PG: Kemba Rises From the Ashes. Knicks Still Ass

[cgmw]

Yea, it all goes back to Dolan. He never wants a full rebuild plan where we bottom out and start from scratch. It's always remain competitive and try to rebuild at the same time. Hence we focus more on vets then youth and development.

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

We have been one of the worst teams the past 20 years anyway. The fans have dealt with some pretty bad teams before. The fans will always come back in the end. Its not so much the fans being able to deal with those things. Of course there will be some negative articles, and booing...it all happens anyway. Its if the owner can stomach those things and have the patience for it though

It's equal parts stupidity, ego, and greed. Stupidity to ignore the longterm picture in favor of immediate gratification. Ego to the point of total delusion about the potential upside of all these short-term fixes. And greed to keep ticket prices and the Forbes ranking as high as possible regardless of the actual basketball product.

There's also a good deal of trust-fund baby entitlement where Dolan takes for granted the massive passionate fanbase. Of course Knick fans would still be Knick fans if the team committed to a rebuild. I mean right now Knick fans are still crazy passionate despite 20+ years of misery. The point of a "trust the process" rebuild wouldn't be the 5 years of tanking; it would be the 20 years of having a Joel Embiid type player at the Garden every night. But that's not the real problem. The real problem is that a Joel Embiid type player wouldn't stay at the Garden for 20 years because A) nobody wants to work for Jim Dolan; and B) the Jim Dolan organization is so volatile and incompetent that it couldn't keep a player of that stature in New York anyway.

Happy Holidays!

[Gravy]

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

We have been one of the worst teams the past 20 years anyway. The fans have dealt with some pretty bad teams before. The fans will always come back in the end. Its not so much the fans being able to deal with those things. Of course there will be some negative articles, and booing...it all happens anyway. Its if the owner can stomach those things and have the patience for it though

It's equal parts stupidity, ego, and greed. Stupidity to ignore the longterm picture in favor of immediate gratification. Ego to the point of total delusion about the potential upside of all these short-term fixes. And greed to keep ticket prices and the Forbes ranking as high as possible regardless of the actual basketball product.

There's also a good deal of trust-fund baby entitlement where Dolan takes for granted the massive passionate fanbase. Of course Knick fans would still be Knick fans if the team committed to a rebuild. I mean right now Knick fans are still crazy passionate despite 20+ years of misery. The point of a "trust the process" rebuild wouldn't be the 5 years of tanking; it would be the 20 years of having a Joel Embiid type player at the Garden every night. But that's not the real problem. The real problem is that a Joel Embiid type player wouldn't stay at the Garden for 20 years because A) nobody wants to work for Jim Dolan; and B) the Jim Dolan organization is so volatile and incompetent that it couldn't keep a player of that stature in New York anyway.

Happy Holidays!

Explain the Rangers being good!

[cgmw]

We have been one of the worst teams the past 20 years anyway. The fans have dealt with some pretty bad teams before. The fans will always come back in the end. Its not so much the fans being able to deal with those things. Of course there will be some negative articles, and booing...it all happens anyway. Its if the owner can stomach those things and have the patience for it though

It's equal parts stupidity, ego, and greed. Stupidity to ignore the longterm picture in favor of immediate gratification. Ego to the point of total delusion about the potential upside of all these short-term fixes. And greed to keep ticket prices and the Forbes ranking as high as possible regardless of the actual basketball product.

There's also a good deal of trust-fund baby entitlement where Dolan takes for granted the massive passionate fanbase. Of course Knick fans would still be Knick fans if the team committed to a rebuild. I mean right now Knick fans are still crazy passionate despite 20+ years of misery. The point of a "trust the process" rebuild wouldn't be the 5 years of tanking; it would be the 20 years of having a Joel Embiid type player at the Garden every night. But that's not the real problem. The real problem is that a Joel Embiid type player wouldn't stay at the Garden for 20 years because A) nobody wants to work for Jim Dolan; and B) the Jim Dolan organization is so volatile and incompetent that it couldn't keep a player of that stature in New York anyway.

