PG: Kemba Rises From the Ashes. Knicks Still Ass

[blueNorange]

obi's minutes didnt increase, it's just that noel is always hurt -- when noel/mitchel both play obi gets only 10 minutes.

iq is getting more minutes because of injuries

[Nazrmohamed]

If you have to get that creative in terms of building around someone...he probably shouldn't be built around.

What separates Draymond is he captains one of the best defenses in the NBA. Randle couldn't get even 10% to that level if he tried.

Love is probably the best comp in terms of potential on court impact as a 3rd option in terms of pts and boards and solid assists.

But Love a sniper from 3 and a great C&S guy. You don't have to consistently guard randle when he doesn't have the ball because I don't think teams fear him from deep. Why would you? He has had one year his entire career of being above league avg 3 pt shooter. We paid him to hopefully build on last year...when it looks like last year seems to be just an anomaly with his success in terms of outside shots.

Well to be fair (and I'm just speaking to how it could work, not that it's my goal) look at true #1option contracts. These guys are all making like 40mil per yr. The Nets have like 3 guys at or close to 40mil. So I guess we did indeed get what we paid for and that's why when people say build around......Julius makes a pretty average salary for a guy we all believe is really a 3rd option, probably very cost effective for a 2nd option and a steal for a primary (if he were indeed a primary). So my point is you could keep Julius and not necessarily be building around him. You could build OVER HIM, similar to how NY got Amare and then brought in Melo who was better. Or the Heat had Wade andbrought in a player better and below him in Lebron and Bosh. There doesn't need to be this mathematical order of operations.

Doesn't HAVE TO be, ideally you typically see your alpha established 1st but sometimes it's your 3rd or 2nd and when it happens like that the wind or 3rd must act like the aloha until the alpha is acquired. But hey, I'm in no mood to endorse Randle right now so again, don't take that as what I want to happen just saying it could happen.

But $29M per year is not AVERAGE. Randle is paid a fukton of money for his abilities.

Hes making 21mil this yr, 26 next yr and 28in the 22/23 season Clyde. You are incorrect about the figures. I hate to be a stickler as if I can say hes playing well cuz he's not. But it's 30 games into his 1st yr of the contract. I doubt that it's gonna happen but it once happened. Last yr did indeed happen.

I already know how you feel about his playoff series we've already discussed this. But at the end of the day even if you knew that would happen every single yr you attempt to make him the primary option all it would prove is hes not a 1st option. It doesn't prove that......and I'll just throw a name out there... . if let's say Lillard instead were the ball dominator, took all that heat, ran the team; that last yrs version of Randle wouldn't be a decent 2nd option or excellent 3rd.

Now you can counter with his playstyle and how he needs the ball and I'll consider that, but again salary wise he's not preventing us from putting him in that scenario is what I'm saying. 21 mil is cheap for a 2nd option and only alittle expensive for a 3rd. Another way to look at it is hes putting up the raw numbers to justify his contract, but he not providing the leadership or playstyle to be a number one and if he could you'd be paying him 30per yr instead.

There's a dude talking about John Wall tonight. THATS a crazy contract.

[Clyde_Style]

obi's minutes didnt increase, it's just that noel is always hurt -- when noel/mitchel both play obi gets only 10 minutes.

iq is getting more minutes because of injuries

If you took Thibs to a cheese tasting and offered him a choice beween the world’s finest farmer’s cheese and a 20 year old block of gruyere injected with rat poison you know what he would choose

[GONYK]

Kemba is not in the rotation so that technically wouldn't open up minutes but I get your point. Burks can be moved and that would probably open up mins for Grimes or McBride.

Fournier is going to be really tough to move unless we are willing to take a bad contract back in return who is worse player just to open up minutes. That probably would make basketball sense but it also signals the FO is pulling the plug on the entire offseason they sold us on...they would have to swallow a lot of pride and a tough sell to an owner. Not sure you can have many more offseasons like that if you are trying to trade nearly every pieces you signs to multi year deals in year 1 of there deals because they aren't performing.

They were signed to be traded though. I'm steadfast in that belief. I don't think offloading any of them matters in any meaningful way.

