2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 4)

[PhilBlackson]

I think its the complete opposite. Someone that has more talent around them makes it a little easier for them to put up numbers as you arent the other teams main focus.

Not at all.

Hence why when star players come together their individual numbers tend to drop. Established hierarchies mean there are players that are ahead of others in the pecking order which means less shot opportunities as the offensive schemes are drawn up to cater to their more established players.

It's why people always say things like "yeah but he's putting those numbers up on a bad team...". The pecking order doesn't really exist and that team is trying to showcase that player because there aren't superior players in their way and as many egos to contend with. How many other double digit scorers are there on the roster to contend with for touches & shots?! Also is that player generating their own offense or is it being done for them?!

Just putting up guys with similar numbers is far too simplistic without context of how it's achieved.

like rebounds when no center plays..

Sure but FOUR more rebounds per game is pretty substantial lol

[KokoKaizer]

Can we just stop to promote our own rookies ?

Yeah Barnes is good, Wagner too. And Mobley, And Giddey, And Sengun, etc...

Just enjoy every one of them.

Great class and that's all that matters

[basketballRob]

Not at all.

Hence why when star players come together their individual numbers tend to drop. Established hierarchies mean there are players that are ahead of others in the pecking order which means less shot opportunities as the offensive schemes are drawn up to cater to their more established players.

It's why people always say things like "yeah but he's putting those numbers up on a bad team...". The pecking order doesn't really exist and that team is trying to showcase that player because there aren't superior players in their way and as many egos to contend with. How many other double digit scorers are there on the roster to contend with for touches & shots?! Also is that player generating their own offense or is it being done for them?!

Just putting up guys with similar numbers is far too simplistic without context of how it's achieved.

Which is why I put up percentages. Yes, there are players that put up numbers on bad teams, but look at their efficiency. Its easier to put up numbers when there are 2-3 other player on your team that defenses have to worry about. More open shots for said player, where as when you are the main focus, defenses scheme around how to stop you first.

Of course I know where you're trying to lead this.....to Wagner lol and of course he 100% deserves his props, no one disputes that.

He's very good at what he does, smart player, knows his spots, how to get to them, still really versatile. He's the reason why the Magic aren't getting bagged on for having a bad draft because Suggs on the otherhand *ahem*....we'll just leave that alone and give him more time because at least his defence looks good.

BUT I don't like simple accounting stats without context because I 1000% believe if either of Mobley or Barnes were on more depleted teams like ORL, DET....that their numbers would be higher across the board too. I don't mean efficiency because a lot of that will come with improving shooting mechanics and learning their spots as Franz has done/is doing but production wise their numbers would be higher and of course if they were putting up 20+ppg then no one is even comparing Wagner's numbers to theirs but the situations they are in do dictate a lot and people do realize that as those 2 improve their mechanics, get to know their spots better and move up the totem pole in the team's heirarchy that they are/will be superior prospects, there's no shame in that and doesn't mean Franz wasn't a GREAT pickup for ORL, will only hope that as Suggs improves his shot and finds his spots that his numbers will improve too...

Barnes has had just as much if not more opportunity to put up stats than Wagner. He plays more minutes and has close to the same usage. He also has better teammates to pass to. Wagner was double-teamed in the last game.

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[basketballRob]

Not at all.

Hence why when star players come together their individual numbers tend to drop. Established hierarchies mean there are players that are ahead of others in the pecking order which means less shot opportunities as the offensive schemes are drawn up to cater to their more established players.

It's why people always say things like "yeah but he's putting those numbers up on a bad team...". The pecking order doesn't really exist and that team is trying to showcase that player because there aren't superior players in their way and as many egos to contend with. How many other double digit scorers are there on the roster to contend with for touches & shots?! Also is that player generating their own offense or is it being done for them?!

Just putting up guys with similar numbers is far too simplistic without context of how it's achieved.

like rebounds when no center plays..

Sure but FOUR more rebounds per game is pretty substantial lol

He plays PF so those are average stats for that many minutes.

No one in Orlando thinks we had a bad draft, just responded to something you posted earlier.

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[Madhouse]

East Rookie of the Month

16ppg 52%FG 36%3pt 8reb 4ast 1.6blk
17ppg 48%FG 40%3pt 6reb 4ast 1.3 stls
18ppg 42%FG 40%3pt 6reb 6ast 1.7stl

Who yall got?

whoever has the better Ast/TO ratio out of player A and B.

