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Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST

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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#221 » by Manocad » Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:44 pm

Rodman wrote:I must give Casey credit where due I think it was an excellent idea for him to play Garza and Lyles at the same time it gave them much-needed size and they were both effective

Yep. Lyles played some solid D and was much more active with his hands which leads me to believe that, like Bey, it's an effort issue. Garza obviously doesn't have quick lateral movement but he does a great job holding his position when someone bodies him up and doesn't get slap happy with his hands. Garza unfortunately has a tough assignment playing aggressive defense because A) he obviously defends inside a lot where there's going to be contact, B) he's a rookie so he's not going to get the benefit of any calls, and C) he's a Piston so he's REALLY not going to get the benefit of any calls. I wonder if what looks like poor defense on his part is at times just trying to avoid a foul.
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#222 » by 440BB » Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:06 pm

It has been hard watching our players get hit once, twice and not get many calls. I don't recall it ever seeming this lopsided.
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#223 » by Manocad » Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:23 pm

440BB wrote:It has been hard watching our players get hit once, twice and not get many calls. I don't recall it ever seeming this lopsided.

From a free throws standpoint it didn't appear lopsided. But all the ridiculous non-shooting fouls on Pistons players leading to foul trouble while on the other end guys are getting hammered and losing the ball or turning it over is where it consistently appears to be one-sided. Like I've posted before, on one end you've got Pistons getting whistled the split second they make a poke at the ball while bodies are colliding on the other end and nothing gets called.
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#224 » by Billl » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:01 pm

Manocad wrote:
440BB wrote:It has been hard watching our players get hit once, twice and not get many calls. I don't recall it ever seeming this lopsided.

From a free throws standpoint it didn't appear lopsided. But all the ridiculous non-shooting fouls on Pistons players leading to foul trouble while on the other end guys are getting hammered and losing the ball or turning it over is where it consistently appears to be one-sided. Like I've posted before, on one end you've got Pistons getting whistled the split second they make a poke at the ball while bodies are colliding on the other end and nothing gets called.


The pistons need to adapt. Reaches are often being called. Charges, moving screens, clearing space with your off arm - all a priority for the refs. What isn't being typically called? - body contact down low. Most of the vets have figured this out and are constantly nudging and bumping and knocking guys off their path/drive. We've got too many guys playing defense with their hands.

Also, these unforced, easy switches are killing us. The league is rewarding tight, man to man, physical defense right now. We're giving guys open catches with a guy switching onto them and they are basically getting a running start at the basket. And then we have a weakside guy trying to rotate and get a hand in to knock the ball away. If the refs are going to let you body up guys and be physical on the perimeter, why on earth are we giving up easy perimeter catches? If you are up on a guy, the refs are basically allowing you to ride him if he goes anywhere near the lane. You have to be tight on the guy for them to give you that though.
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#225 » by FloridaMan78 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:28 pm

Billl wrote:
Manocad wrote:
440BB wrote:It has been hard watching our players get hit once, twice and not get many calls. I don't recall it ever seeming this lopsided.

From a free throws standpoint it didn't appear lopsided. But all the ridiculous non-shooting fouls on Pistons players leading to foul trouble while on the other end guys are getting hammered and losing the ball or turning it over is where it consistently appears to be one-sided. Like I've posted before, on one end you've got Pistons getting whistled the split second they make a poke at the ball while bodies are colliding on the other end and nothing gets called.


The pistons need to adapt. Reaches are often being called. Charges, moving screens, clearing space with your off arm - all a priority for the refs. What isn't being typically called? - body contact down low. Most of the vets have figured this out and are constantly nudging and bumping and knocking guys off their path/drive. We've got too many guys playing defense with their hands.

Also, these unforced, easy switches are killing us. The league is rewarding tight, man to man, physical defense right now. We're giving guys open catches with a guy switching onto them and they are basically getting a running start at the basket. And then we have a weakside guy trying to rotate and get a hand in to knock the ball away. If the refs are going to let you body up guys and be physical on the perimeter, why on earth are we giving up easy perimeter catches? If you are up on a guy, the refs are basically allowing you to ride him if he goes anywhere near the lane. You have to be tight on the guy for them to give you that though.


