Would James Harden and Blake Griffin for Lonzo Ball and Nikola Vucevic trade be upgrade for the Nets ?

[Sebastian]

The bulls are very good this season, but they would lose 4-1 in a 7 game series to the nets if everyone is healthy

I really doubt it. The Bulls are much better than the one team BK beat 4-1 last year (Brown-less Celts). Another way to look at it, last year's out of nowhere overachiever, the Hawks, took the eventual champs, the Bucks to 6 games. This year's Bulls are better than last year's Hawks, and this year's Nets aren't as good as last year's Bucks. On top of that Chicago simply matches up really well with Brooklyn. You could sell me on Milwaukee or even Philly having a shot at beating the Bulls in 5 bc they are matchup nightmares for them, but with the Nets it's likely going 7, especially if the Bulls have Williams back for the postseason. Literally the only thing the Bulls don't do well is rebound and deal with imposing size. Nets are not a good rebounding team and have no imposing size. It's probably a 60-40 matchup in favor of BK if they have Kyrie for the playoffs, and the other way around in favor of Chicago if he's not. In any case the East is a **** ton of fun with 5 teams that could legitimately make a Finals run, whereas with the West we already know it's one of two teams, barring injury.

Perhaps you are right, time will tell. I just think people are under-estimating how good a fully healthy Nets team can be- we didn't see it in last season's playoffs, but we've seen glimpses in the regular season. They are so good offensively, that it wouldn't shock me to see them score 130-150 points.

In terms of the west, I'm not sold on the notion that it will be GSW or PHX. They are both very good, but are not unbeatable juggernauts. I think Utah could beat them, Denver with Murray would give them trouble. As a Clipper fan, it is a pipe dream- but if PG13 recovers and Kawhi makes his way back this season, they could win too. I don't want to say it as a Clipper fan, but if the Lakers somehow jell, then they can be a force to be reckoned with too.

It's the insane defense GS and PHX play that make me think it has to be one of them, as well as the addition of Klay potentially boosting the Warriors up another tier. Utah feels annually to be one player short (unless Donovan suddenly becomes DWade 2.0 as many have been waiting on...), and a healthy Denver I will believe when I see. They do have the best player in the West so there's that. But Murray won't be back til the spring so I don't think you can count on him being a stud this postseason. Maybe next year.

Speaking of health, there's another thing that I think will hamper BK. They are a thin team and an old one, filled with players that have accrued lots of miles that can't really be counted on to be 100% healthy.

[TheLand13]

The idea that a player stops being a Superstar based on a 30 game regular season sample is patently absurd.

Especially after injury.

The idea that his play through 30 games is irrelevant, players never decline and fit doesn't matter is equally absurd

No one said its irrelevent. But 30 games shouldn't be definitive evidence that a player has declined.

When they were elite last year.

Fit matters. I fail to see how Harden can't find with Derozan and Lavine. Its a stupid argument. Hes a great passer and plays PG.

The fact that you're struggling to understand how Harden would be a poor fit alongside those two tells me you don't have any basic understanding of how fit works.

[AussieCeltic]

Both teams fans getting upset but both are right.

Harden is the best player in the trade by a long way, but I don’t think the Bulls would trade for him given roster, age, contract.

The Nets wouldn’t make the trade either as Harden fits the Nets needs and is obviously the better player.

So can we all just settle down and agree this is a bad thread and I think everyone is arguing different points.

your literally saying no to something like smart, timelord, picks to all time great. how many celtics fans say no?

That’s not even close to the same. Of course the Celtics do that. Celtics would also trade Smart/TimeLord for Ball/Vuc in a heartbeat.

Ball/Vuc is better than Smart/TimeLord. We also have Horford while the Bulls have… Tony Bradley?? The Celtics also desperately need a playmaker which Harden would provide.

[KingFox]

Lonzo Ball would be awesome for any team now that he's improved his shooting, but, let's not get crazy here.

[Sane]

So ridiculous this notion. It's a bad trade idea to begin with creating disagreement for nothing, but the season the Bulls are having is a walk in the park for James Harden's career yet all those guys are having breakout years lol. He's done this in the West with the second best player being Eric Gordon.

[kamaze]

Pass on Lonzo James is magnificent.

[Hello Brooklyn]

The idea that his play through 30 games is irrelevant, players never decline and fit doesn't matter is equally absurd

No one said its irrelevent. But 30 games shouldn't be definitive evidence that a player has declined.

When they were elite last year.

Fit matters. I fail to see how Harden can't find with Derozan and Lavine. Its a stupid argument. Hes a great passer and plays PG.

The fact that you're struggling to understand how Harden would be a poor fit alongside those two tells me you don't have any basic understanding of how fit works.

The fact that you can't understand how a PG who is an elite passer can't fit with scoring wings proves you don't have a basic understanding of fit.

He literally fit with KD and Kyrie. Both who score more than Lavine or Derozan.

[TheLand13]

No one said its irrelevent. But 30 games shouldn't be definitive evidence that a player has declined.

When they were elite last year.

Fit matters. I fail to see how Harden can't find with Derozan and Lavine. Its a stupid argument. Hes a great passer and plays PG.

The fact that you're struggling to understand how Harden would be a poor fit alongside those two tells me you don't have any basic understanding of how fit works.

The fact that you can't understand how a PG who is an elite passer can't fit with scoring wings proves you don't have a basic understanding of fit.

