PG: Kemba Rises From the Ashes. Knicks Still Ass

[god shammgod]

Watch on YouTube

guess who's on the list

[thebuzzardman]

I want to see this team with Deuce and Grimes in the rotation - and see how much better they play as a unit with two solid defenders / 3 point shooters in the lineup. It is our defensive collapse this season that has completely undermined this group - and I think this team might be able to right the season if Thibs has the guts to let these guys play (and live with their rookie mistakes). However, for you tankers, they should stay the course...

Here's the way I see it.

Randle has some real issues in terms of being an alpha to build around.
Nonetheless, that's exactly who they decided to build around.

Randle likes being the MMFIC. As much as he likes being a "team player" and passing, I think ego wise, Randle wants to be the definitive center of the team.

Elf was a mediocre PG who stayed in his lane. Bullocks was a low paid journeyman who hustled. Mitch a young energy C and missed a lot of time. Noel a journeyman C on a short deal. Burks a 6th man. Rose a vet PG who knew his place, came off the bench. RJ the 2nd year guy who defers to Randle. See the picture?

One of the things we commented on here, my brother talked about it, is that the team had no hierarchy last year, pay wise. Everyone made the same amount of money, relatively, to each other. So it was easy, in theory, to shuffle lineups etc, not that Thibs did.
What we ignored, and my brother, is that Randle was the one guy making the most. Standing out as "the leader". And since he passed the ball and worked hard, we assumed he was and is a good, humble guy.
But he's not, not really.
Randle has a real chip on his shoulder as not being mentioned as one of the top players in the game.
Yes, that should make him work harder this year, but for whatever reason, he's not.
My theory is he doesn't like sharing the spotlight, so Fournier and Kemba are kind of threats.

Why mention this in a topic about McBride and Grimes? Because I think the way the Knicks get the most out of Randle is to put lower totem guys around him, where he feels most obviously "The man". The fact they play D at the point of attack helps the C's, and also covers for Randle's lackluster defensive effort. Maybe with time his ego makes his defense step up. Who knows.

McBride
Grimes
RJ
Randle
Mitch

We're stuck with Randle for a while. Might as well play the players that make him comfortable.

2nd unit:

Rose
IQ
Fournier
Obi
Noel

[Gravy]

Going all cmgw here, but the reason the Knicks always suck is that any GM always has to appease Dolan.

I mean, Rose was hired by Dolan appeasing HIMSELF.
Dolan was embarrassed by Mills, the Nets, himself in the press, so he fired Mills, hired the "Agent and WWW with all the contacts" to deliver and undo the embarrassment.

So Leon knows he's got to win right away - that's part of the appeasement of Dolan process - enough winning for "progress" but also fannies in seats. Not specifically good team, just one that's "interesting" and again, moves tickets. It's a product, not a team.

Step one is accomplished.
Now the seat for Leon is getting a little warm, since Knicks are losing, but mostly, because Kemba situation is fanning negative articles and also Knicks sucking is about to resurrect "LOL Knicks" in the dailies, twitter, BSPN, etc.
Leon probably staves off his beheading by feeding Perry or Aller to the wolves
Then it comes down to Leon importing a "star" that Dolan feels guarantees asses in seats for 4 or 5 years.
It'll either be a real star or a fake star, it doesn't matter.
Then, eventually, Dolan gets tired of still getting laughed at and fires Leon.

Yea, it all goes back to Dolan. He never wants a full rebuild plan where we bottom out and start from scratch. It's always remain competitive and try to rebuild at the same time. Hence we focus more on vets then youth and development.

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

[Deeeez Knicks]

the focus should be on randle because even though there's a lot of other things to nitpick, having your main guy play an all-star level solves a lot of other problems. and he's not doing that this year. and if i had to guess, he never will again. there's more evidence based on past seasons that he's not that than he is.

Randle regressing is really our biggest issue especially when we tried building around him and gave him a long term deal. As you mentioned, all the tinkering doesnt do anything cause Randle is still not the 2020/21 Randle. And maybe it was just unfair to expect him to carry the team like that. Its more on management for that. Hopefully they can realize where we stand and don't try to double down on it and make things worse.

The more serious issue is not Randle regressing, but WHY. And how. Or the why, what and how he's regressing.

Knicks offense looked ok the first 6 games. It looked good. Obviously early days and scouting reports, I get that.
But then Randle stops buying in. Sure, he got his assists and some numbers, but pretty obviously so no longer buying in.
Does Randle hate playing with these two new guys this much?
More troubling, his effort on defense, boxing out, rebounding, go WAY down.
Is he that mentally weak? Does Kemba/Fournier piss him off that much that he can't put in effort if Fournier isn't? Does he miss towel waving Pinson that much?
Then Kemba is benched, Randle bad body language continues.
Maybe he hates Fournier. Kind of unprofessional then.
The kids come in, inject some life, Randle still kind of half assing around.