The FO has to do what's best regardless. I think it's an easy sell to pivot because all the young guys (that you drafted) are producing faster than anticipated.

That's what the fans want to see anyway.

They may have been signed to be traded but they have to be playing well to be traded. Other teams see whats happening with the knicks this is a sh*t show. How many teams are knocking down the door for a Randle? A Fournier? A Noel? A Kemba?

Maybe you can sell me on a team with interest in Burks...a combo guard/wing that can score off the bench has some value. Someone would trade for Rose as well (but I don't think Thibs would sign off on dealing his guy).

If we can see that the team is better with Grimes a rookie than paying a 17 MM to Fournier then I'm sure other teams see that as well.

Who, other than Fournier, is underperforming for their contract? I'd argue nobody. Burks, Rose, Noel, Kemba are all good value contracts for their production, provided you have the right role for them.

Plus, we always talk about our players as if other players around the league aren't also playing poorly or may be bad fits in their current situation.

I keep thinking about Josh Richardson. That guy played like complete ass in Dallas, still opted out of his contract and got the same deal in Boston.

Talent on reasonable deals are hard to find and we have a few of them for teams who need role players.

[HarthorneWingo]

Bol Bol would put us over the top

[bearadonisdna]

Me: I want to see the best iteration of this team .

To me that doesn’t mean rookies .
Ya’ll really don’t know thibs ,begging for the rookies sounds like the most defeatist sh it ever

[Worst_to_First]

Aller was the one Thibs bullied right? Would like to see him made GM and the one to fire Thibs.

[Clyde_Style]

Well to be fair (and I'm just speaking to how it could work, not that it's my goal) look at true #1option contracts. These guys are all making like 40mil per yr. The Nets have like 3 guys at or close to 40mil. So I guess we did indeed get what we paid for and that's why when people say build around......Julius makes a pretty average salary for a guy we all believe is really a 3rd option, probably very cost effective for a 2nd option and a steal for a primary (if he were indeed a primary). So my point is you could keep Julius and not necessarily be building around him. You could build OVER HIM, similar to how NY got Amare and then brought in Melo who was better. Or the Heat had Wade andbrought in a player better and below him in Lebron and Bosh. There doesn't need to be this mathematical order of operations.

Doesn't HAVE TO be, ideally you typically see your alpha established 1st but sometimes it's your 3rd or 2nd and when it happens like that the wind or 3rd must act like the aloha until the alpha is acquired. But hey, I'm in no mood to endorse Randle right now so again, don't take that as what I want to happen just saying it could happen.

But $29M per year is not AVERAGE. Randle is paid a fukton of money for his abilities.

Hes making 21mil this yr, 26 next yr and 28in the 22/23 season Clyde. You are incorrect about the figures. I hate to be a stickler as if I can say hes playing well cuz he's not. But it's 30 games into his 1st yr of the contract. I doubt that it's gonna happen but it once happened. Last yr did indeed happen.

I already know how you feel about his playoff series we've already discussed this. But at the end of the day even if you knew that would happen every single yr you attempt to make him the primary option all it would prove is hes not a 1st option. It doesn't prove that......and I'll just throw a name out there... . if let's say Lillard instead were the ball dominator, took all that heat, ran the team; that last yrs version of Randle wouldn't be a decent 2nd option or excellent 3rd.

Now you can counter with his playstyle and how he needs the ball and I'll consider that, but again salary wise he's not preventing us from putting him in that scenario is what I'm saying. 21 mil is cheap for a 2nd option and only alittle expensive for a 3rd. Another way to look at it is hes putting up the raw numbers to justify his contract, but he not providing the leadership or playstyle to be a number one and if he could you'd be paying him 30per yr instead.

There's a dude talking about John Wall tonight. THATS a crazy contract.

I thought it was $117M over 4 years which averages out to $29M

Still, saying 21M is cheap for a guy who plays with so little intelligence is not something I can agree with. I don’t think he can bring you $15M in value because he is obstinately stupid about playing any other way than dominating the ball. He has regressed so greatly there’s no reconciling it any longer. He’s just terrible

[DaGawd]

Damn the trade Randle movement is gaining momentum rapidly.. as a previous Randle supporter I can’t say I’m not on the train myself..

you're not allowed, certain randle stans must wear their shame.

