2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

[Wolfgang630]

Curry isn’t ahead of Durant for MVP

[therealbig3]

The Warriors have the best defense in the NBA, and a lot of that has to do with Draymond Green being a beast again.

Yes the Warriors have a great offense, but they win games when their offense struggles, and it’s because they have an elite defense…and this has always been the case, going back to their championship runs. The offense routinely sputtered in the playoffs, and they still won because their defense was legit.

That’s always been my biggest issue with giving Curry the overwhelming amount of credit for the Warriors success. The main thing he’s responsible for (the offense) has historically been inconsistent and not up to par come playoff time, and they still win on the back of a great defense, which Curry has a negligible contribution to.

The main difference between Curry and someone like Nash back in the day is that Curry has a great defense behind him, and Nash didn’t. That’s really it.

Green honestly has just as much of an MVP case as Curry, their defense has been better than their offense.

The counter to that is Curry is so special offensively that you can play such a defensive heavy lineup and score enough to win. Dallas made a similar shift around Dirk once Nash left and look at that championship season. Dallas started Chandler, Marion, DeShawn, and Kidd around him. That's about as limited an offensive lineup as we've ever seen on a champion. But it worked because Dirk's gravity was so enormous the offense was good enough. Same thing with the Warriors. Outside the KD years, this was never a team with a ton of offensive talent. That only works because Curry is so special.

I've never understood that argument. Gets used to diminish Iverson as well. Philly won with defense and AI wasn't a big part of that and he was inefficient so he sucked. Yeah okay. But also his ability to maintain that offensive load night after night allowed them to play that strong defensive lineup. Something they couldn't have done without him and survived.

Just like Rudy Gobert needs to get some credit for the Jazz offense outside of just his screen assists and rim running. His presence allows them to play lineups with a lot of weak defenders and still be good defensively.

I mean, yeah, Curry is a great offensive player, there’s no denying that.

What you’re saying isn’t unique to him though, that’s typically the case with every great offensive player, you can play defensive oriented lineups around them because they’re great offensively.

My point is, how about actually giving credit to those defensive players though? Primarily Green. Their defense is their MVP this season, no question about it to me. Any argument that Curry is carrying a subpar supporting cast to wins is a really, really weak one imo.

[Texas Chuck]

My point is, how about actually giving credit to those defensive players though? Primarily Green. Their defense is their MVP this season, no question about it to me. Any argument that Curry is carrying a subpar supporting cast to wins is a really, really weak one imo.

I haven't said anything about the Warriors team being subpar around Steph. Draymond is a top 20 player alone.

But we have some metrics that are certainly indicating a ton of lift being done by Steph. Regardless of how good his teammates are or are not, Steph's having enormous positive impact and that's all that really matters here.

[MindState]

The Warriors have the best defense in the NBA, and a lot of that has to do with Draymond Green being a beast again.

Yes the Warriors have a great offense, but they win games when their offense struggles, and it’s because they have an elite defense…and this has always been the case, going back to their championship runs. The offense routinely sputtered in the playoffs, and they still won because their defense was legit.

That’s always been my biggest issue with giving Curry the overwhelming amount of credit for the Warriors success. The main thing he’s responsible for (the offense) has historically been inconsistent and not up to par come playoff time, and they still win on the back of a great defense, which Curry has a negligible contribution to.

The main difference between Curry and someone like Nash back in the day is that Curry has a great defense behind him, and Nash didn’t. That’s really it.

Green honestly has just as much of an MVP case as Curry, their defense has been better than their offense.

The reason their offense sputters is because once the playoffs roll around. The entire opposing team shifts to a "stop Curry at all costs" defense. Even the worst defensive teams can disrupt the Warriors offense when they send 2-3 defenders to shadow and trap Curry every time he touches the ball past half court.

You even saw this with KD on the team. Two defenders would run to Curry on a fast break, and just let KD drive down the middle for a dunk instead of giving Curry an open 3.

They are called, the "Curry Rules". Hes the most heavily defended player of all time, and its actually pretty incredible he puts up the numbers he does while being defended like this.

[therealbig3]

The Warriors have the best defense in the NBA, and a lot of that has to do with Draymond Green being a beast again.

Yes the Warriors have a great offense, but they win games when their offense struggles, and it’s because they have an elite defense…and this has always been the case, going back to their championship runs. The offense routinely sputtered in the playoffs, and they still won because their defense was legit.

That’s always been my biggest issue with giving Curry the overwhelming amount of credit for the Warriors success. The main thing he’s responsible for (the offense) has historically been inconsistent and not up to par come playoff time, and they still win on the back of a great defense, which Curry has a negligible contribution to.

The main difference between Curry and someone like Nash back in the day is that Curry has a great defense behind him, and Nash didn’t. That’s really it.

Green honestly has just as much of an MVP case as Curry, their defense has been better than their offense.

The reason their offense sputters is because once the playoffs roll around. The entire opposing team shifts to a "stop Curry at all costs" defense. Even the worst defensive teams can disrupt the Warriors offense when they send 2-3 defenders to shadow and trap Curry every time he touches the ball past half court.

