Tank World Order (6.0)

[Bruin]

It's easier to build around Scottie than to tank and hope that player fits with Scottie. Giannis-Middleton >>> Giannis-Jabari Parker.

Anyway, at this point in the season it's still too early to call it. The Raptors need to make a move. Barnes has three future volume shooter outlets and could use a 4th, or a dominant roll man. Seems to be like Siakam would be the odd man out in terms of a trade, but that doesn't have to be made this year.

I’d trust Masai to do better than to use a 2nd pick on a bust like Jabari Parker. If our management wasn’t so great, then maybe I’d agree. But give Masai a #2 pick and I’d be confident he’s gonna get a star

[Vampirate]

The core as I see it is Barnes and OG (i'm talking 3-5 years from now), maybe Banton depending on how he develops. GTJ is pretty much up in the air and FVV and Siakam are probably not on the team by then due to them being over 30 and expensive.

Ideally either by trade/FA/draft whatever they need another piece that will be below or at his prime once Barnes reaches his.

This year is not only a development year, it's a bridge year regardless of wins/losses.

[Vampirate]

Everybody complained about the Barnes pick the moment it happened, now we all delightfully look like idiots.

just playing the odds.
lotto pick has a better chance to turn into a star. the higher the lotto pick the better the chance to move up into top 4. If we could compliment that with a steal late 1st rounder or 2nd rounder it would be optimal but winning big with just 1 lotto pick is really difficult.

We're maybe approaching that catch 22 scenario.

1. You want Barnes to develop over all else.

2. You want to pair Barnes with another All Star, easiest way by draft.

3. Barnes has the possibility of being so good that the Raptors cannot land a top 10 pick as long as he's on the team (see 2021 Cavs)


You want #2 to happen but not at the expense of #1

If #3 Happens you might be in a Mavs like scenario and then things get tricky.


One of the reasons the Cavs couldn't build a contender around Lebron and Lebron left the first go around is because Lebron guaranteed a top 3 record in the East, thus very hard to draft that 2nd star.

At the same time you still have to develop Lebron over all else and let him become the player he became.


A catch 22.


For the Raptors, you develop Barnes over all else and hope you get lucky somehow, someway in getting that 2nd star.

[Ref_from_hell]

The core as I see it is Barnes and OG (i'm talking 3-5 years from now), maybe Banton depending on how he develops. GTJ is pretty much up in the air and FVV and Siakam are probably not on the team by then due to them being over 30 and expensive.

Ideally either by trade/FA/draft whatever they need another piece that will be below or at his prime once Barnes reaches his.

This year is not only a development year, it's a bridge year regardless of wins/losses.

Gary Trent Junior is only 22. The young core as I see it is Barnes, OG, Trent Junior, and then one of either Fred or Pascal for more of a veteran leadership role.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's easier to build around Scottie than to tank and hope that player fits with Scottie. Giannis-Middleton >>> Giannis-Jabari Parker.

Anyway, at this point in the season it's still too early to call it. The Raptors need to make a move. Barnes has three future volume shooter outlets and could use a 4th, or a dominant roll man. Seems to be like Siakam would be the odd man out in terms of a trade, but that doesn't have to be made this year.

I’d trust Masai to do better than to use a 2nd pick on a bust like Jabari Parker. If our management wasn’t so great, then maybe I’d agree. But give Masai a #2 pick and I’d be confident he’s gonna get a star

I'd trust him, too, but Ben Simmons is a star and a bad fit with Embiid. It doesn't always work like you think it can work, and that's the difficulty. It's not really an argument for tanking, either. Or against it. In my view, you build around one player and then use time to figure out what they can and can't do and then add Robins accordingly. Maybe Barnes isn't a Batman, but he's shown as much as any rookie really does and is worth building around. So, instead of committing hard to a 1-2 draft punch, you take 1 (maybe it's really a 2) and you use time and what you currently have to figure out the correct recipe.