Happy Holidays!

Explain the Rangers being good!

False equivalency, but sure I’m bored.

1) Hockey isn’t basketball, and as it turns out basketball isn’t hockey;

2) the NHL is a fraction the size of the NBA with relatively lower stakes;

3) the Rangers are a fraction the size of the Knicks in terms of MSG Inc’s balance sheet;

4) Individual stars are bigger in the NBA and matter more in a 5-on-5 game with sneaker deals and no face masks; and therefore A) have a bigger affect on the game, and B) have more power to choose where they’d like to work;

5) Dolan doesn’t attend every home Rangers game while seated adjacent the bench with a Russian escort half his age; likewise I imagine “celebrity row” at a Rangers game would feature stars akin to those of a reality show on VH1.

6) I don’t know sh*t about hockey, but Dolan is a white guy from Long Island so maybe that makes him slightly less ignorant about a team whose entire fanbase are white guys from Long Island (or LI adjacent places like Westchester or Jersey)?

I mean that’s just a bunch of sh*t off the top of my head, but hey. If there are still a few people out there who need to lie to themselves that the problem is something other than ownership, good for them. Good for you. I hope you’re right. Keep hope alive, brother.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Would NYC really allow us to have a team like OKC for example without someone getting fired? How many losing seasons and 70 pt losses before fans start booing and the articles come out about how SGA is not happy, we need a new coach, when do we sign someone good etc. If they dont draft a superstar this coming draft how far will Giddy and SGA take them really?

Fans here want the playoffs. If the FO and fans could choose between the Bulls who are pretty much all vets and trades or the Pistons/OKCs of the league they would rather be in the Bulls position

We have been one of the worst teams the past 20 years anyway. The fans have dealt with some pretty bad teams before. The fans will always come back in the end. Its not so much the fans being able to deal with those things. Of course there will be some negative articles, and booing...it all happens anyway. Its if the owner can stomach those things and have the patience for it though

We've already seen Fisher, Hornacek and Fizdale all get fired in only two years for not showing results with a relatively young team. We already have a lot of youth on the team there just aren't any superstars. That's the crapshoot of the draft that GMs cant rely on. If the lottery balls got us Morant instead of RJ, Perry would be called a genius. That's all it takes to look good.

Management seems like the way bigger problem
then coaching for making bad moves, bad picks and bringing in too many high priced vets. At times those coaches did try to play the youth, but a lot of the youth wasn't even that good and the ones that are decent get traded away.

There's def a win now mentality and lack of development that has hindered us. We still haven't kept anyone we drafted since Charlie Ward

[Gravy]

We have been one of the worst teams the past 20 years anyway. The fans have dealt with some pretty bad teams before. The fans will always come back in the end. Its not so much the fans being able to deal with those things. Of course there will be some negative articles, and booing...it all happens anyway. Its if the owner can stomach those things and have the patience for it though

We've already seen Fisher, Hornacek and Fizdale all get fired in only two years for not showing results with a relatively young team. We already have a lot of youth on the team there just aren't any superstars. That's the crapshoot of the draft that GMs cant rely on. If the lottery balls got us Morant instead of RJ, Perry would be called a genius. That's all it takes to look good.

Management seems like the way bigger problem
then coaching for making bad moves, bad picks and bringing in too many high priced vets. At times those coaches did try to play the youth, but a lot of the youth wasn't even that good and the ones that are decent get traded away.

There's def a win now mentality and lack of development that has hindered us. We still haven't kept anyone we drafted since Charlie Ward

Once the coach is fired, the calls to fire the gm is next.

Are there any draft picks that would have made a big difference since Ward.. Timmy was almost universally hated here. KP's contract looks like an albatross, does anyone want to give RJ a big contract right now, Mitch? Unless we re sign someone cheap fans will be mad that we overpaid a guy that isnt a star. Then you cant really bottom out with a decent RJ + Obi + IQ leading you to the 8th seed again

[RHODEY]

Did anyone think, while watching the game, "If only RJ were here, he'd have made a big difference"

I didn't think so.

