Its time for the Knicks to make a move on Randle before its too late.

[thebuzzardman]

You're looking at things upside down.

The Knicks aren't unable to put together a good team because the fans are impatient.

The fans are impatient because the Knicks can't put together a good team.

Blaming the fans for the Knicks repeating the same mistakes for almost two decades (besides one good season in 2012-13) is crazy. The fans don't draft busts, nor do they commit to mediocre NBA players they then expect too much from.

A group of fans hire a taxi. They are impatient, so they tell the driver to go through the red light. He doesn't want to, but he does because the fans would be unhappy. Of course he gets caught and is given a ticket.

It isn't the fans' fault the driver got the ticket — it's the driver's fault.

Actually, after almost 50 years since our last championship, the fans are NOT impatient. They're apoplectic. But it is the FO's responsibility to do the right thing. Never happened under Dolan. Now that Leon & Co. are "running the show," it's their responsibility to do the right thing. I'm not convinced they've screwed up as badly as it might seem, and they do need to show some good decision making before we panic (nobody here is panicking, right?), but they don't have a lot of time to show us they know what they're doing.

I'm not panicking, I knew we were screwed once James Dolan hired another novice with no basketball or analytics expertise in Leon Rose.

The only good decision this regime has made was to trade for Derrick Rose, who was the main catalyst behind our playoff push last season. The only other personnel decision they might have gotten right was the IQ pick, and even then, the pick was essentially made by WWW, who should have never been in a position to wield this sort of influence on a major basketball decision to begin with.


I think we're dealing with an amateur front office, which thankfully includes a couple of technocrats who will help safeguard this franchise until Leon Rose gets desperate and makes another ill-advised, franchise-crippling move before his eventual demotion. Extending Randle, and signing Fournier to that 3-year deal were the first signs.

We have to remember that Leon Rose and WWW were hired because of their theoretical "in" with STARZ and the rolodex that WWW carries around, or has convinced people he carries around, or whatever.

Mills announced to Dolan, with great confidence, that he was going to land Durant + someone.
Mills failed, but worse, failed while telling Dolan with extreme confidence, which made Dolan all bubbly inside and had him talking to the press about it. Which embarrassed him HUGELY when it didn't happen.
Mills fired as much for the embarrassment he caused Dolan as his lack of delivering.

Enter Leon.

Dolan: "I need starz"
Leon: "I have contacts. Can deliver"
Dolan "Please bring WWW and his starz contacts"
Leon: "Will do. Pay us handsomely"
Dolan: "Will do, as you will deliver starz"
Leon: "Just give us a few years for starz to align"
Dolan: "Ok, just keep attendance good, then starz"
Leon: "Ok"

Leon isn't here to develop youth, play youth, anything. He's here to deliver the star(s) that Mills failed to do. He may legitimately land that really great player that makes the Knicks good. More likely, nothing will work out and in a panic he'll overpay some "not really a star" guy to placate Dolan and survive for another couple years. As you have stated.

[Richard4444]

1) Keep in mind Randle is only tradeable by February, 2th due to his extension.

2) I can not see the Front Office downgrading (in theory) our roster if we are in contention for the play-in tournament by the trade deadline. Can anyone see that? Besides, our next 16 games are winnable (we are not facing the Top12 better campaign in that stretch). Thus, for better or worse, it's unlikely to give up the season by the trade deadline.

3) Trading Randle is not a good tanking strategy. First, it's unlikely we get a top 5 pick because there are really awful rosters around the league. Second, the team might improve if we get rid of him.

4) Randle's career numbers are not bad as the OP said. His stats from his 3 seasons as a Lakers (he did not play in his first year) are solid for a young player in a tanking team. Then, he really had a great season in New Orleans.

5) It was such an accomplishment to be an all-star in his 6th real season. Middleton took 7 seasons to be nominated and Lowry 9 seasons. I know there are mitigant factors. a) He played without a crowd; b) it was his contract year; c) because we were not in the bubble, he invested 9 months to condition his body and to train his shot; d) he did not face any pressure due to the low expectations around the team. But it was still an accomplishment. He deserved. It is not any player who could do it.

