
Why for PHI: Get starting PG and PF, acquire 20 mil expiring contracts.

SAC IN: Simmons, Harris, Maxey
SAC OUT: Fox, Barnes, TT, Bagley
Why for SAC: reset roster.


HOU IN: Bagley
HOU OUT: Theis
Why for HOU: acquire talented young player


KAT/Reid/Theis
Vando/Theis/Layman
Edwards/MCD/Okogie
Beverly/Beasley/Bolmaro
DLo/Nowell/JMac

It is not sexiest trade idea, but I like our depth during COVID outages, also Theis+Beasley contract plus picks gives us some room to trade next off-season. Also I would love to use created cap space to either rework Knight deal into Hinkie deal, or sign someone like House Jr (based on talent, not sure about offcourt issues such as bubble story)

[moss_is_1]

I think I'd want a slight incentive to take Theis. He's a solid player, but he just signed a 4 year 36m contract(last year a team option).

[winforlose]

Theis would be good, but Prince is the only large moveable contract we have besides Beasley. If we make that deal our hands are tied and we cannot get Turner, Wood, Davis, Collins, or any game changing big. I love what V8 is becoming but he is a natural 3 not a 4. MCD is also a natural 3. Naz and KAT are natural 4s and we have no natural 5s. We need size and we need insurance against KAT rolling an ankle and missing a month. Theis might make the losses closer, but every game without KAT is an odds on loss. We need a player with real oomph that can turn the tide, not a small move around the edges. Give them Layman, JO and a 2nd for Theis.

[minimus]

Theis would be good, but Prince is the only large moveable contract we have besides Beasley. If we make that deal our hands are tied and we cannot get Turner, Wood, Davis, Collins, or any game changing big. I love what V8 is becoming but he is a natural 3 not a 4. MCD is also a natural 3. Naz and KAT are natural 4s and we have no natural 5s. We need size and we need insurance against KAT rolling an ankle and missing a month. Theis might make the losses closer, but every game without KAT is an odds on loss. We need a player with real oomph that can turn the tide, not a small move around the edges. Give them Layman, JO and a 2nd for Theis.

You are too concerned about positions. At the end of the day it is talent, chemistry and effort that win games. Although it might help against certain matchups, but simply putting Towns at four, V8 at 3 won't solve any our issues. It is not basketball solution. With V8 in starting lineup we have not been outrebounded as we were before. But we still are not shooting well, we commit too many silly fouls and TOs. And most importantly, we don't have depth: behind Vando only MCD is playble, McLaughlin has been bad, so we don't have anyone behind DLo. We need to address these issues if we want any consistency, otherwise we will have losing and winning streaks all season long.

[winforlose]

Theis would be good, but Prince is the only large moveable contract we have besides Beasley. If we make that deal our hands are tied and we cannot get Turner, Wood, Davis, Collins, or any game changing big. I love what V8 is becoming but he is a natural 3 not a 4. MCD is also a natural 3. Naz and KAT are natural 4s and we have no natural 5s. We need size and we need insurance against KAT rolling an ankle and missing a month. Theis might make the losses closer, but every game without KAT is an odds on loss. We need a player with real oomph that can turn the tide, not a small move around the edges. Give them Layman, JO and a 2nd for Theis.

You are too concerned about positions. At the end of the day it is talent, chemistry and effort that win games. Although it might help against certain matchups, but simply putting Towns at four, V8 at 3 won't solve any our issues. It is not basketball solution. With V8 in starting lineup we have not been outrebounded as we were before. But we still are not shooting well, we commit too many silly fouls and TOs. And most importantly, we don't have depth: behind Vando only MCD is playble, McLaughlin has been bad, so we don't have anyone behind DLo. We need to address these issues if we want any consistency, otherwise we will have losing and winning streaks all season long.