Nope, not because I think he's a bust, but because I think he'd be relegated to 4th option in this iso heavy offense.

I actually came away thinking how trash the Celtics really are ...as they had their 2 main cogs and still struggled mightily to beat our gutted squad.

Not sure whom the Celtics were missing due to covid, but they had no depth. And their two main guys do not play like teammates mostly. The majority of the time they take turns with the rock.

Right..they are as horrible as us minus the great bench.

[knickstape4ever]

Read on Twitter

[god shammgod]

Read on Twitter

jesus

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

jesus

Nailed it

[K_ick_God]

Debate is good but I'm surprised anybody cares that much about this game or losing. We have the most good young players we've had in a long time. We need to reorient the team around them.

[bleedblue3303]

It's equal parts stupidity, ego, and greed. Stupidity to ignore the longterm picture in favor of immediate gratification. Ego to the point of total delusion about the potential upside of all these short-term fixes. And greed to keep ticket prices and the Forbes ranking as high as possible regardless of the actual basketball product.

There's also a good deal of trust-fund baby entitlement where Dolan takes for granted the massive passionate fanbase. Of course Knick fans would still be Knick fans if the team committed to a rebuild. I mean right now Knick fans are still crazy passionate despite 20+ years of misery. The point of a "trust the process" rebuild wouldn't be the 5 years of tanking; it would be the 20 years of having a Joel Embiid type player at the Garden every night. But that's not the real problem. The real problem is that a Joel Embiid type player wouldn't stay at the Garden for 20 years because A) nobody wants to work for Jim Dolan; and B) the Jim Dolan organization is so volatile and incompetent that it couldn't keep a player of that stature in New York anyway.

Happy Holidays!

Explain the Rangers being good!

False equivalency, but sure I’m bored.

1) Hockey isn’t basketball, and as it turns out basketball isn’t hockey;

2) the NHL is a fraction the size of the NBA with relatively lower stakes;

3) the Rangers are a fraction the size of the Knicks in terms of MSG Inc’s balance sheet;

4) Individual stars are bigger in the NBA and matter more in a 5-on-5 game with sneaker deals and no face masks; and therefore A) have a bigger affect on the game, and B) have more power to choose where they’d like to work;

5) Dolan doesn’t attend every home Rangers game while seated adjacent the bench with a Russian escort half his age; likewise I imagine “celebrity row” at a Rangers game would feature stars akin to those of a reality show on VH1.

6) I don’t know sh*t about hockey, but Dolan is a white guy from Long Island so maybe that makes him slightly less ignorant about a team whose entire fanbase are white guys from Long Island (or LI adjacent places like Westchester or Jersey)?

I mean that’s just a bunch of sh*t off the top of my head, but hey. If there are still a few people out there who need to lie to themselves that the problem is something other than ownership, good for them. Good for you. I hope you’re right. Keep hope alive, brother.

Hockey does not attract the same number of Tourists and Corporate interests as Basketball. If not one real Knick fan showed up to the Garden. I am sure we would still be one of the most profitable teams in the NBA. The Garden is a tourist destination will always be busy for basketball. Where Knick fans can make a difference. Is by cancelling their MSG subscriptions.

Dolan is a lot of things but an idiot isn't one of them. He knows there is more money in being medicore so he stays that course. If we were horrible for 3-5 years with no names in the building he would make less money. That's why he wants Kemba out there. Has nothing to do with wins and loses.

We need an owner that is so rich that its not a business to him. It's winning driven. We need a Marc Cuban with a lot more money to buy the Knicks. Other wise I don't see anything changing ever.

[cgmw]

Explain the Rangers being good!

False equivalency, but sure I’m bored.