As I see it, Barnes can likely be a fulcrum of the offense and will have OG/Trent/FVV as excellent catch and shoot spacers. He will need someone to play the 5 defensively and either finish everything or space (or both). That's a unicorn, but sometimes that comes in the form of Al Horford (on the Celtics) and it works, or Brook Lopez on the Bucks. It doesn't have to be super expensive.

The time to tank, as always, is when the season is already doomed, because it's better to have higher lottery odds than lower lottery odds.

[Vampirate]

The core as I see it is Barnes and OG (i'm talking 3-5 years from now), maybe Banton depending on how he develops. GTJ is pretty much up in the air and FVV and Siakam are probably not on the team by then due to them being over 30 and expensive.

Ideally either by trade/FA/draft whatever they need another piece that will be below or at his prime once Barnes reaches his.

This year is not only a development year, it's a bridge year regardless of wins/losses.

Gary Trent Junior is only 22. The young core as I see it is Barnes, OG, Trent Junior, and then one of either Fred or Pascal for more of a veteran leadership role.

Contract, GTJ is a client of Klutch Sports and is on a 3 year deal with a Player Option. When the time comes, it's up in the air how much he'll want Money over staying with the Raptors.

Essentially, don't know if Masai will retain him because of $$$.

[will]

Scottie & Chet, bayyybeeee!!!

[Los_29]

Remember when TwO claimed the Lakers winning a championship last year was a successful tank job despite the fact they signed arguably the 2nd best player of all-time? A better example would be to look at the New Orleans Pelicans who inherited all of the Laker's lottery picks and see how they have done. It's been a complete and utter disaster and are destined for a top 5 pick this year. I quite enjoy all these failed examples of tanks. I wonder what the next gem will be.

Now TwO is having a meltdown and are accusing people of having burner accounts again.

And it appears as though a certain poster is still rolling with that illogical, nonsensical argument about looking at number of voters. The fact he doesn't understand that a thread about tanking would generally attract more posters that are in favour of tanking than against tanking is hilarious. In addition, the poll was so bad for about two weeks that most people didn't even bother voting, including myself and posters actually referenced how bad the poll was a few weeks ago. Lastly, the majority of people in this thread wanted Jalen Green and Jalen Suggs and wanted nothing to do with Scottie prior to the draft. Considering how often TwO has been wrong, it's probably not wise to use consensus as an argument.

I like to follow a strategy that has been proven to build championships and is one that the best executives in the league use including ours. The strategy that you guys want was attempted about 10 years ago and the person who did it is now in another sport because it was such a disaster. He literally was so bad that he had to switch sports.

[KL78192020]

Remember when TwO claimed the Lakers winning a championship last year was a successful tank job despite the fact they signed arguably the 2nd best player of all-time? A better example would be to look at the New Orleans Pelicans who inherited all of the Laker's lottery picks and see how they have done. It's been a complete and utter disaster and are destined for a top 5 pick this year. I quite enjoy all these failed examples of tanks. I wonder what the next gem will be.

Now TwO is having a meltdown and are accusing people of having burner accounts again.

And it appears as though a certain poster is still rolling with that illogical, nonsensical argument about looking at number of voters. The fact he doesn't understand that a thread about tanking would generally attract more posters that are in favour of tanking than against tanking is hilarious. In addition, the poll was so bad for about two weeks that most people didn't even bother voting, including myself and posters actually referenced how bad the poll was a few weeks ago. Lastly, the majority of people in this thread wanted Jalen Green and Jalen Suggs and wanted nothing to do with Scottie prior to the draft. Considering how often TwO has been wrong, it's probably not wise to use consensus as an argument.

I like to follow a strategy that has been proven to build championships and is one that the best executives in the league use including ours. The strategy that you guys want was attempted about 10 years ago and the person who did it is now in another sport because it was such a disaster. He literally was so bad that he had to switch sports.