It's a big change. His talent level is the same, but the effort is way off. He really ramped it up just to get paid? Seems weird.

His shooting is the biggest issue. When he is hitting his shots and has confidence it opens up everything else including passing lanes. When things start going bad for Randle it seems like it hurts the rest of his game and he spirals downhill.

[thebuzzardman]

Going all cmgw here, but the reason the Knicks always suck is that any GM always has to appease Dolan.

I mean, Rose was hired by Dolan appeasing HIMSELF.
Dolan was embarrassed by Mills, the Nets, himself in the press, so he fired Mills, hired the "Agent and WWW with all the contacts" to deliver and undo the embarrassment.

So Leon knows he's got to win right away - that's part of the appeasement of Dolan process - enough winning for "progress" but also fannies in seats. Not specifically good team, just one that's "interesting" and again, moves tickets. It's a product, not a team.

Step one is accomplished.
Now the seat for Leon is getting a little warm, since Knicks are losing, but mostly, because Kemba situation is fanning negative articles and also Knicks sucking is about to resurrect "LOL Knicks" in the dailies, twitter, BSPN, etc.
Leon probably staves off his beheading by feeding Perry or Aller to the wolves
Then it comes down to Leon importing a "star" that Dolan feels guarantees asses in seats for 4 or 5 years.
It'll either be a real star or a fake star, it doesn't matter.
Then, eventually, Dolan gets tired of still getting laughed at and fires Leon.

Yea, it all goes back to Dolan. He never wants a full rebuild plan where we bottom out and start from scratch. It's always remain competitive and try to rebuild at the same time. Hence we focus more on vets then youth and development.

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

Dolan doesn't care.
There's no reason why a competent org can't weather the media storm of negativity. Or deal with some down ticket sales.
They hire a good GM/FO, put together a plan and see it through.
Dolan just wants X amount of capacity. Mostly sellouts, but I'm sure there's a dip that's ok and one that's not ok.
Once it goes below that "not ok" line, he freaks out and scraps any plan.
I think. It seems to be that.

[thebuzzardman]

Randle regressing is really our biggest issue especially when we tried building around him and gave him a long term deal. As you mentioned, all the tinkering doesnt do anything cause Randle is still not the 2020/21 Randle. And maybe it was just unfair to expect him to carry the team like that. Its more on management for that. Hopefully they can realize where we stand and don't try to double down on it and make things worse.

The more serious issue is not Randle regressing, but WHY. And how. Or the why, what and how he's regressing.

Knicks offense looked ok the first 6 games. It looked good. Obviously early days and scouting reports, I get that.
But then Randle stops buying in. Sure, he got his assists and some numbers, but pretty obviously so no longer buying in.
Does Randle hate playing with these two new guys this much?
More troubling, his effort on defense, boxing out, rebounding, go WAY down.
Is he that mentally weak? Does Kemba/Fournier piss him off that much that he can't put in effort if Fournier isn't? Does he miss towel waving Pinson that much?
Then Kemba is benched, Randle bad body language continues.
Maybe he hates Fournier. Kind of unprofessional then.
The kids come in, inject some life, Randle still kind of half assing around.

It's a big change. His talent level is the same, but the effort is way off. He really ramped it up just to get paid? Seems weird.

His shooting is the biggest issue. When he is hitting his shots and has confidence it opens up everything else including passing lanes. When things start going bad for Randle it seems like it hurts the rest of his game and he spirals downhill.

New ball hurting Randle more than the fans

[Deeeez Knicks]

serious question, what the eff has he done to you?

Besides be another in a long line of Knick disappointments?

He's ok. Nothing special. That's the way it goes in the draft, sometimes. At least we went for a period of time where the Knicks kept their picks and were in a position to keep trying. A time that is going to end shortly. Soon the Knicks will be trading away picks like the Knicks teams of yore.

You're actually being generous.

I love RJ, but he hasn't been "ok" this year. He's been dreadful.

.510 TS% on a 22.4 USG%, yet with barely any shot creation duties (and bottom of the league when he does create) is not "ok".

Ok would be something like .555 TS%, with some ability to create in a pinch.

RJ needs to get his ish together as well.

One of RJs biggest issues is consistency. In 10 games in Oct/Dec he has a 59% TS compared to 15 games in Nov where he has a 45% TS.

Or in wins has a 57% TS compared to 45% TS in loses. And we saw it last year where he struggled early and then came on later in the season.

That is unacceptable to be that inconsistent, BUT I think consistency is something a lot of young players go thru and something that can be improved over time.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Going all cmgw here, but the reason the Knicks always suck is that any GM always has to appease Dolan.