You even saw this with KD on the team. Two defenders would run to Curry on a fast break, and just let KD drive down the middle for a dunk instead of giving Curry an open 3.

They are called, the "Curry Rules". Hes the most heavily defended player of all time, and its actually pretty incredible he puts up the numbers he does while being defended like this.

This is the popular narrative, but it’s not actually reality. And if the defense is constantly selling out to stop Curry the way you describe, then the offense should be unstoppable, not the other way around. That would mean the team should be able to generate a wide open look every time down the court.

[WarriorGM]

The Warriors have the best defense in the NBA, and a lot of that has to do with Draymond Green being a beast again.

Yes the Warriors have a great offense, but they win games when their offense struggles, and it’s because they have an elite defense…and this has always been the case, going back to their championship runs. The offense routinely sputtered in the playoffs, and they still won because their defense was legit.

That’s always been my biggest issue with giving Curry the overwhelming amount of credit for the Warriors success. The main thing he’s responsible for (the offense) has historically been inconsistent and not up to par come playoff time, and they still win on the back of a great defense, which Curry has a negligible contribution to.

The main difference between Curry and someone like Nash back in the day is that Curry has a great defense behind him, and Nash didn’t. That’s really it.

Green honestly has just as much of an MVP case as Curry, their defense has been better than their offense.

The counter to that is Curry is so special offensively that you can play such a defensive heavy lineup and score enough to win. Dallas made a similar shift around Dirk once Nash left and look at that championship season. Dallas started Chandler, Marion, DeShawn, and Kidd around him. That's about as limited an offensive lineup as we've ever seen on a champion. But it worked because Dirk's gravity was so enormous the offense was good enough. Same thing with the Warriors. Outside the KD years, this was never a team with a ton of offensive talent. That only works because Curry is so special.

I've never understood that argument. Gets used to diminish Iverson as well. Philly won with defense and AI wasn't a big part of that and he was inefficient so he sucked. Yeah okay. But also his ability to maintain that offensive load night after night allowed them to play that strong defensive lineup. Something they couldn't have done without him and survived.

Just like Rudy Gobert needs to get some credit for the Jazz offense outside of just his screen assists and rim running. His presence allows them to play lineups with a lot of weak defenders and still be good defensively.

I mean, yeah, Curry is a great offensive player, there’s no denying that.

What you’re saying isn’t unique to him though, that’s typically the case with every great offensive player, you can play defensive oriented lineups around them because they’re great offensively.

My point is, how about actually giving credit to those defensive players though? Primarily Green. Their defense is their MVP this season, no question about it to me. Any argument that Curry is carrying a subpar supporting cast to wins is a really, really weak one imo.

No it is pretty unique to Curry. Sure there are other players you could put defensive pieces like Green around and you'd win—but still not to the extent you would with Curry. With Curry out of the lineup in 2018, the Warriors labored to win.

Green leading a team saw what? The bottom of the league standings. Iguodala? First round playoffs fodder at his best when leading a team. Gary Payton II? Struggling to get out of the G League.

How about giving credit to Curry? We hear all the time about how Green helps Curry. But the greater effect is how Curry helps Green. Curry's effect on the defense is immense. From 26th in defensive rating to 5th in 2020. Wiggins may explain some of it but not all. Curry's effect may be poorly understood but to ignore it is to be willfully blind.

[MindState]

The Warriors have the best defense in the NBA, and a lot of that has to do with Draymond Green being a beast again.

Yes the Warriors have a great offense, but they win games when their offense struggles, and it’s because they have an elite defense…and this has always been the case, going back to their championship runs. The offense routinely sputtered in the playoffs, and they still won because their defense was legit.

That’s always been my biggest issue with giving Curry the overwhelming amount of credit for the Warriors success. The main thing he’s responsible for (the offense) has historically been inconsistent and not up to par come playoff time, and they still win on the back of a great defense, which Curry has a negligible contribution to.

The main difference between Curry and someone like Nash back in the day is that Curry has a great defense behind him, and Nash didn’t. That’s really it.

Green honestly has just as much of an MVP case as Curry, their defense has been better than their offense.

The reason their offense sputters is because once the playoffs roll around. The entire opposing team shifts to a "stop Curry at all costs" defense. Even the worst defensive teams can disrupt the Warriors offense when they send 2-3 defenders to shadow and trap Curry every time he touches the ball past half court.

You even saw this with KD on the team. Two defenders would run to Curry on a fast break, and just let KD drive down the middle for a dunk instead of giving Curry an open 3.

They are called, the "Curry Rules". Hes the most heavily defended player of all time, and its actually pretty incredible he puts up the numbers he does while being defended like this.

This is the popular narrative, but it’s not actually reality. And if the defense is constantly selling out to stop Curry the way you describe, then the offense should be unstoppable, not the other way around. That would mean the team should be able to generate a wide open look every time down the court.