[PhilBlackson]

Which is why I put up percentages. Yes, there are players that put up numbers on bad teams, but look at their efficiency. Its easier to put up numbers when there are 2-3 other player on your team that defenses have to worry about. More open shots for said player, where as when you are the main focus, defenses scheme around how to stop you first.

Of course I know where you're trying to lead this.....to Wagner lol and of course he 100% deserves his props, no one disputes that.

He's very good at what he does, smart player, knows his spots, how to get to them, still really versatile. He's the reason why the Magic aren't getting bagged on for having a bad draft because Suggs on the otherhand *ahem*....we'll just leave that alone and give him more time because at least his defence looks good.

BUT I don't like simple accounting stats without context because I 1000% believe if either of Mobley or Barnes were on more depleted teams like ORL, DET....that their numbers would be higher across the board too. I don't mean efficiency because a lot of that will come with improving shooting mechanics and learning their spots as Franz has done/is doing but production wise their numbers would be higher and of course if they were putting up 20+ppg then no one is even comparing Wagner's numbers to theirs but the situations they are in do dictate a lot and people do realize that as those 2 improve their mechanics, get to know their spots better and move up the totem pole in the team's heirarchy that they are/will be superior prospects, there's no shame in that and doesn't mean Franz wasn't a GREAT pickup for ORL, will only hope that as Suggs improves his shot and finds his spots that his numbers will improve too...

Barnes has had just as much if not more opportunity to put up stats than Wagner. He plays more minutes and has close to the same usage. He also has better teammates to pass to. Wagner was double-teamed in the last game.

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Again you skip over team hierarchy/pecking order which is convenient so saying they have same opportunity is factually untrue lol

If you want to dispute Barnes' assist numbers in comparison to Franz sure (although there is advanced data that shows Scottie should average more along the lines of 6-7apg but his teammates frequently blow wide open shots, it's quite sad/frustrating as a fan to watch) BUT...

https://www.lineups.com/nba/lineups/toronto-raptors
https://www.lineups.com/nba/lineups/orlando-magic

EVERY single player in the Raptors' starting lineup (Fred, Pascal, OG and Trent) ALL average more PPG and ALL average more shots attempts per game than Barnes. He is literally the LAST option in his starting line up and also produces the vast majority of his own offense yet STILL does more than Franz.

Franz on the other hand is SECOND only to Cole Anthony who has been out of your lineup which then pushes Franz to the TOP of the pecking order yet he's still slightly behind so yeah those numbers aren't created equally and are not the same thing.

[reanimator]

Not at all.

Hence why when star players come together their individual numbers tend to drop. Established hierarchies mean there are players that are ahead of others in the pecking order which means less shot opportunities as the offensive schemes are drawn up to cater to their more established players.

It's why people always say things like "yeah but he's putting those numbers up on a bad team...". The pecking order doesn't really exist and that team is trying to showcase that player because there aren't superior players in their way and as many egos to contend with. How many other double digit scorers are there on the roster to contend with for touches & shots?! Also is that player generating their own offense or is it being done for them?!

Just putting up guys with similar numbers is far too simplistic without context of how it's achieved.

BUT I don't like simple accounting stats without context because I 1000% believe if either of Mobley or Barnes were on more depleted teams like ORL, DET....that their numbers would be higher across the board too.

Volume stats perhaps but surely you don't think their efficiency, turnovers and defensive metrics wouldn't take a hit if you asked them to do more onball while being gameplanned against with less talent around them including mediocre coaches.

[PhilBlackson]

BUT I don't like simple accounting stats without context because I 1000% believe if either of Mobley or Barnes were on more depleted teams like ORL, DET....that their numbers would be higher across the board too.

Volume stats perhaps but surely you don't think their efficiency, turnovers and defensive metrics wouldn't take a hit if you asked them to do more onball while being gameplanned against with less talent around them including mediocre coaches.

Of course that's completely fair, it's why I think people are being a bit tough on Cade for some of those things but nonetheless their volume stats would go up past Wagner's and again I think Franz was a GREAT pickup by ORL but I think the comparison lacks context that attempts to skew perception of how close these players are as prospects when in reality if given similar circumstance I don't think the numbers would be anywhere near as close as they appear to be now.