On the contrary, positions are the best way to express defensive concept. The center is the center of the defense. KAT wants to be on the permitter. He lacks the strength and size to properly defend the paint against the true bigs in the league. Naz is the same way. Look how Harrell abused us. Vando lacked the weight needed to control him in the post and KAT was often elsewhere. Vando is not big enough to guard opposing PFs in the paint. His speed and length make him disruptive for sure, but he lacks the height and weight to be KAT’s partner. That said Vando’s rebounding is far more valuable than simple shooting. His defense is essential for our scheme and he is legitimately the 3rd or fourth most important Timberwolf with KAT as our MVP and some mix of Dlo, Ant, and V8 in 2-4. He needs to be on the floor, which is why we need another scoring big to make up for his lack of offense.

[minimus]

Theis would be good, but Prince is the only large moveable contract we have besides Beasley. If we make that deal our hands are tied and we cannot get Turner, Wood, Davis, Collins, or any game changing big. I love what V8 is becoming but he is a natural 3 not a 4. MCD is also a natural 3. Naz and KAT are natural 4s and we have no natural 5s. We need size and we need insurance against KAT rolling an ankle and missing a month. Theis might make the losses closer, but every game without KAT is an odds on loss. We need a player with real oomph that can turn the tide, not a small move around the edges. Give them Layman, JO and a 2nd for Theis.

You are too concerned about positions. At the end of the day it is talent, chemistry and effort that win games. Although it might help against certain matchups, but simply putting Towns at four, V8 at 3 won't solve any our issues. It is not basketball solution. With V8 in starting lineup we have not been outrebounded as we were before. But we still are not shooting well, we commit too many silly fouls and TOs. And most importantly, we don't have depth: behind Vando only MCD is playble, McLaughlin has been bad, so we don't have anyone behind DLo. We need to address these issues if we want any consistency, otherwise we will have losing and winning streaks all season long.

On the contrary, positions are the best way to express defensive concept. The center is the center of the defense. KAT wants to be on the permitter. He lacks the strength and size to properly defend the paint against the true bigs in the league. Naz is the same way. Look how Harrell abused us. Vando lacked the weight needed to control him in the post and KAT was often elsewhere. Vando is not big enough to guard opposing PFs in the paint. His speed and length make him disruptive for sure, but he lacks the height and weight to be KAT’s partner. That said Vando’s rebounding is far more valuable than simple shooting. His defense is essential for our scheme and he is legitimately the 3rd or fourth most important Timberwolf with KAT as our MVP and some mix of Dlo, Ant, and V8 in 2-4. He needs to be on the floor, which is why we need another scoring big to make up for his lack of offense.

Again, your understanding of position doesn't reflect whole complexity of basketball. I will give one example. Watch this video:

Watch on YouTube

The most interesting part here is that PHO plays the most conservative defensive scheme. so Aytons first reaction is to go under screen.

But against GSW CP3 indicated Ayton to play on level on the screen to prevent Curry from scoring from 3pt. So here the center of defense is CP3, Ayton has only "implemented" right defensive play. Surprisingly, DLo has been playing as the defensive coordinator for us. It is just a role, not a specific position. So he is a communicator in defense.

Read on Twitter

Nowadays, bigs have to play more on perimeter, so saying that defense must start from C position is not accurate. Ten years ago, someone such as KG was taller than other players and played most of the time around the rim, so he could observe situation in defense and coordinate teammates. Nowadays, bigs are playing blitz, show on perimeter, not only drop or ice. Also it is very important to understand that Towns has always been good at guarding traditional bigs in the low post, his main problem is not size or strength, his main problem is lack of discipline which leads to unnecessary fouls, and positioning in defense which leads to situations where he is completely out of the play, after missing defensive rotation or not using his body at right angle to contain opponent or biting on fake. Same with V8, it is not like Harrell was scoring everything in low post against us. He was scoring in PnR situations, where low man was late, on drop off assists etc.