You're a genius ballboy you're a genius! I'm shocked Masai hasn't hired you yet!

[Madhouse]

Sure the probability of drafting an mvp caliber player isn’t high, but it’s definitely higher than drafting one with a later pick or through a trade. I’m confident in masai getting an all star caliber player with a top 10 pick. Doesn’t need to be MVP caliber necessarily. We got the potential MVP caliber prospect in Scottie already. We need his sidekick for the future now

Lottery picks can be acquired via trade as well (see the Knicks trade were we got the #9 pick).

You can also find players who develop late in their careers and turn into superstar players (see guys like Lowry, Nash, Billups).

Again, both rare scenarios, but are also ways to find lottery picks or lottery level talent outside of a deliberate tank.

Again, obviously if we the team falls way below .500 and is clearly bad, I'm all for tanking and getting the best pick possible.

But let's say the team finally gets healthy and Barnes is playing like a future star, OG is playing like a star, and Fred and Siakam are playing well and they have the 6-8 seed. Are you seriously going to cheer for the team to lose or want Masai to trade the core mid-way through the season and rebuild?

Yeah we could always trade for a pick, but how often does that happen? Teams don’t trade unprotected lotto picks very often and after Masai fleeced the Knicks, teams are probably more hesitant to deal with him

There’s also the chance of trading up, but when has Masai actually ever done it? He wanted to trade up for SGA and Giannis, but didn’t do it cause he couldn’t get teams to accept his offers. Masai won’t make a trade like that unless he’s lowballing a team. Other teams won’t give him a lotto pick that easily

And in the scenario you mentioned, if we did happen to start winning games and it became clear we were headed for the playoffs, then sure I’d support the team in the playoffs. I wouldn’t be excited to make the playoffs as a 7-8 seed since it doesn’t really do that much for us in terms of the future, especially in comparison to acquiring another lotto pick

You could argue that getting Scottie playoff experience in his rookie year would be good, and yeah I agree it could be nice. But how many stars needed the playoffs in their rookie year to become winning players? Lebron didn’t make the playoffs as a rookie. Neither did Steph, Giannis, KD, etc. many of the hugest stars in the league didn’t make the playoffs as a rookie and it didn’t effect them from reaching the MVP caliber status that they’ve reached. I’d be against a tank next season cause I wouldn’t want Scottie to miss the playoffs after the rookie year, but this year idc much for it. This is the final year I’m on the tank

If we are in the play in, I’d root for us to make it. Only because the gap between picking 14-16 is minimal. But I personally hope we’re not near the play in and are in the top 10

The difficult thing is to accomplish a tank without blowing it up. Blowing it up and really starting from scratch isn't smart. But I really don't see what's wrong with hoping for a lotto pick while keeping the core intact. To win big we would at least have to score big with a guy like Middleton outside the lottery but that's probably not enough. I think what we need on top of solid, quality starters in Anunoby, Trent and higher quality starters/fringe Allstars in FVV/Siakam is a perennial sure fire Allstar next to Barnes. That is of course unless Barnes becomes the best player in the world, then it might not be needed. But realistically it is. We used 2 former lotto picks as trade assets for Leonard and another for Gasol. It's very unlikely we win a title with 1 lotto pick on the team. We need more talent.

[Madhouse]

Remember when TwO claimed the Lakers winning a championship last year was a successful tank job despite the fact they signed arguably the 2nd best player of all-time? A better example would be to look at the New Orleans Pelicans who inherited all of the Laker's lottery picks and see how they have done. It's been a complete and utter disaster and are destined for a top 5 pick this year. I quite enjoy all these failed examples of tanks. I wonder what the next gem will be.

Now TwO is having a meltdown and are accusing people of having burner accounts again.