RJ is still ass to me.. make no mistake

[Clyde_Style]

Bol Bol would put us over the top

No, Tacko Fall Bol Bol would put us over the top

[DaGawd]

Bol Bol would put us over the top

That’s a nice cheap flier I wouldn’t mind taking

[knickstape4ever]

article back in march 9, 2021

According to Yaron Weitzman in the New York Post, Thibodeau wanted to reshape the roster to chase wins this season. Thibodeau reportedly thought the Knicks could trade second-year wing R.J. Barrett and third-year center Mitchell Robinson for "seasoned veterans."

i fear thibs is going to torpedo the knicks phil jackson style.

Phil Jackson wasn't as bad in hindsight. his big blunders were Noah, Lee and how he handled the Melo situation

sure, he passed on Donovan Mitchell but so did 12 other teams

but at least he had the self-awareness to try and rebuild when he knew they couldn't contend. We can't say the same about this FO

....and he tried to KP to Boston for #3 and Brown but got nixed by Dolan

Phil held on to our picks

Otherwise, he was mostly a disaster

His first move was hiring Derek Fisher

Then he meddled with his triangle BS with Hornacek

Phil was lazy and barely did any work. He thought analytics was a rap group

Fisher wasn't a great hire, but wasn't that bad. we had no talent in 2014/15 once Melo got hut. that was the year we literally rolled out this lineup:



I personally appreciated Phil not trading picks...and if he was allowed to make that Boston deal, this franchise would look a whole lot different today

agreed that he should've let Hornacek do his thing and abandon the triangle now that the game is so perimeter oriented

[GONYK]

article back in march 9, 2021

According to Yaron Weitzman in the New York Post, Thibodeau wanted to reshape the roster to chase wins this season. Thibodeau reportedly thought the Knicks could trade second-year wing R.J. Barrett and third-year center Mitchell Robinson for "seasoned veterans."

i fear thibs is going to torpedo the knicks phil jackson style.

Thibs isn't the GM as the rest of that article showed, since Aller blatantly pushed back.

goes to show that he cares more about a couple extra W's in the immediate future than the long-term

He should. That's his job. That's why they hired him and not another coach.

It's the FO's job to consider the long term.

[Clyde_Style]

Phil Jackson wasn't as bad in hindsight. his big blunders were Noah, Lee and how he handled the Melo situation

sure, he passed on Donovan Mitchell but so did 12 other teams

but at least he had the self-awareness to try and rebuild when he knew they couldn't contend. We can't say the same about this FO

....and he tried to KP to Boston for #3 and Brown but got nixed by Dolan

Phil held on to our picks

Otherwise, he was mostly a disaster

His first move was hiring Derek Fisher

Then he meddled with his triangle BS with Hornacek

Phil was lazy and barely did any work. He thought analytics was a rap group

Fisher wasn't a great hire, but wasn't that bad. we had no talent in 2014/15 once Melo got hut. that was the year we literally rolled out this lineup:



I personally appreciated Phil not trading picks...and if he was allowed to make that Boston deal, this franchise would look a whole lot different today

agreed that he should've let Hornacek do his thing and abandon the triangle now that the game is so perimeter oriented

Talent notwithstanding, Fisher was eggregiously bad. I will never forget the mic on the huddle one game where he told the team the other team puts on their pants one leg at a time just like they do. He was a chump

[Nazrmohamed]

If you have to get that creative in terms of building around someone...he probably shouldn't be built around.

What separates Draymond is he captains one of the best defenses in the NBA. Randle couldn't get even 10% to that level if he tried.

Love is probably the best comp in terms of potential on court impact as a 3rd option in terms of pts and boards and solid assists.

But Love a sniper from 3 and a great C&S guy. You don't have to consistently guard randle when he doesn't have the ball because I don't think teams fear him from deep. Why would you? He has had one year his entire career of being above league avg 3 pt shooter. We paid him to hopefully build on last year...when it looks like last year seems to be just an anomaly with his success in terms of outside shots.