[QingJames]

Franz or Cade could win rookie of the month over Barnes and both would be deserving. Both have been really good and Franz looks much further along for the pros than anyone thought. BUT I think the fans of 29/30 NBA fanbases would much rather have Barnes going forward. There's no package Orlando could put together to turn Suggs and Franz into Barnes. Franz can be Hayward which is a solid and impactful player but I don't really see his ceiling being higher than that. But Franz can absolutely win ROY given how good he is already.

[Madhouse]

Franz or Cade could win rookie of the month over Barnes and both would be deserving. Both have been really good and Franz looks much further along for the pros than anyone thought. BUT I think the fans of 29/30 NBA fanbases would much rather have Barnes going forward. There's no package Orlando could put together to turn Suggs and Franz into Barnes. Franz can be Hayward which is a solid and impactful player but I don't really see his ceiling being higher than that. But Franz can absolutely win ROY given how good he is already.

don't see him winning ROY but he is firmly entrenched in the 1st team all rookie at this point.


4th in Raptor
4th in TPA
2nd in EPM

Most would probably have him 4th, I think he should be 3rd in the ROY race.

[LoveMyRaps]

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-dec-22-2021-edition

Barnes rightfully re-claims the #1 spot on the Rookie Ladder.

[zaymon]

Volume stats perhaps but surely you don't think their efficiency, turnovers and defensive metrics wouldn't take a hit if you asked them to do more onball while being gameplanned against with less talent around them including mediocre coaches.

Of course that's completely fair, it's why I think people are being a bit tough on Cade for some of those things but nonetheless their volume stats would go up past Wagner's and again I think Franz was a GREAT pickup by ORL but I think the comparison lacks context that attempts to skew perception of how close these players are as prospects when in reality if given similar circumstance I don't think the numbers would be anywhere near as close as they appear to be now.

Your comparison lacks context aswell. Wagner is having big creation burden, 25,8 % of his offense is as p&r ball handler and teams started to game plan against him becouse he is number 1 option at times. No one is putting schemes how to stop Barnes becouse he is number 4-5 option scoring mostly on cuts, putbacks and in transition. When you put Barnes on the Magic you cant just assume he would score with same efficiency becouse his role now is totally different. He is actually worse driving to the rim with much better spacing. Remember Orlando is starting with 2 centers. You put Barnes who is awful spoting up with 2 centers and you can predict results.
I am not saying Barnes would be worse but you cant assume he would be better. Looking at stats its more probable that his numbers would be actually lower on the Magic.

[Backcountry]

As much as I love Barnes as a Raptor, the guy I'm sure is going to be the most impactful is Cade. He has as-advertised skill, but he also has that "Floor General" kind of intangible that says he's going to lead whatever team he's on. I know that Jalen Green wanted to be chosen #1, but it's not really a contest between the two. In hindsight, I'd go Cade, Mobley, Barnes.

[PhilBlackson]

Volume stats perhaps but surely you don't think their efficiency, turnovers and defensive metrics wouldn't take a hit if you asked them to do more onball while being gameplanned against with less talent around them including mediocre coaches.

Of course that's completely fair, it's why I think people are being a bit tough on Cade for some of those things but nonetheless their volume stats would go up past Wagner's and again I think Franz was a GREAT pickup by ORL but I think the comparison lacks context that attempts to skew perception of how close these players are as prospects when in reality if given similar circumstance I don't think the numbers would be anywhere near as close as they appear to be now.

Your comparison lacks context aswell. Wagner is having big creation burden, 25,8 % of his offense is as p&r ball handler and teams started to game plan against him becouse he is number 1 option at times. No one is putting schemes how to stop Barnes becouse he is number 4-5 option scoring mostly on cuts, putbacks and in transition. When you put Barnes on the Magic you cant just assume he would score with same efficiency becouse his role now is totally different. He is actually worse driving to the rim with much better spacing. Remember Orlando is starting with 2 centers. You put Barnes who is awful spoting up with 2 centers and you can predict results.
I am not saying Barnes would be worse but you cant assume he would be better. Looking at stats its more probable that his numbers would be actually lower on the Magic.

What is this utter nonsense you've come up with about Barnes being mainly putbacks & transition?! Lol truly laughable...perhaps confusing him with Mobley. Scottie is easily one of, if not the most diversified scorers in this draft class...