Yea Weaver built this team to be a switchable philosophy defense and its biting them in the ass now. That and they have a bunch of kids that take more time to learn and adjust. They’ve been spending all that time learning that scheme and now need to change it lol.

This reminds me of that Suns game where Chris Paul got Cade and Killian in foul trouble in minutes. They learning, just gonna take time.
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#226 » by Billl » Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:04 pm

FloridaMan78 wrote:
Billl wrote:
Manocad wrote:From a free throws standpoint it didn't appear lopsided. But all the ridiculous non-shooting fouls on Pistons players leading to foul trouble while on the other end guys are getting hammered and losing the ball or turning it over is where it consistently appears to be one-sided. Like I've posted before, on one end you've got Pistons getting whistled the split second they make a poke at the ball while bodies are colliding on the other end and nothing gets called.


The pistons need to adapt. Reaches are often being called. Charges, moving screens, clearing space with your off arm - all a priority for the refs. What isn't being typically called? - body contact down low. Most of the vets have figured this out and are constantly nudging and bumping and knocking guys off their path/drive. We've got too many guys playing defense with their hands.

Also, these unforced, easy switches are killing us. The league is rewarding tight, man to man, physical defense right now. We're giving guys open catches with a guy switching onto them and they are basically getting a running start at the basket. And then we have a weakside guy trying to rotate and get a hand in to knock the ball away. If the refs are going to let you body up guys and be physical on the perimeter, why on earth are we giving up easy perimeter catches? If you are up on a guy, the refs are basically allowing you to ride him if he goes anywhere near the lane. You have to be tight on the guy for them to give you that though.


Yea Weaver built this team to be a switchable philosophy defense and its biting them in the ass now. That and they have a bunch of kids that take more time to learn and adjust. They’ve been spending all that time learning that scheme and now need to change it lol.

This reminds me of that Suns game where Chris Paul got Cade and Killian in foul trouble in minutes. They learning, just gonna take time.


The problem isn't getting guys who have the ability to switch and defend multiple positions. The problem is how easily they are giving up the switch and how casually they execute it. Good offensive teams force switches to create favorable mismatches. You don't want to concede that on every play like the pistons are doing. It seems like every pick or screen has the pistons falling way back off their man and casually crossing in space to get to their new assignment. They almost never show hard, trap or do anything else to make the ball handler the least bit uncomfortable. The whole benefit of having guys how can guard multiple positions is that you can keep the offense guessing about how you are going to defend a play. Those Golden State teams that created this trend didn't just switch everything. They trapped and pressured and then if you beat that pressure, then they still had a decent chance that the mismatch wasn't that bad. It's not like they just switch Curry onto a center on every pick and roll like we seem to be doing.

This game was a good example about how easy it is for a pro to pick apart a predictable defense. The heat double and tripled cade the second he got the ball. It took him almost no time to realize what was going to happen every play, and he immediately adapted. He moved the ball quickly and we consistently ended up with 4 on 3 or 3 on 2 type situations on the floor and got tons of open looks.
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#227 » by zeebneeb » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:06 pm

Billl wrote:
FloridaMan78 wrote:
Billl wrote:
The pistons need to adapt. Reaches are often being called. Charges, moving screens, clearing space with your off arm - all a priority for the refs. What isn't being typically called? - body contact down low. Most of the vets have figured this out and are constantly nudging and bumping and knocking guys off their path/drive. We've got too many guys playing defense with their hands.

Also, these unforced, easy switches are killing us. The league is rewarding tight, man to man, physical defense right now. We're giving guys open catches with a guy switching onto them and they are basically getting a running start at the basket. And then we have a weakside guy trying to rotate and get a hand in to knock the ball away. If the refs are going to let you body up guys and be physical on the perimeter, why on earth are we giving up easy perimeter catches? If you are up on a guy, the refs are basically allowing you to ride him if he goes anywhere near the lane. You have to be tight on the guy for them to give you that though.


Yea Weaver built this team to be a switchable philosophy defense and its biting them in the ass now. That and they have a bunch of kids that take more time to learn and adjust. They’ve been spending all that time learning that scheme and now need to change it lol.

This reminds me of that Suns game where Chris Paul got Cade and Killian in foul trouble in minutes. They learning, just gonna take time.