6) We don't know how good he can play around with other stars. It can be good or it can be bad. Optimistic side: With another star in the team (especially if this star has range), it would be tough to double or triple on Randle. Randle would have a lot of spacing to bully the defenders inside the paint. IMO, Randle is not a selfish player. He likes to pass the ball to someone hot. In many games this season, he barely shot. Unfortunately, in a lot of games this season, no one was hot, and he thought it was his job to chuck shots. With another star around him, he should chuck less in these situations. Pessimistic view: Randle is not a defensive specialist nether a final shot kind of player. It's tough to find a good compliment for him. I would rather have another star in the team as our first star who could be more attractive to get other stars on the team than Randle.

7) It's not easy for teams getting stars/borderline stars. Randle can be a very good target: youngish, locked for some seasons in a reasonable deal, professional. Especially if the team is from a small market and already has others borderline stars as Wolves, Kings, or Memphis. Boston needs a third banana too.

8) We also need to view Randle as an asset. His trade value must have gone down due to his underwhelming season. Usually, it's not a great deal to sell stocks when their price goes down. The whole team is playing poorly and we don't have a PG. Lately, he is in a shooting slump and very anxious. His trade value might go up. He can do a lot better. He is still young and healthy.

9) To Conclude. We will only be deciding Randle's future by the trade deadline when the situation might be diferent. I don't believe the Front office will give up the season by then. It's more likely we will cogitate about trading him only in the offseason. Randle has a lot of capacity and should have a better stretch of games now or later, a moment when his trade value could be better. Being a healthy, youngish former all-star in a reasonable deal he should attract buyers. Randle is far from the perfect name to build a team around and depending on the offer, it could be better to follow a different path. But the deal should be good (at least an expiring + FRP).

[thebuzzardman]

Play "stay in their lane" defensive oriented youth so Randle can feel like the big shot leader.
Solves defense at point of attack, adds shooting to drive and kick when he feels like it Randle
Randle we are probably stuck with for 4 years so make him happy/his best version.
I'd say get Turner to spread the floor for Randle, but Randle seems to be threatened mentally by players who are supposed to be good, who are starters.

[KnicksGadfly]

Where was this talk last year when Randle led the team to the playoffs and won MIP? Or how about the month of October when the Knicks were 5-1?
Is there any player this board wouldn't turn on in the blink of a second?

This is the reason the Knicks can never have a good team. The fan base isn't willing to be patient (unless its the likes of Frank Ntilikina). How can you ever rebuild with a fan base that turn on any and every player after a poor game? This is becoming disgraceful...

I think the thing that gets me is this…why did he stop playing defense? That’s effin unacceptable to me. I can understand his offense struggling but defense is a controllable factor. I defended him before, but the more he doesn’t play hard, the more I start wondering if it’s worth it.

I think he's being forced to play too many minutes here in NY. Thibs plays favorites and he's trying to ride Randle. But Randle doesn't have the stamina to play both sides of the court while playing this many minutes.

That’s a good point and that’s on Thibs.

[Mister Ed]

There are a multitude of reasons why we should trade Randle. Even prior to this terrible season some wanted to trade him simply off the fact that he didn't fit in the 'win' window of the rest of our young guys due to being a few years old.

Now add the fact that he's been complete garbage this year, you begin to ponder if Randle's great season last year was mostly due to having no fans in the stands. This may have seemed crazy to think last year, but honestly he's shown time and time again he is a weak player mentally, between missing free throws and the famous crumbling in the playoffs last year, one has to wonder if his success during the regular season truly was due to no fans.

It doesn't help that he also NEEDS the offense to run through him, and he ruins the flow. He also hurts us defensively as his effort from last season on that end is completely gone at this point. He completely prevents us from doing ANYTHING with him on the team until 2026.. we'll either have to trade for someone better than him(which in turn would end up with us giving up young assets and picks all just to be maybe a 1st or 2nd round exit for a few years and end up with no good young players at the end of it, for nothing) and he'll actually have to bow out and defer, which I think he wouldn't even be good as an off ball player.. or we need to trade him.

Now begs the questions, what value does Randle have at this point.. ? I honestly don't know right now, do other teams also think he's complete garbage or do they think hmm, maybe as a not #1 option he could do well again.