You're clearly not watching and running off an old narrative from his college days. Scottie is a true 3 level scorer, he only needs to continue to improve his shooting percentages (which he is ahead of Franz at 2pt% and a fraction off from 3pt% despite a slow start from deep) but there is literally very few things Barnes hasn't shown offensively that he can't do (he already routinely hits pull up 2s & 3s, hook shots, post game, stepbacks, drives to the basket, fadeaways, mid-range and on n on...) besides bomb a 3 from the logo so no he wouldn't struggle with your C's and in fact all it would do is help his assist numbers as he'd finally have someone who can catch lob or drop off too. Everdisco already did a deep dive into his numbers but Scottie is one of the least assisted to scorers in this entire draft class (which btw Franz is HIGHER ASSISTED on BOTH his 2pt% - .455 & 3pt% - .902 vs Scottie at 2pt% - .383 & 3pt% - .810 -- sooooo you were saying??? I suggest you actually go watch some footage of Scottie on the season and he's far from some rudimentary energy player as you've made his game sound like and that's not even touching on how he's light years ahead as a passer...

It's not even logical to think that if he was elevated from last option to first or second option (as Franz is) that somehow his volume numbers would drop especially when he is seemingly improving by the week, if not game and that's not an exaggeration to anyone actually watching as clearly you aren't.

[basketballRob]

Of course that's completely fair, it's why I think people are being a bit tough on Cade for some of those things but nonetheless their volume stats would go up past Wagner's and again I think Franz was a GREAT pickup by ORL but I think the comparison lacks context that attempts to skew perception of how close these players are as prospects when in reality if given similar circumstance I don't think the numbers would be anywhere near as close as they appear to be now.

Your comparison lacks context aswell. Wagner is having big creation burden, 25,8 % of his offense is as p&r ball handler and teams started to game plan against him becouse he is number 1 option at times. No one is putting schemes how to stop Barnes becouse he is number 4-5 option scoring mostly on cuts, putbacks and in transition. When you put Barnes on the Magic you cant just assume he would score with same efficiency becouse his role now is totally different. He is actually worse driving to the rim with much better spacing. Remember Orlando is starting with 2 centers. You put Barnes who is awful spoting up with 2 centers and you can predict results.
I am not saying Barnes would be worse but you cant assume he would be better. Looking at stats its more probable that his numbers would be actually lower on the Magic.

What is this utter nonsense you've come up with about Barnes being mainly putbacks & transition?! Lol truly laughable...perhaps confusing him with Mobley. Scottie is easily one of, if not the most diversified scorers in this draft class...

You're clearly not watching and running off an old narrative from his college days. Scottie is a true 3 level scorer, he only needs to continue to improve his shooting percentages (which he is ahead of Franz at 2pt% and a fraction off from 3pt%) but there is literally very few things Barnes hasn't shown offensively that he can't do (he already routinely hits pull up 2s & 3s, hook shots, post game, stepbacks, drives to the basket, fadeaways, mid-range and on n on...) besides bomb a 3 from the logo so no he wouldn't struggle with your C's and in fact all it would do is help his assist numbers as he'd finally have someone who can catch lob or drop off too. Everdisco already did a deep dive into his numbers but he's one of the least assisted to scorers in this draft class. I suggest you actually go watch some footage of Scottie on the season and he's far from some rudimentary energy player as you've made his game sound like and that's not even touching on how he's light years ahead as a passer...

It's not even logical to think that if he was elevated from last option to first or second option (as Franz is) that somehow his volume numbers would drop especially when he is seemingly improving by the week, if not game and that's not an exaggeration to anyone actually watching as clearly you aren't.

Franz is the 3rd or 4th option behind Cole, Suggs, and a combination of Mo/WCJ.

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[PhilBlackson]

Your comparison lacks context aswell. Wagner is having big creation burden, 25,8 % of his offense is as p&r ball handler and teams started to game plan against him becouse he is number 1 option at times. No one is putting schemes how to stop Barnes becouse he is number 4-5 option scoring mostly on cuts, putbacks and in transition. When you put Barnes on the Magic you cant just assume he would score with same efficiency becouse his role now is totally different. He is actually worse driving to the rim with much better spacing. Remember Orlando is starting with 2 centers. You put Barnes who is awful spoting up with 2 centers and you can predict results.
I am not saying Barnes would be worse but you cant assume he would be better. Looking at stats its more probable that his numbers would be actually lower on the Magic.

What is this utter nonsense you've come up with about Barnes being mainly putbacks & transition?! Lol truly laughable...perhaps confusing him with Mobley. Scottie is easily one of, if not the most diversified scorers in this draft class...