The problem isn't getting guys who have the ability to switch and defend multiple positions. The problem is how easily they are giving up the switch and how casually they execute it. Good offensive teams force switches to create favorable mismatches. You don't want to concede that on every play like the pistons are doing. It seems like every pick or screen has the pistons falling way back off their man and casually crossing in space to get to their new assignment. They almost never show hard, trap or do anything else to make the ball handler the least bit uncomfortable. The whole benefit of having guys how can guard multiple positions is that you can keep the offense guessing about how you are going to defend a play. Those Golden State teams that created this trend didn't just switch everything. They trapped and pressured and then if you beat that pressure, then they still had a decent chance that the mismatch wasn't that bad. It's not like they just switch Curry onto a center on every pick and roll like we seem to be doing.

This game was a good example about how easy it is for a pro to pick apart a predictable defense. The heat double and tripled cade the second he got the ball. It took him almost no time to realize what was going to happen every play, and he immediately adapted. He moved the ball quickly and we consistently ended up with 4 on 3 or 3 on 2 type situations on the floor and got tons of open looks.
I've been thinking a lot about this game, and after having rewatched it, it really, really shows why Cade was the #1 pick, and it shows he really understands the happenings on the floor, from minute to minute. He picked apart the defense with his passing, but also drew the defenses thrown at him which were double, and sometimes triple teams, as far from the offense as possible.

Other players often dribble in a panic mode to create space for themsleves to escape, while Cade was dribbling away from the double, to create space for his teammates, so when he did throw the pass, it was impossible for the defense to recover. You can see what he's doing with his eyes, and the way he positions his body. It was amazing to realize exactly what he was doing, and the sheer amount of open floor he gave his team to operate in.

With that said, he is absolutely good enough at both playmaking, and ball handling to be the lead gaurd, so Hayes has become redundant in terms of passing, and ball handling. It was the first time I could see Cade playing with a true shooting gaurd, instead of a secondary playmaker like Hayes. Imagine Cade, with his court vision, and ability to break down double teams, and get into the lane at will, with a true blue SG. Teams would never be able to sag off, or completely abandon the other gaurd position as Cade would wreck them from three different levels.

If they double, with a Bradley Beal type on the floor, he would destroy them when they try and trap Cade.

Hayes has to become insanely more aggressive on offense, or he may end up being replaced, even though I really like his defense, and passing ability, as well as his passion. Cade sees the whole floor, not just the person he wants to pass to, and he realized quickly what was happening last night. He could have forced up some shots, but moving even an inch into the lane drew the triple team.

You give Cade an aggressive SG, and a leaping role to the basket bigman, and he will consume teams with his playmaking.

Cade is a walking triple double because of this.
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#228 » by whitehops » Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:00 am

zeebneeb wrote:You give Cade an aggressive SG, and a leaping role to the basket bigman, and he will consume teams with his playmaking.


an athletic roll big is nice to have in the pick and roll game but against trapping defenses a big like olynyk (can't wait til he gets back!) is huge. when both defenders trap the ball handler (cade) then a split pass/slip pass to the big on a short roll is a huge counter. olynyk is a good enough ball handler/scorer passer to be effective in that role, but right now isaiah stewart catches the ball around the free throw line and just freezes. it lets the defense recover and just makes for ugly offense.

hopefully when we get olynyk back it deters teams from defending us like the heat did yesterday.

and yeah having a player beside cade that can really take advantage of the space when our offense gets a 4v3 scenario would be huge as well.
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#229 » by vege » Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:27 am

whitehops wrote: but right now isaiah stewart catches the ball around the free throw line and just freezes. it lets the defense recover and just makes for ugly offense.


Most of the time he fumble the ball
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Re: Game 29: Heat (18-12) @ Pistons (4-24) - Dec. 19 6:00 PM EST 

Post#230 » by Sort » Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:52 pm

zeebneeb - completely agree for what Pistons need with Cade in terms of an aggressive two and athletic, rolling five. I don't actually see a way to trade for Myles Turner that makes sense for both teams, but I think he would transform the Pistons into basic competency most nights and given some time, Turner would have career numbers here.

If Killian is to remain the starting two guard, he doesn't necessarily have to get 20 every night, but he does need to act like he will.

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