76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[ITYSL]

Morey is the Billy Beane of the NBA, lauded in the analytics community as savants but unable in 15+ years as GM to even make the Finals or WS, respectively.

[raptorforlife88]

Morey is the Billy Beane of the NBA, lauded in the analytics community as savants but unable in 15+ years as GM to even make the Finals or WS, respectively.

No that doesn't make sense. Morey and other GM's all work within the same constraints.

Billy Beane is limited by his payroll and was forced to come up with alternative ways to compete. His alternative ways to compete have now become what every single team in baseball does. They're all hugely staffed with analytics. Billy Beane is still having to compete in a league without a salary cap, where the other teams got to use his methods on a 200 million dollar payroll. Boston certainly did. That's why what Billy Beane did was so impressive. He was working on a huge handicap. Not the way Morey was.

And in fairness to Morey as well, whether he succeeded or not, he ultimately also changed basketball because while the league was progressing towards this, he accelerated the shift in shot selection and now just like in baseball with moneyball, every single team utilizes the same methods of maximizing the efficiency types of shots they take.

[ITYSL]

Morey is the Billy Beane of the NBA, lauded in the analytics community as savants but unable in 15+ years as GM to even make the Finals or WS, respectively.

No that doesn't make sense. Morey and other GM's all work within the same constraints.

Billy Beane is limited by his payroll and was forced to come up with alternative ways to compete. His alternative ways to compete have now become what every single team in baseball does. They're all hugely staffed with analytics. Billy Beane is still having to compete in a league without a salary cap, where the other teams got to use his methods on a 200 million dollar payroll. Boston certainly did. That's why what Billy Beane did was so impressive. He was working on a huge handicap. Not the way Morey was.

And in fairness to Morey as well, whether he succeeded or not, he ultimately also changed basketball because while the league was progressing towards this, he accelerated the shift in shot selection and now just like in baseball with moneyball, every single team utilizes the same methods of maximizing the efficiency types of shots they take.

What I said was facts.

[raptorforlife88]

What I said was facts.

Yup. Absolutely. Without any context, nuance or understanding.

[GrindCityHustle]

Imagine the thread size when ben is actually traded.

Raps might pull another Kawhi

[Nuntius]

The ship sailed on ben being a potential shooter years ago imo. Every summer we'd see these videos of him in practice with a broken jumper, make it clear he couldn't shoot. Fans would eat it up saying "ben's come back with a jumper" but any shooting coach would see those same videos and scream "OMG, no".

Fully agreed.

That said we've seen when Ben doesn't have a big man inside he's an impact level offensive player and he's still getting better defensively, I'm not sure he's come close to peaking. Ben with some vet off ball shooters could lead to an extremely entertaining and fun low level playoff basketball...which is what 75% of GM's ultimately are more than happy to put on the floor despite fan's wet dream that all GM's want to win titles. Most just want a product that keeps the owners happy and Ben's a reasonable choice for that.

I don't believe that he has peaked as a whole either but his offensive potential is severely capped by his lack of shooting. Maybe you're right that Ben + off ball shooters is good enough for low level playoff basketball but I don't see any GM willing to sell the farm to get that outcome. Getting Simmons just to make the playoffs and lose in the first round isn't worth it. You only get him if you think that he makes you a contender and I don't see how one can realistically think that.

And we can go back and fourth on this wasting Embiid's prime, but again a bad trade here ENDS Embiid's title windows in Philly for good. They can't afford to not wait. They have been on this path of Title or BUST since Hinkie, it's way too far into "the process" to pull out and accept failure which is what every deal we've seen discussed would be. I'm sure they don't like this senario and this is by no means what Morey wanted when he took the job. But here we stand, and Morey has to wait this out as they're all in here. Anything short of a star in return for Ben + extras is failure, and frankly if they can't get a star to go with Embiid. They need to trade Embiid too.

We can agree to disagree. I believe that Embiid is good enough to lead a team with a title if he has the right supporting cast around him. Shooters like Curry, Maxey and Harris help but what Philly needs is a PG who can organize their offense, create and be able to shoot from distance. Give him that guy and I can see Philly's title path. I don't see any title path for them with Ben on the team.

[dan-man]

Good.
They really gotta trade him for whatever they can + a pick or two

Hell no. At this point, it's punishing mode and time to set a precedent.