You're clearly not watching and running off an old narrative from his college days. Scottie is a true 3 level scorer, he only needs to continue to improve his shooting percentages (which he is ahead of Franz at 2pt% and a fraction off from 3pt%) but there is literally very few things Barnes hasn't shown offensively that he can't do (he already routinely hits pull up 2s & 3s, hook shots, post game, stepbacks, drives to the basket, fadeaways, mid-range and on n on...) besides bomb a 3 from the logo so no he wouldn't struggle with your C's and in fact all it would do is help his assist numbers as he'd finally have someone who can catch lob or drop off too. Everdisco already did a deep dive into his numbers but he's one of the least assisted to scorers in this draft class. I suggest you actually go watch some footage of Scottie on the season and he's far from some rudimentary energy player as you've made his game sound like and that's not even touching on how he's light years ahead as a passer...

It's not even logical to think that if he was elevated from last option to first or second option (as Franz is) that somehow his volume numbers would drop especially when he is seemingly improving by the week, if not game and that's not an exaggeration to anyone actually watching as clearly you aren't.

Franz is the 3rd or 4th option behind Cole, Suggs, and a combination of Mo/WCJ.

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I already posted your starting lineup's usage stats and FGAs which suggest otherwise, not to mention both Cole and Jalen have been missing time with injury.

[Bruin]

Scottie, Mobley, and Cade now

Read on Twitter

?s=21

[basketballRob]

What is this utter nonsense you've come up with about Barnes being mainly putbacks & transition?! Lol truly laughable...perhaps confusing him with Mobley. Scottie is easily one of, if not the most diversified scorers in this draft class...

You're clearly not watching and running off an old narrative from his college days. Scottie is a true 3 level scorer, he only needs to continue to improve his shooting percentages (which he is ahead of Franz at 2pt% and a fraction off from 3pt%) but there is literally very few things Barnes hasn't shown offensively that he can't do (he already routinely hits pull up 2s & 3s, hook shots, post game, stepbacks, drives to the basket, fadeaways, mid-range and on n on...) besides bomb a 3 from the logo so no he wouldn't struggle with your C's and in fact all it would do is help his assist numbers as he'd finally have someone who can catch lob or drop off too. Everdisco already did a deep dive into his numbers but he's one of the least assisted to scorers in this draft class. I suggest you actually go watch some footage of Scottie on the season and he's far from some rudimentary energy player as you've made his game sound like and that's not even touching on how he's light years ahead as a passer...

It's not even logical to think that if he was elevated from last option to first or second option (as Franz is) that somehow his volume numbers would drop especially when he is seemingly improving by the week, if not game and that's not an exaggeration to anyone actually watching as clearly you aren't.

Franz is the 3rd or 4th option behind Cole, Suggs, and a combination of Mo/WCJ.

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I already posted your starting lineup's usage stats and FGAs which suggest otherwise, not to mention both Cole and Jalen have been missing time with injury.

How many players on Toronto have been out with injury. OG, Siakam, Boucher, and wasn't GTJ.

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[Bruin]

Franz is the 3rd or 4th option behind Cole, Suggs, and a combination of Mo/WCJ.

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I already posted your starting lineup's usage stats and FGAs which suggest otherwise, not to mention both Cole and Jalen have been missing time with injury.

How many players on Toronto have been out with injury. OG, Siakam, Boucher, and wasn't GTJ.

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We haven’t even played a game since GTJ went into protocol..

And we’ve basically not even played a game with both OG and Siakam. As soon as one gets healthy, the other has gone out

And Boucher has played in 27 out of 29 games

[PhilBlackson]

Franz is the 3rd or 4th option behind Cole, Suggs, and a combination of Mo/WCJ.

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I already posted your starting lineup's usage stats and FGAs which suggest otherwise, not to mention both Cole and Jalen have been missing time with injury.

How many players on Toronto have been out with injury. OG, Siakam, Boucher, and wasn't GTJ.

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Firstly Boucher is not a starter so irrelevant lol it's only OG or Pascal that have been out individually, not at the same time (Trent has missed maybe a game & Scottie is out with the same protocols now) which still puts Scottie as the 4th option out of 5 players on the court with ALL other starters receiving more FGAs per game. Again I posted your starting lineup, Franz is 2nd and both Cole & Suggs have been out which vaults him to the top of the list on a team begging for offence (2nd last in the entire league)....