All I know is that if he continues to play this way, his value will only get worse, and you don't want that contract going all the way through to 2026 if he continues to play this way. Its time to cut bait early before its too late, let him go play #3 option on a team and either flourish or flounder in that situation.

I would honestly even consider trading him for.. yep, I'll say it.. someone like John Wall. Which sounds crazy but if you think about it contract wise, and how negative value Wall has(we'd need a 3rd team maybe to move Randle to, as Rockets are in rebuild mode).. if we're willing to eat this and next year's huge salary. Not to mention the fact that Wall would love to run and gun with the kids. We would end up with cap space the following summer in 2023, instead of being stuck with Randle on the books til 2026. And if Randle's value is still seen as a positive, maybe we can throw in Fournier to get out of his contract too, or even get some picks or something in return. At the end of the day it would be about moving a contract that runs through 2026, for a contract that only runs through 2023. And its Dolan's pockets not mine so idc how much more Wall gets paid over Randle.

So what do you think, should we cut bait ASAP or try to just deal with having him on this team for another 4+ years.....

Overblown. The no fans in the stand argument isn't serious. He is not complete garbage, he is struggling shooting this year. He has his pros and cons. If the ball sticks in his hands, that is the coaches fault. The one thing I will say about him - when you see a player getting an open shot its not because of the beautiful ball movement, its because Randle set a pick. No one else knows how to do that except for Taj. There is no ball movement on this team. If you can make a fair trade to better than team, meaning Wins, do it. if you want to trade him because of our Youth, that is delusional. Obi, Simms, Deuce? Remember when Mitchell, Barrett and KP were our great youth. Can a fan be fined for suggesting we trade him for Wall?

[Im Coming Home]

There are a multitude of reasons why we should trade Randle. Even prior to this terrible season some wanted to trade him simply off the fact that he didn't fit in the 'win' window of the rest of our young guys due to being a few years old.

Now add the fact that he's been complete garbage this year, you begin to ponder if Randle's great season last year was mostly due to having no fans in the stands. This may have seemed crazy to think last year, but honestly he's shown time and time again he is a weak player mentally, between missing free throws and the famous crumbling in the playoffs last year, one has to wonder if his success during the regular season truly was due to no fans.

It doesn't help that he also NEEDS the offense to run through him, and he ruins the flow. He also hurts us defensively as his effort from last season on that end is completely gone at this point. He completely prevents us from doing ANYTHING with him on the team until 2026.. we'll either have to trade for someone better than him(which in turn would end up with us giving up young assets and picks all just to be maybe a 1st or 2nd round exit for a few years and end up with no good young players at the end of it, for nothing) and he'll actually have to bow out and defer, which I think he wouldn't even be good as an off ball player.. or we need to trade him.

Now begs the questions, what value does Randle have at this point.. ? I honestly don't know right now, do other teams also think he's complete garbage or do they think hmm, maybe as a not #1 option he could do well again.

All I know is that if he continues to play this way, his value will only get worse, and you don't want that contract going all the way through to 2026 if he continues to play this way. Its time to cut bait early before its too late, let him go play #3 option on a team and either flourish or flounder in that situation.

I would honestly even consider trading him for.. yep, I'll say it.. someone like John Wall. Which sounds crazy but if you think about it contract wise, and how negative value Wall has(we'd need a 3rd team maybe to move Randle to, as Rockets are in rebuild mode).. if we're willing to eat this and next year's huge salary. Not to mention the fact that Wall would love to run and gun with the kids. We would end up with cap space the following summer in 2023, instead of being stuck with Randle on the books til 2026. And if Randle's value is still seen as a positive, maybe we can throw in Fournier to get out of his contract too, or even get some picks or something in return. At the end of the day it would be about moving a contract that runs through 2026, for a contract that only runs through 2023. And its Dolan's pockets not mine so idc how much more Wall gets paid over Randle.

So what do you think, should we cut bait ASAP or try to just deal with having him on this team for another 4+ years.....