I mean, Rose was hired by Dolan appeasing HIMSELF.
Dolan was embarrassed by Mills, the Nets, himself in the press, so he fired Mills, hired the "Agent and WWW with all the contacts" to deliver and undo the embarrassment.

So Leon knows he's got to win right away - that's part of the appeasement of Dolan process - enough winning for "progress" but also fannies in seats. Not specifically good team, just one that's "interesting" and again, moves tickets. It's a product, not a team.

Step one is accomplished.
Now the seat for Leon is getting a little warm, since Knicks are losing, but mostly, because Kemba situation is fanning negative articles and also Knicks sucking is about to resurrect "LOL Knicks" in the dailies, twitter, BSPN, etc.
Leon probably staves off his beheading by feeding Perry or Aller to the wolves
Then it comes down to Leon importing a "star" that Dolan feels guarantees asses in seats for 4 or 5 years.
It'll either be a real star or a fake star, it doesn't matter.
Then, eventually, Dolan gets tired of still getting laughed at and fires Leon.

Yea, it all goes back to Dolan. He never wants a full rebuild plan where we bottom out and start from scratch. It's always remain competitive and try to rebuild at the same time. Hence we focus more on vets then youth and development.

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

We have been one of the worst teams the past 20 years anyway. The fans have dealt with some pretty bad teams before. The fans will always come back in the end. Its not so much the fans being able to deal with those things. Of course there will be some negative articles, and booing...it all happens anyway. Its if the owner can stomach those things and have the patience for it though

[Clyde_Style]

So Randle can’t be traded until February 3rd. Is this correct?

Yes. Leon told Philly to cool their jets

If Philly trades Ben Simmons for Julius Randle, can Tobias Harris play small forward most of the time?

Embiid and Drummond take up all 48 minutes at center, so there aren't any minutes for Randle or Harris there.

It is wishful thinking on my part, though I am interested in Simmons

[Clyde_Style]

Did anyone think, while watching the game, "If only RJ were here, he'd have made a big difference"

I didn't think so.

Nope, not because I think he's a bust, but because I think he'd be relegated to 4th option in this iso heavy offense.

I actually came away thinking how trash the Celtics really are ...as they had their 2 main cogs and still struggled mightily to beat our gutted squad.

Not sure whom the Celtics were missing due to covid, but they had no depth. And their two main guys do not play like teammates mostly. The majority of the time they take turns with the rock.

[Clyde_Style]

Yea, it all goes back to Dolan. He never wants a full rebuild plan where we bottom out and start from scratch. It's always remain competitive and try to rebuild at the same time. Hence we focus more on vets then youth and development.

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

Dolan doesn't care.
There's no reason why a competent org can't weather the media storm of negativity. Or deal with some down ticket sales.
They hire a good GM/FO, put together a plan and see it through.
Dolan just wants X amount of capacity. Mostly sellouts, but I'm sure there's a dip that's ok and one that's not ok.
Once it goes below that "not ok" line, he freaks out and scraps any plan.
I think. It seems to be that.

What the crowds at MSG enjoy is intensity. They will get behind a scrappy team of young players if they show the effort. This is the actual historical behavior of Knicks fans at the game, but Dolan is too stupid to recognize this.

[Clyde_Style]

Going all cmgw here, but the reason the Knicks always suck is that any GM always has to appease Dolan.

I mean, Rose was hired by Dolan appeasing HIMSELF.
Dolan was embarrassed by Mills, the Nets, himself in the press, so he fired Mills, hired the "Agent and WWW with all the contacts" to deliver and undo the embarrassment.

So Leon knows he's got to win right away - that's part of the appeasement of Dolan process - enough winning for "progress" but also fannies in seats. Not specifically good team, just one that's "interesting" and again, moves tickets. It's a product, not a team.

Step one is accomplished.
Now the seat for Leon is getting a little warm, since Knicks are losing, but mostly, because Kemba situation is fanning negative articles and also Knicks sucking is about to resurrect "LOL Knicks" in the dailies, twitter, BSPN, etc.
Leon probably staves off his beheading by feeding Perry or Aller to the wolves
Then it comes down to Leon importing a "star" that Dolan feels guarantees asses in seats for 4 or 5 years.
It'll either be a real star or a fake star, it doesn't matter.
Then, eventually, Dolan gets tired of still getting laughed at and fires Leon.

I hope Aller has photos of Dolan fcking a dog

[Clyde_Style]

the focus should be on randle because even though there's a lot of other things to nitpick, having your main guy play an all-star level solves a lot of other problems. and he's not doing that this year. and if i had to guess, he never will again. there's more evidence based on past seasons that he's not that than he is.