And it appears as though a certain poster is still rolling with that illogical, nonsensical argument about looking at number of voters. The fact he doesn't understand that a thread about tanking would generally attract more posters that are in favour of tanking than against tanking is hilarious. In addition, the poll was so bad for about two weeks that most people didn't even bother voting, including myself and posters actually referenced how bad the poll was a few weeks ago. Lastly, the majority of people in this thread wanted Jalen Green and Jalen Suggs and wanted nothing to do with Scottie prior to the draft. Considering how often TwO has been wrong, it's probably not wise to use consensus as an argument.

I like to follow a strategy that has been proven to build championships and is one that the best executives in the league use including ours. The strategy that you guys want was attempted about 10 years ago and the person who did it is now in another sport because it was such a disaster. He literally was so bad that he had to switch sports.

Watch on YouTube

[KrazyP]

You’d think in the face of mounting evidence they could see where TWO is coming from, yet no, they still don’t get it.

Do you like Barnes? Great, we got him by tanking at the end of last season

How about our previous draft picks? Do you think we did well to draft OG and Siakam in the 20’s?

We have a great drafting FO, maybe best in the league. Giving them higher picks seems like that could work out for us. This ain’t the Babcock show anymore.

You don’t have to agree with TWO but it would be nice if people could use their brains to evaluate the whole picture.

Example: I can see where Team Mediocre is coming from. Great players can be found late lotto. Flat out tanking could be detrimental to a culture. Losing a lot also sucks.

What? Your post is all over the place there.

If you can’t read it’s not my fault. Other posters understood it.

Did you even digest what I was saying in my original post?

Nobody here is anti-draft. Some people are on board with what Ujiri/Nurse are doing...tank nation is not.

The current management team takes time to develop, evaluate and assess. They dont head into seasons purposely trying to lose. This is the crux of this thread. Most TWO posters cheer for losses and label wins as "fake wins" to patronize people which is stupid....childish nonsense. Overtime, I've realized not to take this thread seriously and just use it for comic relief like I said in my above post.

[Madhouse]

Everybody complained about the Barnes pick the moment it happened, now we all delightfully look like idiots.

just playing the odds.
lotto pick has a better chance to turn into a star. the higher the lotto pick the better the chance to move up into top 4. If we could compliment that with a steal late 1st rounder or 2nd rounder it would be optimal but winning big with just 1 lotto pick is really difficult.

We're maybe approaching that catch 22 scenario.

1. You want Barnes to develop over all else.

2. You want to pair Barnes with another All Star, easiest way by draft.

3. Barnes has the possibility of being so good that the Raptors cannot land a top 10 pick as long as he's on the team (see 2021 Cavs)


You want #2 to happen but not at the expense of #1

If #3 Happens you might be in a Mavs like scenario and then things get tricky.


One of the reasons the Cavs couldn't build a contender around Lebron and Lebron left the first go around is because Lebron guaranteed a top 3 record in the East, thus very hard to draft that 2nd star.

At the same time you still have to develop Lebron over all else and let him become the player he became.


A catch 22.


For the Raptors, you develop Barnes over all else and hope you get lucky somehow, someway in getting that 2nd star.

I think 1 and 2 can be done at the same time.

[Los_29]

Everybody complained about the Barnes pick the moment it happened, now we all delightfully look like idiots.

just playing the odds.
lotto pick has a better chance to turn into a star. the higher the lotto pick the better the chance to move up into top 4. If we could compliment that with a steal late 1st rounder or 2nd rounder it would be optimal but winning big with just 1 lotto pick is really difficult.

We're maybe approaching that catch 22 scenario.

1. You want Barnes to develop over all else.

2. You want to pair Barnes with another All Star, easiest way by draft.

3. Barnes has the possibility of being so good that the Raptors cannot land a top 10 pick as long as he's on the team (see 2021 Cavs)


You want #2 to happen but not at the expense of #1

If #3 Happens you might be in a Mavs like scenario and then things get tricky.


One of the reasons the Cavs couldn't build a contender around Lebron and Lebron left the first go around is because Lebron guaranteed a top 3 record in the East, thus very hard to draft that 2nd star.