Overblown. The no fans in the stand argument isn't serious. He is not complete garbage, he is struggling shooting this year. He has his pros and cons. If the ball sticks in his hands, that is the coaches fault. The one thing I will say about him - when you see a player getting an open shot its not because of the beautiful ball movement, its because Randle set a pick. No one else knows how to do that except for Taj. There is no ball movement on this team. If you can make a fair trade to better than team, meaning Wins, do it. if you want to trade him because of our Youth, that is delusional. Obi, Simms, Deuce? Remember when Mitchell, Barrett and KP were our great youth. Can a fan be fined for suggesting we trade him for Wall?

I really don't think the fans in the stands thing isn't serious. He's shown he's mentally weak and seems to play nervously in big moments. As someone who has anxiety, if I hypothetically was somehow in the NBA, and still had it, I'd likely play far better with no fans vs with fans. Not saying Randle has anxiety, but just being shown to be mentally weak, it could have similar effects on his game.

And he has been complete garbage, the stats reflect this. I saw a stat a few days ago, he is a -22 per game this season, that is beyond terrible.

Sure some of it is Thibs fault, he doesn't make adjustments, but you can literally tell when Randle is going to have a selfish game, or a unselfish game usually based on the first few mins of the game. And even his 'unselfish' games he holds the ball for way way way too long.

Also I really disagree on your take about our youth. Will all our youth pan out? No likely not, but they've shown when they're allowed to play together without Randle on the floor it is one of the most effective lineups out there. RJ is so much better with the kids, being able to run and gun down the court instead of Randle forcing the slow methodical poor efficient offense he causes. I'd much rather let the kids play, figure it out and learn while ending up possibly with a good pick(or maybe a worse, since like I said, they've been better with Randle on the bench) than to deal with Randle until 2026.

If Randle continues down this path of being a very poor shooter, on bad efficiency and high usage rate who kills ball movement and doesn't want to play defense, he's only going to lower his trade value even further and we'll genuinely end up stuck with him or having to give up youth just to get him off our books.

As far as the Wall trade suggestion, I thought I explained it pretty well and logically that its about the contract and how it runs out a lot sooner than Randles, while also allowing us to possibly dump another bad contract in the deal such as Fournier's and maybe even getting a pick out of it depending on how good or bad Randle's current value is.

[F N 11]

It’s already too late

[KnixtapeH20]

Where was this talk last year when Randle led the team to the playoffs and won MIP? Or how about the month of October when the Knicks were 5-1?
Is there any player this board wouldn't turn on in the blink of a second?

This is the reason the Knicks can never have a good team. The fan base isn't willing to be patient (unless its the likes of Frank Ntilikina). How can you ever rebuild with a fan base that turn on any and every player after a poor game? This is becoming disgraceful...

Blah blah blah patient really my ****? Where did his jump shot go? Patient for what exactly he's a HORRENDOUS fit on this team. He's preventing Obi from getting 30+ minutes a night bc Thibs is enamored with him no matter how bad he's struggling.

You wanna watch this man back down a defender WAITING for the double and triple team every time stalling the offense only to turn it over or take a tough contested shot attempt? It's a low percentage shot, you can't win with a guy like Randle, not as your 1st or even second option.

[Chanel Bomber]

Play "stay in their lane" defensive oriented youth so Randle can feel like the big shot leader.
Solves defense at point of attack, adds shooting to drive and kick when he feels like it Randle
Randle we are probably stuck with for 4 years so make him happy/his best version.
I'd say get Turner to spread the floor for Randle, but Randle seems to be threatened mentally by players who are supposed to be good, who are starters.

The first adjective that comes to my mind when I think of Randle is insecure.

Second is inefficient.

[Im Coming Home]

It’s already too late

I don't think it is, if we could just get an expiring for him and run away, we could be set. He has enough value still at this point, but I don't think he will at this point next year or 2 years from now if we keep him, he'll be an albatross contract.

[rajajackal]

randle is tradeable. we should and will trade randle. like always with this team, it isn't his fault he was miscast, but i see it more as rose giving him an opportunity after a great year. same goes for scott perry. the dice were rolled and things didn't work out. randle and perry are both most likely both gone this summer. not to to bring stars in, just as we make moves for players that fit with the players this front office has drafted. i can't count out RJ being used in a package either. i think this team is going to make and effort to move on from its baggage after this season

[Clyde_Style]

The franchise was stupid to give him the extension. It the FO's job now to unfck themselves.