Watch on YouTube

Harrell scored once in low post against V8, all other points were results of Ant/V8 missing rotation, not tagging rolling Harrell. And watch how Bolmaro defended Harrell: timely rotation, arms straight up, squared, outside of restricted area. If Ant/V8 had such technique/IQ we could stop Harrell easily.


One more interesting stats:

Read on Twitter

Our defensive scheme emphasise agressive PoA defense and timely rotations, which requires defensive discipline and efforts from low man. As the stats above shows effort is good. Now we need to learn how not to foul and how to execute every possession.

[mplsfonz23]

I brought this up as a joke in the game thread, but the more I think about the more it makes some sense. Assuming AD isn’t injured long term, The wolves get AD for Beasley, Prince, MCD, and a top 6 protected first.

)

Yes.....!!! That is a joke.

[winforlose]

I brought this up as a joke in the game thread, but the more I think about the more it makes some sense. Assuming AD isn’t injured long term, The wolves get AD for Beasley, Prince, MCD, and a top 6 protected first.

)

Yes.....!!! That is a joke.

Gonna be honest, not quite sure what you are trying to convey. Are you saying they won’t do it, we won’t do it, or both? Also kinda moot now that he has an MCL sprain and gonna be gone for 4-6 weeks.

[mplsfonz23]

I brought this up as a joke in the game thread, but the more I think about the more it makes some sense. Assuming AD isn’t injured long term, The wolves get AD for Beasley, Prince, MCD, and a top 6 protected first.

)

Yes.....!!! That is a joke.

Gonna be honest, not quite sure what you are trying to convey. Are you saying they won’t do it, we won’t do it, or both? Also kinda moot now that he has an MCL sprain and gonna be gone for 4-6 weeks.

Healthy or not. AD will cost WAY more than that. But hey, if they hire Khan????? Maybe.

[winforlose]

You are too concerned about positions. At the end of the day it is talent, chemistry and effort that win games. Although it might help against certain matchups, but simply putting Towns at four, V8 at 3 won't solve any our issues. It is not basketball solution. With V8 in starting lineup we have not been outrebounded as we were before. But we still are not shooting well, we commit too many silly fouls and TOs. And most importantly, we don't have depth: behind Vando only MCD is playble, McLaughlin has been bad, so we don't have anyone behind DLo. We need to address these issues if we want any consistency, otherwise we will have losing and winning streaks all season long.

On the contrary, positions are the best way to express defensive concept. The center is the center of the defense. KAT wants to be on the permitter. He lacks the strength and size to properly defend the paint against the true bigs in the league. Naz is the same way. Look how Harrell abused us. Vando lacked the weight needed to control him in the post and KAT was often elsewhere. Vando is not big enough to guard opposing PFs in the paint. His speed and length make him disruptive for sure, but he lacks the height and weight to be KAT’s partner. That said Vando’s rebounding is far more valuable than simple shooting. His defense is essential for our scheme and he is legitimately the 3rd or fourth most important Timberwolf with KAT as our MVP and some mix of Dlo, Ant, and V8 in 2-4. He needs to be on the floor, which is why we need another scoring big to make up for his lack of offense.

Again, your understanding of position doesn't reflect whole complexity of basketball. I will give one example. Watch this video:

Watch on YouTube

The most interesting part here is that PHO plays the most conservative defensive scheme. so Aytons first reaction is to go under screen.

But against GSW CP3 indicated Ayton to play on level on the screen to prevent Curry from scoring from 3pt. So here the center of defense is CP3, Ayton has only "implemented" right defensive play. Surprisingly, DLo has been playing as the defensive coordinator for us. It is just a role, not a specific position. So he is a communicator in defense.

Read on Twitter

Nowadays, bigs have to play more on perimeter, so saying that defense must start from C position is not accurate. Ten years ago, someone such as KG was taller than other players and played most of the time around the rim, so he could observe situation in defense and coordinate teammates. Nowadays, bigs are playing blitz, show on perimeter, not only drop or ice. Also it is very important to understand that Towns has always been good at guarding traditional bigs in the low post, his main problem is not size or strength, his main problem is lack of discipline which leads to unnecessary fouls, and positioning in defense which leads to situations where he is completely out of the play, after missing defensive rotation or not using his body at right angle to contain opponent or biting on fake. Same with V8, it is not like Harrell was scoring everything in low post against us. He was scoring in PnR situations, where low man was late, on drop off assists etc.