At the same time you still have to develop Lebron over all else and let him become the player he became.


A catch 22.


For the Raptors, you develop Barnes over all else and hope you get lucky somehow, someway in getting that 2nd star.

Finding an all-star in the draft is actually the hardest of all the options. The easiest way is to trade for one. Like we did, like the Lakers did. Like the Bucks did i.e. the last three teams to win a championship.

I think you'd be surprised at how bad a teams odds are of drafting an all-star. You're destined for failure if you think you're going to find Scottie's running mate in the draft.

[KL78192020]

just playing the odds.
lotto pick has a better chance to turn into a star. the higher the lotto pick the better the chance to move up into top 4. If we could compliment that with a steal late 1st rounder or 2nd rounder it would be optimal but winning big with just 1 lotto pick is really difficult.

We're maybe approaching that catch 22 scenario.

1. You want Barnes to develop over all else.

2. You want to pair Barnes with another All Star, easiest way by draft.

3. Barnes has the possibility of being so good that the Raptors cannot land a top 10 pick as long as he's on the team (see 2021 Cavs)


You want #2 to happen but not at the expense of #1

If #3 Happens you might be in a Mavs like scenario and then things get tricky.


One of the reasons the Cavs couldn't build a contender around Lebron and Lebron left the first go around is because Lebron guaranteed a top 3 record in the East, thus very hard to draft that 2nd star.

At the same time you still have to develop Lebron over all else and let him become the player he became.


A catch 22.


For the Raptors, you develop Barnes over all else and hope you get lucky somehow, someway in getting that 2nd star.

Finding an all-star in the draft is actually the hardest of all the options. The easiest way is to trade for one. Like we did, like the Lakers did. Like the Bucks did i.e. the last three teams to win a championship.

I think you'd be surprised at how bad a teams odds are of drafting an all-star. You're destined for failure if you think you're going to find Scottie's running mate in the draft.

Exactly, the Raptors all stars Demar/Siakam came out of thin air, they were never drafted. Bro you're on it. Masai hire this guy now!!! I'm joining team mediocre.

How do we get the next Kawhi? When do we trade for him? whats the plan? These tankers just wana tank for the next 10 years.

[Johnny Bball]

What? Your post is all over the place there.

If you can’t read it’s not my fault. Other posters understood it.

Did you even digest what I was saying in my original post?

Nobody here is anti-draft. Some people are on board with what Ujiri/Nurse are doing...tank nation is not.

The current management team takes time to develop, evaluate and assess. They dont head into seasons purposely trying to lose. This is the crux of this thread. Most TWO posters cheer for losses and label wins as "fake wins" to patronize people which is stupid....childish nonsense. Overtime, I've realized not to take this thread seriously and just use it for comic relief like I said in my above post.

I didn't waste my time voting that's for sure.

Why would you take any of it seriously. It's one thing that someone gets a laugh out of trolling and winding someone up. Imagine how much laughing there is about people that are actually convinced by "the comic relief".

[Vampirate]

just playing the odds.
lotto pick has a better chance to turn into a star. the higher the lotto pick the better the chance to move up into top 4. If we could compliment that with a steal late 1st rounder or 2nd rounder it would be optimal but winning big with just 1 lotto pick is really difficult.

We're maybe approaching that catch 22 scenario.

1. You want Barnes to develop over all else.

2. You want to pair Barnes with another All Star, easiest way by draft.

3. Barnes has the possibility of being so good that the Raptors cannot land a top 10 pick as long as he's on the team (see 2021 Cavs)


You want #2 to happen but not at the expense of #1

If #3 Happens you might be in a Mavs like scenario and then things get tricky.


One of the reasons the Cavs couldn't build a contender around Lebron and Lebron left the first go around is because Lebron guaranteed a top 3 record in the East, thus very hard to draft that 2nd star.

At the same time you still have to develop Lebron over all else and let him become the player he became.


A catch 22.