At this point Randle is a coaching problem. Use him differently and he can be serviceable until you trade him.

Yes, Randle is playing like a lazy bum who got the bag.

But the truth is he is not really that good or else he'd start making adjustments himself. Good players work on their games and find improvements. Randle is not that smart of a player so he will flounder without the authority of a coach and a PG who tell him how to play the game. Until then, he will be a chit show.

Randle could be a nice downhill and catch and shoot guy. His ISO game is in the toilet and needs to be reined in. Do that and we can find Randle's sweet spots and make him more confident.

I would much rather see him playing the game cleanly and efficiently and losing that hangdog look and bad body language. He's dragging our guys down with his conduct.

Thibs needs to recognize this or else Randle will implode and become an albatross contract. It is fixable though which is more than I can say for many other bad contracts. Randle has value if you use him properly.

[robillionaire]

Spot on. OP was a frank stan too and called everyone dumb if you thought he sucked.

Lying. I said he had potential and people who didn't see his effectiveness on the defensive end were blind.

But this thread probably isn't for you, you think Randle needs help and just blindly support him despite being horrible again this season like his first season here.

Nah just calling it facts. Not surprised you capping about it cause that’s what you do. You blindly supported that bum and told people we didn’t know basketball if we thought he sucked. So yeah preaching patience for a trash bum who’s about to be out the league but wanting to get rid of an all star for garbage is one of the funniest takes ive seen. you’re right this thread isn’t for me. Carry on.

Very glad Leon Rose ignores people like this! My only regret is that they didn’t give him a no trade clause

[DowNY]

Where was this talk last year when Randle led the team to the playoffs and won MIP? Or how about the month of October when the Knicks were 5-1?
Is there any player this board wouldn't turn on in the blink of a second?

This is the reason the Knicks can never have a good team. The fan base isn't willing to be patient (unless its the likes of Frank Ntilikina). How can you ever rebuild with a fan base that turn on any and every player after a poor game? This is becoming disgraceful...

I’m just quoting this to state I agree with the Frank Ntilikina part. LOL

Fan base wants to be patient for obvious bums like Frank or even Knox but turn on legends like Melo or kids that show promise like RJ & Quickley. Just weird.

[Clyde_Style]

Lying. I said he had potential and people who didn't see his effectiveness on the defensive end were blind.

But this thread probably isn't for you, you think Randle needs help and just blindly support him despite being horrible again this season like his first season here.

Nah just calling it facts. Not surprised you capping about it cause that’s what you do. You blindly supported that bum and told people we didn’t know basketball if we thought he sucked. So yeah preaching patience for a trash bum who’s about to be out the league but wanting to get rid of an all star for garbage is one of the funniest takes ive seen. you’re right this thread isn’t for me. Carry on.

Very glad Leon Rose ignores people like this! My only regret is that they didn’t give him a no trade clause

[robillionaire]

If the Knicks did turn around and trade him for garbage he knows a lot of people around the league and will be sure to tell them not to come here on his way out, just like KP did but worse because he congregates with better players. They will see the way he was received here. And then he will be back to an all-star. While we enjoy our worthless expiring contract and worthless cap space and worthless marginal late first round pick like we got for KP. Is it what the Knicks deserve? Probably

The smartest thing a Knicks player can do is come in here (via draft only) and then be so bad that you don’t get to play, for 4 years. That way you maintain an air of mystique about you and everybody blames the organization for your developmental failure. It helps if you have a funny nickname or haircut or something unique about your appearance to set you apart. Like this Rokubaitis guy already has the key to the city and he doesn’t even know it yet, as long as he makes sure not to play consistent meaningful minutes stay on the bench outside of garbage time or 15 mins a game off the bench max he will be golden. Once there are expectations you are in deep trouble

[Marty McFly]

If the Knicks did turn around and trade him for garbage he knows a lot of people around the league and will be sure to tell them not to come here on his way out, just like KP did but worse because he congregates with better players. They will see the way he was received here. And then he will be back to an all-star. While we enjoy our worthless expiring contract and worthless cap space and worthless marginal late first round pick like we got for KP. Is it what the Knicks deserve? Probably