Well to be fair (and I'm just speaking to how it could work, not that it's my goal) look at true #1option contracts. These guys are all making like 40mil per yr. The Nets have like 3 guys at or close to 40mil. So I guess we did indeed get what we paid for and that's why when people say build around......Julius makes a pretty average salary for a guy we all believe is really a 3rd option, probably very cost effective for a 2nd option and a steal for a primary (if he were indeed a primary). So my point is you could keep Julius and not necessarily be building around him. You could build OVER HIM, similar to how NY got Amare and then brought in Melo who was better. Or the Heat had Wade andbrought in a player better and below him in Lebron and Bosh. There doesn't need to be this mathematical order of operations.

Doesn't HAVE TO be, ideally you typically see your alpha established 1st but sometimes it's your 3rd or 2nd and when it happens like that the wind or 3rd must act like the aloha until the alpha is acquired. But hey, I'm in no mood to endorse Randle right now so again, don't take that as what I want to happen just saying it could happen.

an honest question you have to ask you self in terms of building "over him". Who is lining up to play with Julius Randle? His game isn't conducive to low usage nor does he do other little things like defense that is required to be a complimentary piece.

He has a great season last year, I fell for it...but his shot selection is ass and can easily be neutralized by a simple defensive strategy. The post season exposed this and its carried over this year.

Idk I'd really have to think about that. But Rose netter be thinking about that and I hope his answer isn't Ben Gordon and Miles Turner. Then yes, he'd be building around as opposed to over.

But this is my last response because I don't even wanna talk myself into this anymore. I wanna blow it up tbh. I said it earlier all you gotta do is keep playing the vets. Isn't that sad when you think about it though. Anytime you say you wanna rebuild and tank the first thing that comes to mind is benching all the vets and playing the youth. We're the only team in the nba that might do worse starting all your vets. Not to mention, Randle has been so toxic that it's almost a demotion to start on this team. When RJ comes back I want him in the 2nd unit. Dude may in fact ruin his career starting for this Rando-centric lineup.

[Clyde_Style]

Well, anyway, good loss, fukit and good night

[mpharris36]

They were signed to be traded though. I'm steadfast in that belief. I don't think offloading any of them matters in any meaningful way.

The FO has to do what's best regardless. I think it's an easy sell to pivot because all the young guys (that you drafted) are producing faster than anticipated.

That's what the fans want to see anyway.

They may have been signed to be traded but they have to be playing well to be traded. Other teams see whats happening with the knicks this is a sh*t show. How many teams are knocking down the door for a Randle? A Fournier? A Noel? A Kemba?

Maybe you can sell me on a team with interest in Burks...a combo guard/wing that can score off the bench has some value. Someone would trade for Rose as well (but I don't think Thibs would sign off on dealing his guy).

If we can see that the team is better with Grimes a rookie than paying a 17 MM to Fournier then I'm sure other teams see that as well.

Who, other than Fournier, is underperforming for their contract? I'd argue nobody. Burks, Rose, Noel, Kemba are all good value contracts for their production, provided you have the right role for them.

Plus, we always talk about our players as if other players around the league aren't also playing poorly or may be bad fits in their current situation.

I keep thinking about Josh Richardson. That guy played like complete ass in Dallas, still opted out of his contract and got the same deal in Boston.

Talent on reasonable deals are hard to find and we have a few of them for teams who need role players.

Noel has been ass this year and can't stay healthy. Its not very common teams pump 10 MM into a backup center that they want to pay to play 12-14 mins off the bench.

Kemba defensively is a disaster...if he was just required to score sure. But he gives up more pts then he provides on offense.

Richardson can provide offense and he's a solid defender...that is why. guys that play on both ends maintain there value. the reason we are where we are is because we got 1-way players that unless they are scoring they aren't helping.

[Clyde_Style]

Well to be fair (and I'm just speaking to how it could work, not that it's my goal) look at true #1option contracts. These guys are all making like 40mil per yr. The Nets have like 3 guys at or close to 40mil. So I guess we did indeed get what we paid for and that's why when people say build around......Julius makes a pretty average salary for a guy we all believe is really a 3rd option, probably very cost effective for a 2nd option and a steal for a primary (if he were indeed a primary). So my point is you could keep Julius and not necessarily be building around him. You could build OVER HIM, similar to how NY got Amare and then brought in Melo who was better. Or the Heat had Wade andbrought in a player better and below him in Lebron and Bosh. There doesn't need to be this mathematical order of operations.

