Why is Steph Curry labeled as "changing the game" when he hasnt forced the league to change or alter anything?

[HardenandWilt]

And nobody emulated them because they did not win.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

WRONG, the jazz, hawks, and mavericks all play moreyball. In fact the jazz last year broke the rockets record for most 3's made and attempted in a season. Mitchell, trae young, and luka are all staples in modern morey-ball offense

The truth is NOBODY plays like the warriors, the warriors have had the highest payroll in the league since going on how long now. Most teams cant afford to spend like that. Morey-ball is the easiest way to win while not breaking the bank. And teams around the league know this

It doesn't take salary to run a constant motion offence.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

If what you say is true, then why arent other teams copying the warriors. The bucks, nets and hawks all made the the last 8 of the playoffs last year. And all those teams use heliocentric offenses for the most part. No team can spend like the warriors, where they can afford to pay wiggins a max, klay a max, draymond a mid level max, curry a max and then being paying durant( or number 2 overall pick money). What curry had, most star players especially during these teams can not afford

[Colbinii]

WRONG, the jazz, hawks, and mavericks all play moreyball. In fact the jazz last year broke the rockets record for most 3's made and attempted in a season. Mitchell, trae young, and luka are all staples in modern morey-ball offense

The truth is NOBODY plays like the warriors, the warriors have had the highest payroll in the league since going on how long now. Most teams cant afford to spend like that. Morey-ball is the easiest way to win while not breaking the bank. And teams around the league know this

It doesn't take salary to run a constant motion offence.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

If what you say is true, then why arent other teams copying the warriors.

The easy answer is "Teams don't have Steph Curry". But, I think there is a better answer which better encapsulates players like Harden and Trae--They like to have the ball in their hands and be in control.

Could you imagine how Trae or Harden would react to their coach asking them to run around screens all day? Well, for one, they aren't trained for that. But two, they wouldn't do it. We already saw Harden next to Paul and he would stand 5-10 feet off the 3 point line playing the "Your Turn, my turn" game.

The bucks, nets and hawks all made the the last 8 of the playoffs last year. And all those teams use heliocentric offenses for the most part. No team can spend like the warriors, where they can afford to pay wiggins a max, klay a max, draymond a mid level max, curry a max and then being paying durant( or number 2 overall pick money). What curry had, most star players especially during these teams can not afford

I think you're over rating the supporting cast of the Warriors here.

[falcolombardi]

It doesn't take salary to run a constant motion offence.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

If what you say is true, then why arent other teams copying the warriors.

The easy answer is "Teams don't have Steph Curry". But, I think there is a better answer which better encapsulates players like Harden and Trae--They like to have the ball in their hands and be in control.

Could you imagine how Trae or Harden would react to their coach asking them to run around screens all day? Well, for one, they aren't trained for that. But two, they wouldn't do it. We already saw Harden next to Paul and he would stand 5-10 feet off the 3 point line playing the "Your Turn, my turn" game.

The bucks, nets and hawks all made the the last 8 of the playoffs last year. And all those teams use heliocentric offenses for the most part. No team can spend like the warriors, where they can afford to pay wiggins a max, klay a max, draymond a mid level max, curry a max and then being paying durant( or number 2 overall pick money). What curry had, most star players especially during these teams can not afford

I think you're over rating the supporting cast of the Warriors here.

offensively or overall ?

offensively sure, they are not a outlier good offensive supporting cast except the durant years

but on the flipside, the -offensive- results are not outlier great either except for 1 season (2016) even this year their O is "merely" good rather than dominant like their defense is

overall? they have had some really great defensive casts including this year so i argue they are a fairly loaded team overall (both sides of the court ) most years

if not in the ways people usually think of stacked teams(3~ strong scorers or 2 offensive mega stars)

in that regard they remind me of the second threepeat bulls that were loaded in every area (rebounding. defenders, spacing, playmakers) except the only one most people focus on: having multiple great scorers, which makes people underate their overall amount of talent

[HardenandWilt]

It doesn't take salary to run a constant motion offence.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

If what you say is true, then why arent other teams copying the warriors.

The easy answer is "Teams don't have Steph Curry". But, I think there is a better answer which better encapsulates players like Harden and Trae--They like to have the ball in their hands and be in control.