The smartest thing a Knicks player can do is come in here (via draft only) and then be so bad that you don’t get to play, for 4 years. That way you maintain an air of mystique about you and everybody blames the organization for your developmental failure. It helps if you have a funny nickname or haircut or something unique about your appearance to set you apart. Like this Rokubaitis guy already has the key to the city and he doesn’t even know it yet, as long as he makes sure not to play consistent meaningful minutes stay on the bench outside of garbage time or 15 mins a game off the bench max he will be golden. Once there are expectations you are in deep trouble

Listen I agree with a lot of this, but this idea that dudes aren't going to come to the knicks because he told them not to, is silly. No one of any consequence comes here anyway.

[robillionaire]

If the Knicks did turn around and trade him for garbage he knows a lot of people around the league and will be sure to tell them not to come here on his way out, just like KP did but worse because he congregates with better players. They will see the way he was received here. And then he will be back to an all-star. While we enjoy our worthless expiring contract and worthless cap space and worthless marginal late first round pick like we got for KP. Is it what the Knicks deserve? Probably

The smartest thing a Knicks player can do is come in here (via draft only) and then be so bad that you don’t get to play, for 4 years. That way you maintain an air of mystique about you and everybody blames the organization for your developmental failure. It helps if you have a funny nickname or haircut or something unique about your appearance to set you apart. Like this Rokubaitis guy already has the key to the city and he doesn’t even know it yet, as long as he makes sure not to play consistent meaningful minutes stay on the bench outside of garbage time or 15 mins a game off the bench max he will be golden. Once there are expectations you are in deep trouble

Listen I agree with a lot of this, but this idea that dudes aren't going to come to the knicks because he told them not to, is silly. No one of any consequence comes here anyway.

You’re probably right, maybe that’s one of the reasons though, these guys all talk to each other, I kinda thought maybe we were breaking through that last season bc it looked like RJ and IQ and them were trying to recruit every game. But we still have a long way to go.

[The Vo Show]

Where was this talk last year when Randle led the team to the playoffs and won MIP? Or how about the month of October when the Knicks were 5-1?
Is there any player this board wouldn't turn on in the blink of a second?

This is the reason the Knicks can never have a good team. The fan base isn't willing to be patient (unless its the likes of Frank Ntilikina). How can you ever rebuild with a fan base that turn on any and every player after a poor game? This is becoming disgraceful...

I think the thing that gets me is this…why did he stop playing defense? That’s effin unacceptable to me. I can understand his offense struggling but defense is a controllable factor. I defended him before, but the more he doesn’t play hard, the more I start wondering if it’s worth it.

I think he's being forced to play too many minutes here in NY. Thibs plays favorites and he's trying to ride Randle. But Randle doesn't have the stamina to play both sides of the court while playing this many minutes.

No one seems to mention he has a newborn at home too. I understand the man has money to hire help but its still probably affecting some part of his training regiment. I think Thibs just can't run the guy for 38 mins a game like last year. If he trims that down to 30-32, I think Randle and the team will look better.

[K_ick_God]

If the Knicks did turn around and trade him for garbage he knows a lot of people around the league and will be sure to tell them not to come here on his way out, just like KP did but worse because he congregates with better players. They will see the way he was received here. And then he will be back to an all-star. While we enjoy our worthless expiring contract and worthless cap space and worthless marginal late first round pick like we got for KP. Is it what the Knicks deserve? Probably

The smartest thing a Knicks player can do is come in here (via draft only) and then be so bad that you don’t get to play, for 4 years. That way you maintain an air of mystique about you and everybody blames the organization for your developmental failure. It helps if you have a funny nickname or haircut or something unique about your appearance to set you apart. Like this Rokubaitis guy already has the key to the city and he doesn’t even know it yet, as long as he makes sure not to play consistent meaningful minutes stay on the bench outside of garbage time or 15 mins a game off the bench max he will be golden. Once there are expectations you are in deep trouble

Every great player has to and does live up to pressure. Your post is specious.