Watch on YouTube

Harrell scored once in low post against V8, all other points were results of Ant/V8 missing rotation, not tagging rolling Harrell. And watch how Bolmaro defended Harrell: timely rotation, arms straight up, squared, outside of restricted area. If Ant/V8 had such technique/IQ we could stop Harrell easily.


One more interesting stats:

Read on Twitter

Our defensive scheme emphasise agressive PoA defense and timely rotations, which requires defensive discipline and efforts from low man. As the stats above shows effort is good. Now we need to learn how not to foul and how to execute every possession.

I get what your saying and I do see the merit, but I think you are misunderstanding why we lost the games we did and why we are doomed without adding more size. Offensively opposing teams have learned that when KAT switches on the perimeter and doesn’t switch back, the big rolls to the basket which collapses our defense. If the double is slow the big scores easily in the paint (sometimes even when the double isn’t slow,) if the double is timely then the kick out leads to open corner 3s or another swing for an open 3 from any sweet spot their shooters want. With another big who can guard the paint a modified zone works much better (or current zone has some issues but is also sometimes effective.) Also, with another big dunkers spot traps like Harrell pulled on us don’t work as well either. A mobile big can still run the switching scheme but can also defend the paint when KAT is on the perimeter.

On Defense against the Wolves the usual method is send a PF to guard Towns, have the C guard the lane, and leave V8 alone except in the paint or low box. With another big the opposing C cannot simply guard V8 because then a SF must guard our other big. The new big opens the lane for Ant and Dlo while also making it harder to double KAT and gives V8 a mismatch when he catches in the post or the paint.

[moss_is_1]

If anything, I'd like to try and get a good veteran big and a wing. I like us playing Nowell more, would be nice to have a veteran PG since Dlo and Beverly miss a lot of games and Mclaughlin/Bolmaro have been pretty uninspiring.

Naz has been really frustrating. If he isnt scoring hes a huge negative. Hasn't been good on defense, pretty bad on the boards, turning the ball over, and complaining to officials. Wonder what we could get on the market for a package with him and fillers since he's going to be needing a new contract soon.

[minimus]

I get what your saying and I do see the merit, but I think you are misunderstanding why we lost the games we did and why we are doomed without adding more size. Offensively opposing teams have learned that when KAT switches on the perimeter and doesn’t switch back, the big rolls to the basket which collapses our defense. If the double is slow the big scores easily in the paint (sometimes even when the double isn’t slow,) if the double is timely then the kick out leads to open corner 3s or another swing for an open 3 from any sweet spot their shooters want. With another big who can guard the paint a modified zone works much better (or current zone has some issues but is also sometimes effective.) Also, with another big dunkers spot traps like Harrell pulled on us don’t work as well either. A mobile big can still run the switching scheme but can also defend the paint when KAT is on the perimeter.

On Defense against the Wolves the usual method is send a PF to guard Towns, have the C guard the lane, and leave V8 alone except in the paint or low box. With another big the opposing C cannot simply guard V8 because then a SF must guard our other big. The new big opens the lane for Ant and Dlo while also making it harder to double KAT and gives V8 a mismatch when he catches in the post or the paint.