[Nuntius]

I dont think Giannis taking 3.8 3s a game at 28% is helping the offense. Also teams Giannis taking 3s arent doing anything to the defense either.

Wide open attempts this year (6+ feet from the closest defender)
2.5 attempts per game

Open attempts this year (4-6ft from the closest defender)
1.3 attempts per game

So that's it, all of his attempts are either wide open or open. Which means defenses are playing him as a 3pt shooter. They're giving him those shots. Their close outs arent real close outs, they're the half ass kind. Im sure opposing coaches and defenses sigh a breath of relief when Giannis shoots a 3pt shot.

Shooting 3s just to shoot 3s doesnt mean defenses are going to warp their defense and fear you shooting a 3. Defenses will begin to get warped and respect the 3pt shooter when they know that player is a threat from 3. Giannis averages 25+ per game because he is very aggressive and attacks the paint constantly.

Ben is also a worse shooter than Giannis. So Ben can go out there and take 4-5 3s a game, defenses arent going to respect his shot and start warping their defense just because he is taking those shots. Because most likely Ben will shoot those 3s in the teens or low 20% range.

There are 2 major differences between Giannis and Ben.

1. The aggression. Giannis is a far more aggressive player than Ben.
2. Giannis has a makable shot outside of 10 feet. Giannis actually has a makable shot from 15ft. Defenses have to play him for that mid range shot. That is enough respect where Giannis can take advantage and attack the defense. Simmons doesnt have any kind of respectable shot outside of 5 feet. So Ben can be standing at the FT line and defenses still wont guard him.

Ben doesnt need a 3pt shot. Him shooting 3s at a 20% clip wont do anything. Ben needs to be far more aggressive attacking the basket, and he needs some kind of respectable shot at that 15-18ft range. That way teams would have to at least respect him to that distance and that would make it easier for him to be more aggressive and attack the rim.

Fair enough. I don't watch enough Milwaukee games to judge whether Giannis shooting those 3s helps their offense or not and I haven't had a deep statistical dive on it either. My opinion was mainly based on the few times I watch them when they're playing the Pacers. So, it was just the eye test and one based on a relatively small sample. I can definitely be wrong here.

I do agree with you on Ben needing to be more aggressive attacking the paint (he's a good finisher but nowhere near Giannis) and having a respectable mid-range shot.

It's worth noting there's been leaks of what Philly wanted ben to work on over the summers in the past. Finishing at the rim was first on their list. Not developing his jumper. I've always felt a tear drop from about 4-6 feet would completely change his game, much like it did for Harden when dealing with the Gobert's of the world.

I agree that a tear drop would help Ben. I also agree that working on his finishing would be a good idea but as I said, he is a good finisher as is. He simply isn't a transcendent one like Giannis and I don't think that he ever could become one.

[Nuntius]

If ben were half the shooter Giannis is I'd agree, but Giannis is closer to Curry than Ben to Giannis right now.

Sure but he'll never improve if he never tries to take those shots. And again, I'm talking solely about 3s, 15 footers would help as well. He clearly needs to add something to his offensive game.

At a certain point in life you have to stop working on your weaknesses and focus on your strengths. Ben needs to get his head on straight and work on his free throws. Find some more ways to finish at the rim and around it. Get better at cutting. Add some muscle and strength. And never think about jumpers again as long as he lives.

Again, I understand what you're saying but I simply do not think that a player can survive as a primary ball-handler in this league while not having any kind of range, not even a 10-foot jumper. Even McConnell has a 10-foot jumper.

[God Squad]

Any "real" updates on this situation? Or more nothing?

[syntax]

Sure but he'll never improve if he never tries to take those shots. And again, I'm talking solely about 3s, 15 footers would help as well. He clearly needs to add something to his offensive game.

At a certain point in life you have to stop working on your weaknesses and focus on your strengths. Ben needs to get his head on straight and work on his free throws. Find some more ways to finish at the rim and around it. Get better at cutting. Add some muscle and strength. And never think about jumpers again as long as he lives.

Again, I understand what you're saying but I simply do not think that a player can survive as a primary ball-handler in this league while not having any kind of range, not even a 10-foot jumper. Even McConnell has a 10-foot jumper.

He's better than any player on the Pacers, so there's that.