Doesn't HAVE TO be, ideally you typically see your alpha established 1st but sometimes it's your 3rd or 2nd and when it happens like that the wind or 3rd must act like the aloha until the alpha is acquired. But hey, I'm in no mood to endorse Randle right now so again, don't take that as what I want to happen just saying it could happen.

an honest question you have to ask you self in terms of building "over him". Who is lining up to play with Julius Randle? His game isn't conducive to low usage nor does he do other little things like defense that is required to be a complimentary piece.

He has a great season last year, I fell for it...but his shot selection is ass and can easily be neutralized by a simple defensive strategy. The post season exposed this and its carried over this year.

Idk I'd really have to think about that. But Rose netter be thinking about that and I hope his answer isn't Ben Gordon and Miles Turner. Then yes, he'd be building around as opposed to over.

But this is my last response because I don't even wanna talk myself into this anymore. I wanna blow it up tbh. I said it earlier all you gotta do is keep playing the vets. Isn't that sad when you think about it though. Anytime you say you wanna rebuild and tank the first thing that comes to mind is benching all the vets and playing the youth. We're the only team in the nba that might do worse starting all your vets. Not to mention, Randle has been so toxic that it's almost a demotion to start on this team. When RJ comes back I want him in the 2nd unit. Dude may in fact ruin his career starting for this Rando-centric lineup.

That’s so true. Our vets are true tank commanders

[knickstape4ever]

Phil held on to our picks

Otherwise, he was mostly a disaster

His first move was hiring Derek Fisher

Then he meddled with his triangle BS with Hornacek

Phil was lazy and barely did any work. He thought analytics was a rap group

Fisher wasn't a great hire, but wasn't that bad. we had no talent in 2014/15 once Melo got hut. that was the year we literally rolled out this lineup:



I personally appreciated Phil not trading picks...and if he was allowed to make that Boston deal, this franchise would look a whole lot different today

agreed that he should've let Hornacek do his thing and abandon the triangle now that the game is so perimeter oriented

Talent notwithstanding, Fisher was eggregiously bad. I will never forget the mic on the huddle one game where he told the team the other team puts on their pants one leg at a time just like they do. He was a chump

he was a first time HC, it's a growing process. Eagles HC spoke for like 3-4 minutes about watering and fertilizing plants as an analogy for a team

[Phish Tank]

I'm not gonna judge the Knicks after this game. We got 3 points off the bench, played with effectively 2 real starters in the starting lineup, 2 guys who have no business getting the number of minutes they do, and the rest are in mysterious COVID protocols.

With that said - might as well discuss the Randle situation.

He's a 3rd option paid as a 3rd option, but expected to be the 1st option on offense and effectively the defensive anchor. He spends so much energy on offense that he can't expend that energy on defense. When he does focus his energy on defense, his offense suffers. So effectively his offense and defense have mostly been a mess. With that said, he's been a bit more decisive in recent games, which is really what you need despite his shooting slumps.

Randle's just trying to be prime LeBron or current day Luka/Giannis/Jokic on offense. He's good, but not that calibre of good. Also, we have no system in place that can empower him to even be remotely close to those guys. Cutters? Nah. Curlers? Nah. Off-ball movement? Nah. Placing guys on the corners that don't move make it very easy for defenses to target us. Very easy. Too bad Thibs is too (Please Use More Appropriate Word) to notice that.

Maybe simplifying Randle's shot diet can do the trick in the short-term. Ditch some of the fadeaways and long mid-range shots... get him more action in P&Rs.... maybe fewer 3s. If Randle can get back to the upper 40s with his FG%, that'll help. Also, everyone else hitting shots would be refreshing.

With that said, the bigger elephant in the room is that our 5s regressed. Bigger problem because that effectively destroyed our defense and offensive rhythm (since we're playing in halfcourt a lot more frequently)

Hopefully when people recover from COVID protocols, we can also cut Burks & Rose's minutes and send both back to the bench full-time.