Nuntius wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:Nuntius wrote:
The issue here is that not everyone sees Ben as a star right now. A good part of it is his performance in the last playoffs but even if you were to ignore that, he has a lot of holes in his game. Ben is a star-level defender (although, I'd say that the fact that he isn't a rim protector limits him a bit there) but offensively he isn't a star. His playmaking ability is great but it is hampered by his inability to take perimeter shots and pressure the opposing team with his scoring. He requires a pretty specific setup to get the most out of him and my guess is that a lot of teams are wondering right now whether it is worth it to build their team around him.
I understand your argument but Ben simply doesn't have the value that Morey is asking for at the moment. He isn't worth a top 30-50 player. He is worth an one-time All-Star, not a perennial All-Star. That means that you cannot go around and ask for 6+ picks and a good player. It is unreasonable. A borderline All-Star and 1 pick is the most that you can ask for right now.
So, no, I don't believe that teams are low balling the Sixers. I believe that Morey is asking for way too much for a player that, currently at least, doesn't have that kind of value. I think that Morey regrets not trading Simmons last year when his value was significantly higher and is now compounding that mistake by not accepting that his value has plummeted. Fact is, that value isn't going to rise unless Simmons plays and he isn't going to play for the Sixers ever again.
I know fans are media have been down on Ben, but I highly doubt GM's have changed their valuation on him by much if any. They get paid to NOT overreact.
Now to the bigger point, Philly isn't going to find a team that wants to trade their guy for Ben unless they feel Ben's a pretty good upgrade. But if someone asks out, then Ben becomes a MUCH more reasonable take. That's the game plan and no player has become available yet.
So meanwhile if a team wants ben and doesn't have a star...philly needs to get a stupid package of picks so they're ready to try and land that disgruntled star when he becomes available. And likely this means there won't be this type of deal. But that's what philly has to get to trade ben. A star or a package that's almost insane in terms of picks.
And thus we're here waiting because that's where we are. And it might be a year....philly seems good with this. Doesn't make sense to me that fans don't get that.
Pointing out that Ben Simmons refuses to take perimeter shots, though, isn't an overreaction. It is a key limitation to his game and it is a limitation that he's had throughout his career. It is a limitation that disqualifies him from being a star on the offensive end in this NBA era.
GMs' valuations of Simmons were always partly based on his perceived potential. He was thought of as a player who could play a game similar to LeBron's (playmaking wing that can be his team's #1 option). Simmons has proven that he doesn't have that kind of potential anymore. He will never be that kind of scorer. He simply lacks the perimeter touch for it. Take away that perceived potential from Simmons valuations and his value plummet even more. And that wouldn't be an overreaction either.
I don't think that Philly can afford to wait as much as you believe that they can. I believe that doing so wastes Embiid's prime and I don't see the offers that Philly receives getting any better.
The ship sailed on ben being a potential shooter years ago imo. Every summer we'd see these videos of him in practice with a broken jumper, make it clear he couldn't shoot. Fans would eat it up saying "ben's come back with a jumper" but any shooting coach would see those same videos and scream "OMG, no".
That said we've seen when Ben doesn't have a big man inside he's an impact level offensive player and he's still getting better defensively, I'm not sure he's come close to peaking. Ben with some vet off ball shooters could lead to an extremely entertaining and fun low level playoff basketball...which is what 75% of GM's ultimately are more than happy to put on the floor despite fan's wet dream that all GM's want to win titles. Most just want a product that keeps the owners happy and Ben's a reasonable choice for that.
And we can go back and fourth on this wasting Embiid's prime, but again a bad trade here ENDS Embiid's title windows in Philly for good. They can't afford to not wait. They have been on this path of Title or BUST since Hinkie, it's way too far into "the process" to pull out and accept failure which is what every deal we've seen discussed would be. I'm sure they don't like this senario and this is by no means what Morey wanted when he took the job. But here we stand, and Morey has to wait this out as they're all in here. Anything short of a star in return for Ben + extras is failure, and frankly if they can't get a star to go with Embiid. They need to trade Embiid too.