[Tomjas]

Sure but he'll never improve if he never tries to take those shots. And again, I'm talking solely about 3s, 15 footers would help as well. He clearly needs to add something to his offensive game.

At a certain point in life you have to stop working on your weaknesses and focus on your strengths. Ben needs to get his head on straight and work on his free throws. Find some more ways to finish at the rim and around it. Get better at cutting. Add some muscle and strength. And never think about jumpers again as long as he lives.

Again, I understand what you're saying but I simply do not think that a player can survive as a primary ball-handler in this league while not having any kind of range, not even a 10-foot jumper. Even McConnell has a 10-foot jumper.

TJ is a great story and I hope that he’s on the Sixers coaching staff one day but let’s get real

The Sixers have dropped from a #1 seed to a .500 team while improving their bench

They were one of the best defensive teams & are now awful

They were one of the best rebounding teams & are now awful

Etc etc

ONE DIFFERENCE

People are fascinated with Simmons for whatever reason but the absolute dumbest argument anyone can make is that he doesn’t contribute to wins

[Nuntius]

At a certain point in life you have to stop working on your weaknesses and focus on your strengths. Ben needs to get his head on straight and work on his free throws. Find some more ways to finish at the rim and around it. Get better at cutting. Add some muscle and strength. And never think about jumpers again as long as he lives.

Again, I understand what you're saying but I simply do not think that a player can survive as a primary ball-handler in this league while not having any kind of range, not even a 10-foot jumper. Even McConnell has a 10-foot jumper.

He's better than any player on the Pacers, so there's that.

Absolutely. I don't think that any team is vying to be the Pacers, though.

[dhsilv2]

The ship sailed on ben being a potential shooter years ago imo. Every summer we'd see these videos of him in practice with a broken jumper, make it clear he couldn't shoot. Fans would eat it up saying "ben's come back with a jumper" but any shooting coach would see those same videos and scream "OMG, no".

Fully agreed.

That said we've seen when Ben doesn't have a big man inside he's an impact level offensive player and he's still getting better defensively, I'm not sure he's come close to peaking. Ben with some vet off ball shooters could lead to an extremely entertaining and fun low level playoff basketball...which is what 75% of GM's ultimately are more than happy to put on the floor despite fan's wet dream that all GM's want to win titles. Most just want a product that keeps the owners happy and Ben's a reasonable choice for that.

I don't believe that he has peaked as a whole either but his offensive potential is severely capped by his lack of shooting. Maybe you're right that Ben + off ball shooters is good enough for low level playoff basketball but I don't see any GM willing to sell the farm to get that outcome. Getting Simmons just to make the playoffs and lose in the first round isn't worth it. You only get him if you think that he makes you a contender and I don't see how one can realistically think that.

And we can go back and fourth on this wasting Embiid's prime, but again a bad trade here ENDS Embiid's title windows in Philly for good. They can't afford to not wait. They have been on this path of Title or BUST since Hinkie, it's way too far into "the process" to pull out and accept failure which is what every deal we've seen discussed would be. I'm sure they don't like this senario and this is by no means what Morey wanted when he took the job. But here we stand, and Morey has to wait this out as they're all in here. Anything short of a star in return for Ben + extras is failure, and frankly if they can't get a star to go with Embiid. They need to trade Embiid too.

We can agree to disagree. I believe that Embiid is good enough to lead a team with a title if he has the right supporting cast around him. Shooters like Curry, Maxey and Harris help but what Philly needs is a PG who can organize their offense, create and be able to shoot from distance. Give him that guy and I can see Philly's title path. I don't see any title path for them with Ben on the team.

Two things.

1. Spurs traded for Derozan with zero dreams of being a contender. They just didn't want to tank. So we already have established presedent that smaller market teams don't want to tank after their stars ask out and want to be as competitive as they can be. So this idea that you only trade for Ben, who the 76ers are looking to trade for a star demanding out, makes not real sense, but more importantly. Historical comps don't match up with this idea either.

2. Embiid might be good enough to win if the nets and bucks weren't in their way. But I think we're pretty far apart on how good Ben is even for Philly where his fit is poor. Keep in mind Ben has a winning record in the playoffs when Embiid is off the floor. Ben's been an absolute star in most of his first round playoff matchups.