The offense is not unstoppable because the Warriors have 2 non-scoring/shooting threats on the floor pretty much all the time. Teams double/triple steph and leave Draymond/Looney/Random Scrub open resulting in a low percentage shot. This is why getting Klay and Wiseman back will be so huge. Teams cannot leave Wiseman or he will easily dunk all over you and is athletic enough to make and finish all sorts of plays inside.

[ceiling raiser]

Draymond might have to drive for the open dunk if he's left open. With Klay back that'll be less of an issue.

As for the thread, I believe Steph and Jokic have the highest on-court ratings, so I probably pick one of those two.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm actually curious. Can anyone provide an argument for why record should factor into MVP voting without just descriptively pointing out "thats how it's always been?" I've never heard a convincing argument.

It's a question of how you see "value" given the recognition that the path to get from bad to good is distinct in shape compared to getting from good to great. If you believe that what matters is the degree to which you directly lift your team's performance, whether that means helping a 20 win team get to 30 or a 50 win team get to 60, then there's no need to be all that concerned with how effective his team is at playing basketball when he's leading them.

However, in the NBA, a core part of the philosophy we all buy into is that the goal is to win championships. If you incorporate this philosophy into the paragraph above, this leads to the conclusion that it matters that the impact you're having can scale to championship play.

Not saying you've got to agree with each step of the logic there, but I think it conveys the essence in my book. Also, if you can pinpoint where you diverge from this reasoning, then we can have clear knowledge of where perspectives simply diverge.

[ItsDanger]

Look at Denver's lineup for **** sakes. Jokic is the MVP. KD is up there too.

[WarriorGM]

Look at Denver's lineup for **** sakes. Jokic is the MVP. KD is up there too.

Is the Warriors' roster supposed to be that more impressive than the Nuggets'? I wouldn't be surprised if the Warriors still have more players that came up through the G League.

Curry playing with a former MVP? Unfair! He doesn't deserve consideration. KD playing with a former MVP: KD's carrying the team. The double standards at play when it comes to Curry are obvious.

[Wolfgang630]

Look at Denver's lineup for **** sakes. Jokic is the MVP. KD is up there too.

Is the Warriors' roster supposed to be that more impressive than the Nuggets'? I wouldn't be surprised if the Warriors still have more players that came up through the G League.

Curry playing with a former MVP? Unfair! He doesn't deserve consideration. KD playing with a former MVP: KD's carrying the team. The double standards at play when it comes to Curry are obvious.

The Warriors roster is better

[WarriorGM]

Look at Denver's lineup for **** sakes. Jokic is the MVP. KD is up there too.

Is the Warriors' roster supposed to be that more impressive than the Nuggets'? I wouldn't be surprised if the Warriors still have more players that came up through the G League.

Curry playing with a former MVP? Unfair! He doesn't deserve consideration. KD playing with a former MVP: KD's carrying the team. The double standards at play when it comes to Curry are obvious.

The Warriors roster is better

Why?

Why is it at the beginning of the season the people now saying the Warriors roster is better were predicting that the Warriors would be a playin team?

[BostonCouchGM]

Ime has ruined Nesmith. Needs to be moved

[BostonCouchGM]

Get Pritchard back in! Turn these machines back on!

[Cavsfansince84]

Why?

Why is it at the beginning of the season the people now saying the Warriors roster is better were predicting that the Warriors would be a playin team?

Plenty of people predicted they would be a top 5 team if not higher before this season even without Klay for much of it. They were 39-33 last year and given that the rest of the west largely took a step back as a whole its easy to see why they could be viewed as a top 4 team in the conf. I predicted like 52-55 wins for them myself. It was more a question of whether Steph could stay healthy and Draymond could return to near his old form.

[BoatsNZones]

Curry isn’t ahead of Durant for MVP

Vegas disagrees. Bet with your pocket book if you think you have an edge.


I will say that I think this is the stupidest time to bet against Curry. If he’s still the favorite after this run, the Curry haters are in trouble.

[BoatsNZones]

Look at Denver's lineup for **** sakes. Jokic is the MVP. KD is up there too.

Is the Warriors' roster supposed to be that more impressive than the Nuggets'? I wouldn't be surprised if the Warriors still have more players that came up through the G League.

Curry playing with a former MVP? Unfair! He doesn't deserve consideration. KD playing with a former MVP: KD's carrying the team. The double standards at play when it comes to Curry are obvious.

Yeah but role players always play worse with KD than Cur…. Waaaait a second : /

[JN61]

Is the Warriors' roster supposed to be that more impressive than the Nuggets'? I wouldn't be surprised if the Warriors still have more players that came up through the G League.

Curry playing with a former MVP? Unfair! He doesn't deserve consideration. KD playing with a former MVP: KD's carrying the team. The double standards at play when it comes to Curry are obvious.

The Warriors roster is better

Why?

Why is it at the beginning of the season the people now saying the Warriors roster is better were predicting that the Warriors would be a playin team?

Well probably the dead giveaway is despite Curry shooting like 35% last 9 games and adding nothing else on the table they keep winning...

[Dupp]

Curry is miles ahead.


Jokic has no case, team record matters.