Could you imagine how Trae or Harden would react to their coach asking them to run around screens all day? Well, for one, they aren't trained for that. But two, they wouldn't do it. We already saw Harden next to Paul and he would stand 5-10 feet off the 3 point line playing the "Your Turn, my turn" game.

The bucks, nets and hawks all made the the last 8 of the playoffs last year. And all those teams use heliocentric offenses for the most part. No team can spend like the warriors, where they can afford to pay wiggins a max, klay a max, draymond a mid level max, curry a max and then being paying durant( or number 2 overall pick money). What curry had, most star players especially during these teams can not afford

I think you're over rating the supporting cast of the Warriors here.

No I’m not, do the warriors have the highest payroll in the league. ITS A YES OR NO ANSWER

If one just has to insert curry to be a dominant team, then why weren’t the warriors a factor the last 2 years. Curry was there both years. The simple and only problem was spacing. Players like lebron and harden especially in 2020 and 2016 for harden in particular were on teams with little to no spacing. But they had no problem making the playoffs. Lebron if he was younger would have no issue carrying Russ to the playoffs like harden did in 2020.

Curry is the only guy I can think off in sports that is overrated as he is and that gets passes from the media. For one thing I know James harden wouldn’t even make a single all-nba team if he had the year curry had last year and didn’t make the playoffs.

Bottom line Curry is actually a 2 guard masquerading a pg. curry doesn’t know how to control the pace of a game like cp3,Luka, lebron and harden. The warriors have draymond for that very reason. You are underselling the warriors roster. Otto porter jr for example is like a better version of Trevor Ariza in his prime and was once on a max contract

Also you criticize harden and cp3 2018 Houston rockets calling it a your turn, my turn offense. When the suns just went to finals with that same approach( moreyball is the best approach if you have an owner like tilman or robert sarver). The only difference is the suns were not screwed over like the rockets were by crappy officiating

[Warriors Analyst]

If what you say is true, then why arent other teams copying the warriors.

The easy answer is "Teams don't have Steph Curry". But, I think there is a better answer which better encapsulates players like Harden and Trae--They like to have the ball in their hands and be in control.

Could you imagine how Trae or Harden would react to their coach asking them to run around screens all day? Well, for one, they aren't trained for that. But two, they wouldn't do it. We already saw Harden next to Paul and he would stand 5-10 feet off the 3 point line playing the "Your Turn, my turn" game.

The bucks, nets and hawks all made the the last 8 of the playoffs last year. And all those teams use heliocentric offenses for the most part. No team can spend like the warriors, where they can afford to pay wiggins a max, klay a max, draymond a mid level max, curry a max and then being paying durant( or number 2 overall pick money). What curry had, most star players especially during these teams can not afford

I think you're over rating the supporting cast of the Warriors here.

No I’m not, do the warriors have the highest payroll in the league. ITS A YES OR NO ANSWER

If one just has to insert curry to be a dominant team, then why weren’t the warriors a factor the last 2 years. Curry was there both years. The simple and only problem was spacing. Players like lebron and harden especially in 2020 and 2016 for harden in particular were on teams with little to no spacing. But they had no problem making the playoffs. Lebron if he was younger would have no issue carrying Russ to the playoffs like harden did in 2020.

Curry is the only guy I can think off in sports that is overrated as he is and that gets passes from the media. For one thing I know James harden wouldn’t even make a single all-nba team if he had the year curry had last year and didn’t make the playoffs.

Bottom line Curry is actually a 2 guard masquerading a pg. curry doesn’t know how to control the pace of a game like cp3,Luka, lebron and harden. The warriors have draymond for that very reason. You are underselling the warriors roster. Otto porter jr for example is like a better version of Trevor Ariza in his prime and was once on a max contract

Also you criticize harden and cp3 2018 Houston rockets calling it a your turn, my turn offense. When the suns just went to finals with that same approach( moreyball is the best approach if you have an owner like tilman or robert sarver). The only difference is the suns were not screwed over like the rockets were by crappy officiating

It's fun watching you dig your hole deeper and deeper as this thread goes on and more people disagree with you.