[dhsilv2]

Fair enough. I don't watch enough Milwaukee games to judge whether Giannis shooting those 3s helps their offense or not and I haven't had a deep statistical dive on it either. My opinion was mainly based on the few times I watch them when they're playing the Pacers. So, it was just the eye test and one based on a relatively small sample. I can definitely be wrong here.

I do agree with you on Ben needing to be more aggressive attacking the paint (he's a good finisher but nowhere near Giannis) and having a respectable mid-range shot.

It's worth noting there's been leaks of what Philly wanted ben to work on over the summers in the past. Finishing at the rim was first on their list. Not developing his jumper. I've always felt a tear drop from about 4-6 feet would completely change his game, much like it did for Harden when dealing with the Gobert's of the world.

I agree that a tear drop would help Ben. I also agree that working on his finishing would be a good idea but as I said, he is a good finisher as is. He simply isn't a transcendent one like Giannis and I don't think that he ever could become one.

Ben with 5 more pounds of muscle would be a monster at the rim. For all the people claiming he hasn't developed, clearly false, the one area that he really hasn't focused on his adding the size to bang inside. He doesn't have to get Giannis sized but a few more pounds and he'd really be something driving. Throw in a few counters like a tear drop he could destroy teams trying to "give him space". I don't know that he sees himself as that guy, but just being a bit better there will tighten spacing as defenders can't give him as much space if he can attack it even a little more. Same reason D Wade had guys face guarding him at the 3 point line despite a D Wade 3 being the best outcome of him touching the ball.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Morey is the Billy Beane of the NBA, lauded in the analytics community as savants but unable in 15+ years as GM to even make the Finals or WS, respectively.

No that doesn't make sense. Morey and other GM's all work within the same constraints.

Billy Beane is limited by his payroll and was forced to come up with alternative ways to compete. His alternative ways to compete have now become what every single team in baseball does. They're all hugely staffed with analytics. Billy Beane is still having to compete in a league without a salary cap, where the other teams got to use his methods on a 200 million dollar payroll. Boston certainly did. That's why what Billy Beane did was so impressive. He was working on a huge handicap. Not the way Morey was.

And in fairness to Morey as well, whether he succeeded or not, he ultimately also changed basketball because while the league was progressing towards this, he accelerated the shift in shot selection and now just like in baseball with moneyball, every single team utilizes the same methods of maximizing the efficiency types of shots they take.

What I said was facts.

Morey’s rockets were very likely a CP3 hammy injury away from a title. And that’s against the KD warriors that no other team had a remote chance against when their stars were healthy.

Also, during Morey’s entire rockets tenure in those 13 years there is only one team that has more regular season wins (the spurs), and only seven teams with more playoff wins (even though he was never allowed to actually tank and had to keep the rockets competitive while rebuilding). And he built a perennial contender.

You can debate the potential outcome if CP3 doesn’t get hurt, but the rest are all factzz lol. Morey can be a stubborn jerk at times, but he’s at worst a top 5 GM in nba if allowed to do his job.

[Nuntius]

Two things.

1. Spurs traded for Derozan with zero dreams of being a contender. They just didn't want to tank. So we already have established presedent that smaller market teams don't want to tank after their stars ask out and want to be as competitive as they can be. So this idea that you only trade for Ben, who the 76ers are looking to trade for a star demanding out, makes not real sense, but more importantly. Historical comps don't match up with this idea either.

The Spurs traded for DeRozan because they had to trade Kawhi. I don't see any team being under that kind of pressure to trade one of their players. The only team that seems to be under pressure to trade one of their players are the Sixers themselves.

2. Embiid might be good enough to win if the nets and bucks weren't in their way. But I think we're pretty far apart on how good Ben is even for Philly where his fit is poor. Keep in mind Ben has a winning record in the playoffs when Embiid is off the floor. Ben's been an absolute star in most of his first round playoff matchups.

We shouldn't be assuming that any team is fully healthy going into the post-season. We never know who gets hit by injuries or Covid. Get Embiid some help now and the Sixers have a chance for a title. Fail to get Embiid some help now and their title window is closed until the next process.

[dhsilv2]

Two things.