He literally fit with KD and Kyrie. Both who score more than Lavine or Derozan.

Demar and Lavine are not KD and Kyrie. They have different play styles, different attitudes and mentalities. James Harden takes away far more shot opportunities away from those two and reduces them to different roles, Lonzo doesn't (who also, btw, plays defense, the fact that Harden doesn't alone makes this a poor fit).

Again, you have no idea how fit works.

[macNcheese3]

Harden isn’t playing like we are use too. He always chokes in the post season - however I would stay put if I was the Nets.

The Bulls chemistry is great and I wouldn’t make a move.

I think that’s the thing Harden fans are getting their panties in a bunch. No one is really saying Lonzo or Vooch are better than Harden. In terms of fit, harden doesn’t fit with the Bulls. We lose our best rebounder and one of the better 3&D PGs in the league. It’s about fit, take a look at the Lakers. Hard no from Chicago.

if your talking fit for harden, man you should not be a gm. you can replenish 3and D with vet mins.
fit matters but if you collect mvp candidates, you can have the worst fit and form a dynasty.

I expressly stated "I would stay put if I was the Nets".

I would not trade Harden especially in that scenario. Ball and "Vooch" are not all it takes to acquire a player like Harden.

Chicago is finally winning some games, their chemistry has been great and I wouldn't make a move is what I stated, I did not state I would not make a move for Harden.

[panthermark]

The one thing the Bulls DON'T need is a ball dominant, no defense playing, scoring wing.
This is a no from the Bulls because he does not really fit what the Bulls need.

The Bulls need three things:
*A good 3&D PF (it would be nice if Patrick Williams could turn into this, but we will see what shakes loose at the deadline).

*Some bench scoring (it would be nice of Coby White could do this on a consistent basis, but we will see what shakes loose at the deadline).

*Vuc to get back to his old self (he is starting to show signs of heating up). Over his last 3 games (all wins), he has shot 23 of 45 (51.1%), including 7 of 17 from deep (41.2%). He is averaging 17.6 ppg and 11.3 rpb over that stretch....and is actually on the good side of +/- for those games as well.

Quoting myself since this was posted before the game. Still need the first two items....but as for a Vuc update. Great game today. There was an article about how the cancelled games really helped Vuc get back to basics. He was STRUGGLING. Since that little break, he has now had 4 straight games with a positive +/- (and 4 straight wins).
With tonight's game, over the last 4 he is now at:
19.25 PPG
12.75 RPG
3.75 APG
1.00 SPG
2.25 BPG
1.00 TOPG
32 out of 64 (50%) from the field
11 out of 25 (44%) from three.
Oddly enough, he can do better as he has only taken 3 free throws over that span (2 for 3).

We don't need Vuc putting up 24 points per game anymore (like he did as an All-Star). We need a consistent, highly efficient 19/11/3/1/1 with limited turnovers, timely threes to create space, and smart position defense. He can do that.

Double quoting myself.
Bulls are getting "some" of what I said we would need.
I mentioned Vuc was starting to heat up. Now over his last 7 games (all wins)
18.1 PPG on 50.5% shooting (including 38.1% from deep).
14.1 RPG
3.0 APG
0.9 SPG
1.6 BPG
Vuc finally remembered he was an All-Star last year...or at least started hitting shots at a normal rate.

Coby White has been forced to start (and had been getting torched on D)....BUT....after hitting rock bottom during the 1st Q of the first Hawks game that was played recently. He finally started getting his scoring groove back. When he isn't scoring, he is useless...but his skillset is basically 6th man of the year type material. A shoot first combo guard.

Over his last 4 games.
18.5 PPG on 50.0% shooting (including a scorching 51.6% from deep. He's hit 16 3's in 4 games).
2.8 RPG
5.3 APG
1.5 SPG
0.5 BPG

While I doubt he keeps that pace up...it is nice to see him remember that he can actually score the ball. Hopefully that carries over when Ball and Curuso get back. Bulls need that type of scoring punch off the bench.

As for the PF spot....well....we shall see what the trade deadline brings in.

Harden is putting up numbers, but as mentioned before, Zach and DeRozen do not need a PG to get them shots....and the Bulls don't need a (another) ISO heavy, ball dominant, weak defense wing/guard. While the Bulls are 5-0, the perimeter defense has been MIA since Ball and Caruso (and now Greene) are/were out.

Fun fact...look who the Bulls best defenders are. Yes Ball and Caruso are up there...but so is Vuc. He is #1 in DTR and tied for #1 with Ball for defensive win share.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2022.html

Fit matters

[rocketsfan100]

Great thread

[pr0wler]

lmfao @ this thread

[LoneyROY]

[rocketsfan100]

Harden is so far ahead of DeMare and Zach as an impact player it’s not funny. The guy is just getting his fitness up to speed he followed up his last game of 26 points 12 assists 8 boards game with a cool 25 points 16 assts 7 boards demolition job on the bulls. Sorry the Nets would laugh at that offer. Look at his numbers past COVID return. They are as good as anyone’s

[DarkXaero]

Great bump

[Karate Diop]

I hate one game overreactions... But with Vuc we have enough
of a sample size to know he'll get run off the court and tank the Bulls defense when good teams make it their mission to target him...

[HardenGoat]

Unbelievable thread.

[Madhouse]

lol