Randle regressing is really our biggest issue especially when we tried building around him and gave him a long term deal. As you mentioned, all the tinkering doesnt do anything cause Randle is still not the 2020/21 Randle. And maybe it was just unfair to expect him to carry the team like that. Its more on management for that. Hopefully they can realize where we stand and don't try to double down on it and make things worse.

there were signs management shouldn't have ignored. a guy breaking out at 26 is rare. so how real is it ? the complete meltdown in the playoffs. the empty arenas and players missing so often from covid to give us/him an easier schedule. unless they think he's still easily tradeable so paying him doesn't matter but i'm not so sure he is.

It’s too late. Randle is looking over his shoulder. He’s paranoid. NYC has his number now and it scares the crap out of him.

I’m not saying this out of spite. It is just what I see, but Julius has the most haunted look like a guy who knows he pulled off the heist but he still has to stand trial even if gets to keep the money. He’s shook.

TBH, the only way to repair Randle’s broken psyche is to put the ball in the hand of a floor general who tells Randle where to go. Continuing to run the offense through Randle will damage him beyond repair so I do hope Thibs does this.

[Gravy]

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

Dolan doesn't care.
There's no reason why a competent org can't weather the media storm of negativity. Or deal with some down ticket sales.
They hire a good GM/FO, put together a plan and see it through.
Dolan just wants X amount of capacity. Mostly sellouts, but I'm sure there's a dip that's ok and one that's not ok.
Once it goes below that "not ok" line, he freaks out and scraps any plan.
I think. It seems to be that.

What the crowds at MSG enjoy is intensity. They will get behind a scrappy team of young players if they show the effort. This is the actual historical behavior of Knicks fans at the game, but Dolan is too stupid to recognize this.

This is one of the youngest teams the Knicks has ever had. Nobody really expected Grimes and Mcbride to look good this early. The next few weeks we'll see if they go in the direction of giving them more minutes.

[Spree2Houston]

Randle regressing is really our biggest issue especially when we tried building around him and gave him a long term deal. As you mentioned, all the tinkering doesnt do anything cause Randle is still not the 2020/21 Randle. And maybe it was just unfair to expect him to carry the team like that. Its more on management for that. Hopefully they can realize where we stand and don't try to double down on it and make things worse.

there were signs management shouldn't have ignored. a guy breaking out at 26 is rare. so how real is it ? the complete meltdown in the playoffs. the empty arenas and players missing so often from covid to give us/him an easier schedule. unless they think he's still easily tradeable so paying him doesn't matter but i'm not so sure he is.

It’s too late. Randle is looking over his shoulder. He’s paranoid. NYC has his number now and it scares the crap out of him.

I’m not saying this out of spite. It is just what I see, but Julius has the most haunted look like a guy who knows he pulled off the heist but he still has to stand trial even if gets to keep the money. He’s shook.

TBH, the only way to repair Randle’s broken psyche is to put the ball in the hand of a floor general who tells Randle where to go. Continuing to run the offense through Randle will damage him beyond repair so I do hope Thibs does this.

Watch on YouTube

[robillionaire]

it's time to try to do the unthinkable. move randle and take kp back.....lol

I think you have to consider it.

Trade for some punk ass that didn't wanna be here? I guess if it gets rid of Randle so we can have a harmony on offense but **** kp.

I changed my stance on KP, I don’t blame him at all for not wanting to be here

[Spree2Houston]

McBride
Grimes
Barrett
KP
Toppin

At least the spacing would be better

[Gravy]

Yea, it all goes back to Dolan. He never wants a full rebuild plan where we bottom out and start from scratch. It's always remain competitive and try to rebuild at the same time. Hence we focus more on vets then youth and development.

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

We have been one of the worst teams the past 20 years anyway. The fans have dealt with some pretty bad teams before. The fans will always come back in the end. Its not so much the fans being able to deal with those things. Of course there will be some negative articles, and booing...it all happens anyway. Its if the owner can stomach those things and have the patience for it though

We've already seen Fisher, Hornacek and Fizdale all get fired in only two years for not showing results with a relatively young team. We already have a lot of youth on the team there just aren't any superstars. That's the crapshoot of the draft that GMs cant rely on. If the lottery balls got us Morant instead of RJ, Perry would be called a genius. That's all it takes to look good.

[snadler]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Getting closer to the either the league shutting down or a change in the testing philosophy like the NFL

[Gravy]

I think you have to consider it.

Trade for some punk ass that didn't wanna be here? I guess if it gets rid of Randle so we can have a harmony on offense but **** kp.

I changed my stance on KP, I don’t blame him at all for not wanting to be here

I mean he saw us draft Frank and Knox two straight years and hire Fizdale.