1. Spurs traded for Derozan with zero dreams of being a contender. They just didn't want to tank. So we already have established presedent that smaller market teams don't want to tank after their stars ask out and want to be as competitive as they can be. So this idea that you only trade for Ben, who the 76ers are looking to trade for a star demanding out, makes not real sense, but more importantly. Historical comps don't match up with this idea either.

The Spurs traded for DeRozan because they had to trade Kawhi. I don't see any team being under that kind of pressure to trade one of their players. The only team that seems to be under pressure to trade one of their players are the Sixers themselves.

2. Embiid might be good enough to win if the nets and bucks weren't in their way. But I think we're pretty far apart on how good Ben is even for Philly where his fit is poor. Keep in mind Ben has a winning record in the playoffs when Embiid is off the floor. Ben's been an absolute star in most of his first round playoff matchups.

We shouldn't be assuming that any team is fully healthy going into the post-season. We never know who gets hit by injuries or Covid. Get Embiid some help now and the Sixers have a chance for a title. Fail to get Embiid some help now and their title window is closed until the next process.

This is why Morey is waiting. There's at least a 60% chance of this happening in the near future (before the allstar break for the 22 season). And Morey has clearly got the full support if not demand from ownership to take nothing less until then. It's the smart play here even if it doesn't work.

And I'm just too low on Harris for the 76ers to have a chance even with injuries to others to win without someone at least as good as him and I've not seen that either.

[rzzzzz]

Umm the 76ers tried to force Simmons back on the court and it’s obvious that Ben has no problem going full Joker and burning a pile of money. At this point fining him isn’t going to work and Sixers are only hurting themselves. Okay which player is going to be available in the summer that’s not available now? You do realize that if this lasts until the summer Simmon’s contract is seen as an albatross not an asset. You have a guy who hasn’t played in a year, GMs will question whether he even wants to play basketball and has admitted mental health issues. Sixers are going to have to give up all their assets and mortgage their future if they’re looking to get back a superstar….. the team will actually be left in a worse position than if they had just traded Simmons earlier this year.

So what is Ben doing back in Philly these past couple of months? Enjoying the rays? Which player is going to be available? Which team is going to end up crashing and burning by the end of the season? Stuff happens. We do have an albatross contract on the roster, but it ain’t Ben’s. When you make the all star game 3 years in a row by 25, plus are runner-up all defender, you’re a pretty damn elite athlete. There are teams who maybe a player away from contending (like Philly) and small market teams who are not likely to naturally attract the top free agents. But if you can trade for a top player signed to long contract, it’s like the same thing. Personally, I’d rather have Morey roll the dice on a promising prospect than an aging superstar. And finally, while I think this guy has some personality issues, he is not copping to mental health issues. He and Rich Paul got the term “mentally PREPARED” straight off the Players Association agreement. Cause despite how much money he’s already gotten, apparently he’s feeling the pinch and he want to be payed while he refuses to play for the Sixers. Guarantee that if he somehow got on the Lakers of Dubs you ain’t hearing mental anything from him.

[Nuntius]

It's worth noting there's been leaks of what Philly wanted ben to work on over the summers in the past. Finishing at the rim was first on their list. Not developing his jumper. I've always felt a tear drop from about 4-6 feet would completely change his game, much like it did for Harden when dealing with the Gobert's of the world.

I agree that a tear drop would help Ben. I also agree that working on his finishing would be a good idea but as I said, he is a good finisher as is. He simply isn't a transcendent one like Giannis and I don't think that he ever could become one.

Ben with 5 more pounds of muscle would be a monster at the rim. For all the people claiming he hasn't developed, clearly false, the one area that he really hasn't focused on his adding the size to bang inside. He doesn't have to get Giannis sized but a few more pounds and he'd really be something driving. Throw in a few counters like a tear drop he could destroy teams trying to "give him space". I don't know that he sees himself as that guy, but just being a bit better there will tighten spacing as defenders can't give him as much space if he can attack it even a little more. Same reason D Wade had guys face guarding him at the 3 point line despite a D Wade 3 being the best outcome of him touching the ball.

I agree with your point. Yes, Ben would benefit a lot by becoming a better finisher and, especially, by learning a few counters and shots in the in-between area (paint but non-RA). I don't think that he'd ever become a transcendent finisher, though, and his utter lack of shooting kind of necessitates that if he wants to be his team's #1 offensive option.