For the Raptors, you develop Barnes over all else and hope you get lucky somehow, someway in getting that 2nd star.

I think 1 and 2 can be done at the same time.

You missed my entire point.

You do #1 above all else.

If Barnes develops exponentially fast #3 will happen (being in the 1-5 seed in the east), possibly before #2 has a chance to occur.

If #3 happens, which we all want to happen because it means Barnes has developed into a legit Superstar, it'll be that much harder to do #2 because having Barnes on the floor leads to wins, leading to a high seed in the playoffs. Being a high seed obviously means it'll be that much harder to land an impact player through the draft or have that pick as good trade bait.

[720]

We're maybe approaching that catch 22 scenario.

1. You want Barnes to develop over all else.

2. You want to pair Barnes with another All Star, easiest way by draft.

3. Barnes has the possibility of being so good that the Raptors cannot land a top 10 pick as long as he's on the team (see 2021 Cavs)


You want #2 to happen but not at the expense of #1

If #3 Happens you might be in a Mavs like scenario and then things get tricky.


One of the reasons the Cavs couldn't build a contender around Lebron and Lebron left the first go around is because Lebron guaranteed a top 3 record in the East, thus very hard to draft that 2nd star.

At the same time you still have to develop Lebron over all else and let him become the player he became.


A catch 22.


For the Raptors, you develop Barnes over all else and hope you get lucky somehow, someway in getting that 2nd star.

I think 1 and 2 can be done at the same time.

You missed my entire point.

You do #1 above all else.

If Barnes develops exponentially fast #3 will happen (being in the 1-5 seed in the east), possibly before #2 has a chance to occur.

If #3 happens, which we all want to happen because it means Barnes has developed into a legit Superstar, it'll be that much harder to do #2 because having Barnes on the floor leads to wins, leading to a high seed in the playoffs. Being a high seed obviously means it'll be that much harder to land an impact player through the draft or have that pick as good trade bait.

If #3 happens we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Obviously in such a scenario the best direction at that point is just keep supporting his growth and another lotto pick is basically impossible at that point because like you said he's too good and has lifted the team out of the lottery.

[Madhouse]

We're maybe approaching that catch 22 scenario.

1. You want Barnes to develop over all else.

2. You want to pair Barnes with another All Star, easiest way by draft.

3. Barnes has the possibility of being so good that the Raptors cannot land a top 10 pick as long as he's on the team (see 2021 Cavs)


You want #2 to happen but not at the expense of #1

If #3 Happens you might be in a Mavs like scenario and then things get tricky.


One of the reasons the Cavs couldn't build a contender around Lebron and Lebron left the first go around is because Lebron guaranteed a top 3 record in the East, thus very hard to draft that 2nd star.

At the same time you still have to develop Lebron over all else and let him become the player he became.


A catch 22.


For the Raptors, you develop Barnes over all else and hope you get lucky somehow, someway in getting that 2nd star.

I think 1 and 2 can be done at the same time.

You missed my entire point.

You do #1 above all else.

If Barnes develops exponentially fast #3 will happen (being in the 1-5 seed in the east), possibly before #2 has a chance to occur.

If #3 happens, which we all want to happen because it means Barnes has developed into a legit Superstar, it'll be that much harder to do #2 because having Barnes on the floor leads to wins, leading to a high seed in the playoffs. Being a high seed obviously means it'll be that much harder to land an impact player through the draft or have that pick as good trade bait.

I didn't miss your point, lol. You do #1 and at the same time #2 has a decent chance of happening. Unless you think #3 has a chance of happening THIS SEASON. You can develop Barnes more and more as the season goes on and still be in heavy contention for a lottery pick UNLESS Barnes has a totally different gear in him THIS SEASON. And developing a rookie you take the good with the bad which sometimes results in more losses.

We are only talking about this season anyway. Beyond next year there will be no hope for a lotto pick.

[NinjaBro]

Happy new year everybody!