1) Hockey isn’t basketball, and as it turns out basketball isn’t hockey;

2) the NHL is a fraction the size of the NBA with relatively lower stakes;

3) the Rangers are a fraction the size of the Knicks in terms of MSG Inc’s balance sheet;

4) Individual stars are bigger in the NBA and matter more in a 5-on-5 game with sneaker deals and no face masks; and therefore A) have a bigger affect on the game, and B) have more power to choose where they’d like to work;

5) Dolan doesn’t attend every home Rangers game while seated adjacent the bench with a Russian escort half his age; likewise I imagine “celebrity row” at a Rangers game would feature stars akin to those of a reality show on VH1.

6) I don’t know sh*t about hockey, but Dolan is a white guy from Long Island so maybe that makes him slightly less ignorant about a team whose entire fanbase are white guys from Long Island (or LI adjacent places like Westchester or Jersey)?

I mean that’s just a bunch of sh*t off the top of my head, but hey. If there are still a few people out there who need to lie to themselves that the problem is something other than ownership, good for them. Good for you. I hope you’re right. Keep hope alive, brother.

Hockey does not attract the same number of Tourists and Corporate interests as Basketball. If not one real Knick fan showed up to the Garden. I am sure we would still be one of the most profitable teams in the NBA. The Garden is a tourist destination will always be busy for basketball. Where Knick fans can make a difference. Is by cancelling their MSG subscriptions.

Dolan is a lot of things but an idiot isn't one of them. He knows there is more money in being medicore so he stays that course. If we were horrible for 3-5 years with no names in the building he would make less money. That's why he wants Kemba out there. Has nothing to do with wins and loses.

We need an owner that is so rich that its not a business to him. It's winning driven. We need a Marc Cuban with a lot more money to buy the Knicks. Other wise I don't see anything changing ever.

And don’t forget Dolan turned the operation into a publicly traded company with shareholders who can sue him if he doesn’t try to make money and a board who could fire him.

Anyway, re: Dolan’s idiot status: If the product were basketball, Dolan would be an idiot. But the product is clearly entertainment, not basketball, and therefore Dolan is a genius because—-are we not entertained?

Great point about Cuban.

[El Poochio]

Read on Twitter

jesus

Didnt want to jesus it before you do

[Jalen Bluntson]

But $29M per year is not AVERAGE. Randle is paid a fukton of money for his abilities.

Hes making 21mil this yr, 26 next yr and 28in the 22/23 season Clyde. You are incorrect about the figures. I hate to be a stickler as if I can say hes playing well cuz he's not. But it's 30 games into his 1st yr of the contract. I doubt that it's gonna happen but it once happened. Last yr did indeed happen.

I already know how you feel about his playoff series we've already discussed this. But at the end of the day even if you knew that would happen every single yr you attempt to make him the primary option all it would prove is hes not a 1st option. It doesn't prove that......and I'll just throw a name out there... . if let's say Lillard instead were the ball dominator, took all that heat, ran the team; that last yrs version of Randle wouldn't be a decent 2nd option or excellent 3rd.

Now you can counter with his playstyle and how he needs the ball and I'll consider that, but again salary wise he's not preventing us from putting him in that scenario is what I'm saying. 21 mil is cheap for a 2nd option and only alittle expensive for a 3rd. Another way to look at it is hes putting up the raw numbers to justify his contract, but he not providing the leadership or playstyle to be a number one and if he could you'd be paying him 30per yr instead.

There's a dude talking about John Wall tonight. THATS a crazy contract.

I thought it was $117M over 4 years which averages out to $29M

Still, saying 21M is cheap for a guy who plays with so little intelligence is not something I can agree with. I don’t think he can bring you $15M in value because he is obstinately stupid about playing any other way than dominating the ball. He has regressed so greatly there’s no reconciling it any longer. He’s just terrible

It averages out to 29.5mil per over the next 4 years...with a 3mil raise this season and a 15% trade kicker. You would be correct. He will be making 32mil in the player option of his final season. Disgusting.