The payroll talk is nonsensical. The Warriors ran the motion offense pre-KD and before they paid the luxury tax. Payroll has nothing to do with the Warriors running a motion offense.

As for the idea that Steph got a pass from the media last year: The Warriors were 1-6 in their games without Steph Curry last year and they were 15-5 in their final 20 games of the season where Wiseman and Oubre sat. The Warriors punted a lot of winnable games last year because of front office politics impeding on Steve Kerr, which resulted in heavy minutes for Oubre and Wiseman. Had the Warriors simply gone .500 in their non-Steph games, they make the playoffs. It's not complicated.

Another silly thing you're saying: The Warriors have Draymond specifically because Steph "doesn't know how to control the pace of a game." Hilarious. The Warriors have Draymond because he's a generational level defender and one of the best playmaking bigs. Of course they want to keep him around, it's not like they do so because he makes up for Steph's supposed flaw. The flip side, which you conveniently ignore, is that Steph Curry is so good off-ball that he has allowed the Warriors to trot out guys who are non-shooters like Shaun Livingston, Andre Iguodala, and Juan Toscano-Anderson for heavy minutes alongside Steph without messing up the offense. Steph's off-ball ability is incredible and makes a lot of guys with plus playmaking but poor shooting ability far more useful than they would be in other offenses, such as the Moreyball offense.

[eminence]

I will agree that most teams currently play more similarly to the Harden Rockets than to the Curry Warriors.

But to me the Rockets have a clear precursor in the MDA/Nash Suns. The Warriors to date don’t have any serious imitators as best I can tell.

[HardenandWilt]

The easy answer is "Teams don't have Steph Curry". But, I think there is a better answer which better encapsulates players like Harden and Trae--They like to have the ball in their hands and be in control.

Could you imagine how Trae or Harden would react to their coach asking them to run around screens all day? Well, for one, they aren't trained for that. But two, they wouldn't do it. We already saw Harden next to Paul and he would stand 5-10 feet off the 3 point line playing the "Your Turn, my turn" game.



I think you're over rating the supporting cast of the Warriors here.

No I’m not, do the warriors have the highest payroll in the league. ITS A YES OR NO ANSWER

If one just has to insert curry to be a dominant team, then why weren’t the warriors a factor the last 2 years. Curry was there both years. The simple and only problem was spacing. Players like lebron and harden especially in 2020 and 2016 for harden in particular were on teams with little to no spacing. But they had no problem making the playoffs. Lebron if he was younger would have no issue carrying Russ to the playoffs like harden did in 2020.

Curry is the only guy I can think off in sports that is overrated as he is and that gets passes from the media. For one thing I know James harden wouldn’t even make a single all-nba team if he had the year curry had last year and didn’t make the playoffs.

Bottom line Curry is actually a 2 guard masquerading a pg. curry doesn’t know how to control the pace of a game like cp3,Luka, lebron and harden. The warriors have draymond for that very reason. You are underselling the warriors roster. Otto porter jr for example is like a better version of Trevor Ariza in his prime and was once on a max contract

Also you criticize harden and cp3 2018 Houston rockets calling it a your turn, my turn offense. When the suns just went to finals with that same approach( moreyball is the best approach if you have an owner like tilman or robert sarver). The only difference is the suns were not screwed over like the rockets were by crappy officiating

It's fun watching you dig your hole deeper and deeper as this thread goes on and more people disagree with you.

The payroll talk is nonsensical. The Warriors ran the motion offense pre-KD and before they paid the luxury tax. Payroll has nothing to do with the Warriors running a motion offense.

As for the idea that Steph got a pass from the media last year: The Warriors were 1-6 in their games without Steph Curry last year and they were 15-5 in their final 20 games of the season where Wiseman and Oubre sat. The Warriors punted a lot of winnable games last year because of front office politics impeding on Steve Kerr, which resulted in heavy minutes for Oubre and Wiseman. Had the Warriors simply gone .500 in their non-Steph games, they make the playoffs. It's not complicated.