I see the point of adding someone like Turner, but I don't see how putting Towns and V8 at PF/SF would solve our offensive issues. We are one of the worst NBA teams in half court offence, slightly better than DET and HOU. While on paper Turner is a stretch 5, it does not mean that he will be able to impact our offence enough to provide that space, because usually bigs have slower release, slower footwork, which means that they are slower in catch and shoot situation. We are spoiled because Towns is able to shoot like a guard: catch and shoot, stepback 3s, running off screens, but he is an exception not a rule. So many times even if a big can shoot a three, the opponent defense just dare him to shoot. The whole point of size in current NBA is transforming, because it is equally important to be able to defend in space, on perimeter, in transition etc. Watch this video:

Watch on YouTube

Based on your logic GSW should have put Wiseman (or another 7footer) at C, Green at PF. However, they are able to implement elite defense without true bigs. Ironically, they use a guy such as 6'3 Payton II instead of 7'1 Wiseman to compliment their defensive core. Is not it genius? That's what I call a basketball solution.

Lastly, I am not against Turner, but we have limited resources to improve our roster. If Turner is available for one FRP and expiring, I would do it. But if you ask me, I think the main problem of our current roster is versatility and depth, both in defense and offence. We rely hard on Vando and MCD to be that low man, but I would add third big wing, who can rotate and help in defence, while providing some scoring in offence.

[old school 34]

I get what your saying and I do see the merit, but I think you are misunderstanding why we lost the games we did and why we are doomed without adding more size. Offensively opposing teams have learned that when KAT switches on the perimeter and doesn’t switch back, the big rolls to the basket which collapses our defense. If the double is slow the big scores easily in the paint (sometimes even when the double isn’t slow,) if the double is timely then the kick out leads to open corner 3s or another swing for an open 3 from any sweet spot their shooters want. With another big who can guard the paint a modified zone works much better (or current zone has some issues but is also sometimes effective.) Also, with another big dunkers spot traps like Harrell pulled on us don’t work as well either. A mobile big can still run the switching scheme but can also defend the paint when KAT is on the perimeter.

On Defense against the Wolves the usual method is send a PF to guard Towns, have the C guard the lane, and leave V8 alone except in the paint or low box. With another big the opposing C cannot simply guard V8 because then a SF must guard our other big. The new big opens the lane for Ant and Dlo while also making it harder to double KAT and gives V8 a mismatch when he catches in the post or the paint.

I see the point of adding someone like Turner, but I don't see how putting Towns and V8 at PF/SF would solve our offensive issues. We are one of the worst NBA teams in half court offence, slightly better than DET and HOU. While on paper Turner is a stretch 5, it does not mean that he will be able to impact our offence enough to provide that space, because usually bigs have slower release, slower footwork, which means that they are slower in catch and shoot situation. We are spoiled because Towns is able to shoot like a guard: catch and shoot, stepback 3s, running off screens, but he is an exception not a rule. So many times even if a big can shoot a three, the opponent defense just dare him to shoot. The whole point of size in current NBA is transforming, because it is equally important to be able to defend in space, on perimeter, in transition etc. Watch this video:

Watch on YouTube

Based on your logic GSW should have put Wiseman (or another 7footer) at C, Green at PF. However, they are able to implement elite defense without true bigs. Ironically, they use a guy such as 6'3 Payton II instead of 7'1 Wiseman to compliment their defensive core. Is not it genius? That's what I call a basketball solution.

Lastly, I am not against Turner, but we have limited resources to improve our roster. If Turner is available for one FRP and expiring, I would do it. But if you ask me, I think the main problem of our current roster is versatility and depth, both in defense and offence. We rely hard on Vando and MCD to be that low man, but I would add third big wing, who can rotate and help in defence, while providing some scoring in offence.

I lean a little more minimus direction here.....while I definitely want to add size to the roster. I feel our say SL execution problems are more about just better decision making....KAT has started playing smarter & simpler the last 3....V8 being put in smarter spots besides just dunkers spot. I think with more time, it will fix itself. Besides even by moving V8 to the 3, if the current offensive problems continue...adding a big wouldn't change anything....the 5 would still guard V8 & they just guard KAT with the 3 (he's already been guarded by Brogden).

So I feel that issue is more X's & O's related....that said still need a 3rd reliable big as JMAC needs to be a 3 & Naz is more of a 4th big type.

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