[evevale]

NBA scrambling to salvage a disaster of a season

[Deeeez Knicks]

We've already seen Fisher, Hornacek and Fizdale all get fired in only two years for not showing results with a relatively young team. We already have a lot of youth on the team there just aren't any superstars. That's the crapshoot of the draft that GMs cant rely on. If the lottery balls got us Morant instead of RJ, Perry would be called a genius. That's all it takes to look good.

Management seems like the way bigger problem
then coaching for making bad moves, bad picks and bringing in too many high priced vets. At times those coaches did try to play the youth, but a lot of the youth wasn't even that good and the ones that are decent get traded away.

There's def a win now mentality and lack of development that has hindered us. We still haven't kept anyone we drafted since Charlie Ward

Once the coach is fired, the calls to fire the gm is next.

Are there any draft picks that would have made a big difference since Ward.. Timmy was almost universally hated here. KP's contract looks like an albatross, does anyone want to give RJ a big contract right now, Mitch? Unless we re sign someone cheap fans will be mad that we overpaid a guy that isnt a star. Then you cant really bottom out with a decent RJ + Obi + IQ leading you to the 8th seed again

The Knicks have drafted poorly over the years and that is part of the problem too. But again that doesn’t have anything to do with the fans…just general incompetence from the front office. And fans have the right to be upset over that incompetence.

[Clyde_Style]

Hes making 21mil this yr, 26 next yr and 28in the 22/23 season Clyde. You are incorrect about the figures. I hate to be a stickler as if I can say hes playing well cuz he's not. But it's 30 games into his 1st yr of the contract. I doubt that it's gonna happen but it once happened. Last yr did indeed happen.

I already know how you feel about his playoff series we've already discussed this. But at the end of the day even if you knew that would happen every single yr you attempt to make him the primary option all it would prove is hes not a 1st option. It doesn't prove that......and I'll just throw a name out there... . if let's say Lillard instead were the ball dominator, took all that heat, ran the team; that last yrs version of Randle wouldn't be a decent 2nd option or excellent 3rd.

Now you can counter with his playstyle and how he needs the ball and I'll consider that, but again salary wise he's not preventing us from putting him in that scenario is what I'm saying. 21 mil is cheap for a 2nd option and only alittle expensive for a 3rd. Another way to look at it is hes putting up the raw numbers to justify his contract, but he not providing the leadership or playstyle to be a number one and if he could you'd be paying him 30per yr instead.

There's a dude talking about John Wall tonight. THATS a crazy contract.

I thought it was $117M over 4 years which averages out to $29M

Still, saying 21M is cheap for a guy who plays with so little intelligence is not something I can agree with. I don’t think he can bring you $15M in value because he is obstinately stupid about playing any other way than dominating the ball. He has regressed so greatly there’s no reconciling it any longer. He’s just terrible

It averages out to 29.5mil per over the next 4 years...with a 3mil raise this season and a 15% trade kicker. You would be correct. He will be making 32mil in the player option of his final season. Disgusting.

Ok

Does make him tough to move

[Chanel Bomber]

Debate is good but I'm surprised anybody cares that much about this game or losing. We have the most good young players we've had in a long time. We need to reorient the team around them.

You can make the case Gallinari-Chandler-Mozgov-Fields was better than this group.

In fact I'm making that case

[Chanel Bomber]

NBA scrambling to salvage a disaster of a season

The real disaster comes when the Nets win a chip.

I can't stand KD or Kyrie

[Jalen Bluntson]

I thought it was $117M over 4 years which averages out to $29M

Still, saying 21M is cheap for a guy who plays with so little intelligence is not something I can agree with. I don’t think he can bring you $15M in value because he is obstinately stupid about playing any other way than dominating the ball. He has regressed so greatly there’s no reconciling it any longer. He’s just terrible

It averages out to 29.5mil per over the next 4 years...with a 3mil raise this season and a 15% trade kicker. You would be correct. He will be making 32mil in the player option of his final season. Disgusting.

Ok

Does make him tough to move

Tough? I would say damn near impossible. We've had this discussion though. I am really down on the FO and the future but...anything is possible. Yay Knicks.