Another silly thing you're saying: The Warriors have Draymond specifically because Steph "doesn't know how to control the pace of a game." Hilarious. The Warriors have Draymond because he's a generational level defender and one of the best playmaking bigs. Of course they want to keep him around, it's not like they do so because he makes up for Steph's supposed flaw. The flip side, which you conveniently ignore, is that Steph Curry is so good off-ball that he has allowed the Warriors to trot out guys who are non-shooters like Shaun Livingston, Andre Iguodala, and Juan Toscano-Anderson for heavy minutes alongside Steph without messing up the offense. Steph's off-ball ability is incredible and makes a lot of guys with plus playmaking but poor shooting ability far more useful than they would be in other offenses, such as the Moreyball offense.

Are curry stans not insecure about harden being remmebered as the guy who rightfully changed the game and not steph curry. Harden brought in and populaized the stepback which is a common move now on the aau circuit. Harden side step three also is a popular move

the way teams were defending harden when he was in houston we have never seen before

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

as far as changing the game, what has steph curry really changed( most nba rookies coming into league emulate james harden not steph).

the 2013 rockets were taking 30 thees a night under moreyball( which is the same offense the curent jazz, mavs, clippers, and hawks run). The warriors in that same season were at 19.9 and lower than that prior to the game the rockets set the record againist them

Morey, Sam Hinkie, and James harden are more influential than bob myers and steph curry. It was morey in 2009 who brought the focus on analytics to the nba

[HardenandWilt]

even in fiba harden is creating clones

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[parsnips33]

If what you say is true, then why arent other teams copying the warriors.

The easy answer is "Teams don't have Steph Curry". But, I think there is a better answer which better encapsulates players like Harden and Trae--They like to have the ball in their hands and be in control.

Could you imagine how Trae or Harden would react to their coach asking them to run around screens all day? Well, for one, they aren't trained for that. But two, they wouldn't do it. We already saw Harden next to Paul and he would stand 5-10 feet off the 3 point line playing the "Your Turn, my turn" game.

The bucks, nets and hawks all made the the last 8 of the playoffs last year. And all those teams use heliocentric offenses for the most part. No team can spend like the warriors, where they can afford to pay wiggins a max, klay a max, draymond a mid level max, curry a max and then being paying durant( or number 2 overall pick money). What curry had, most star players especially during these teams can not afford

I think you're over rating the supporting cast of the Warriors here.

offensively or overall ?

offensively sure, they are not a outlier good offensive supporting cast except the durant years

but on the flipside, the -offensive- results are not outlier great either except for 1 season (2016) even this year their O is "merely" good rather than dominant like their defense is

overall? they have had some really great defensive casts including this year so i argue they are a fairly loaded team overall (both sides of the court ) most years

if not in the ways people usually think of stacked teams(3~ strong scorers or 2 offensive mega stars)

in that regard they remind me of the second threepeat bulls that were loaded in every area (rebounding. defenders, spacing, playmakers) except the only one most people focus on: having multiple great scorers, which makes people underate their overall amount of talent

How clean of a distinction is there between offense and defense here? Do certain stars like say a Jordan or Curry give you more latitude to play more offensively limited but defensively capable guys higher minutes than you could otherwise get away with? Most perimeter stars now have at least 1 if not 2 relatively high volume 3 point shooters in their starting frontcourts, Steph has not really ever had that. Not ideal for the offense, but if it's good enough and gives you the ability to have Draymond/Bogut or Draymond/Looney out there defensively, might be worth it.

[parsnips33]

Is the idea of the thread that if Curry changed the game Harden could not have and vice versa? Isn't it obvious that both guys have had a major impact on how the game is played now?

[Warriors Analyst]

No I’m not, do the warriors have the highest payroll in the league. ITS A YES OR NO ANSWER

If one just has to insert curry to be a dominant team, then why weren’t the warriors a factor the last 2 years. Curry was there both years. The simple and only problem was spacing. Players like lebron and harden especially in 2020 and 2016 for harden in particular were on teams with little to no spacing. But they had no problem making the playoffs. Lebron if he was younger would have no issue carrying Russ to the playoffs like harden did in 2020.

Curry is the only guy I can think off in sports that is overrated as he is and that gets passes from the media. For one thing I know James harden wouldn’t even make a single all-nba team if he had the year curry had last year and didn’t make the playoffs.

Bottom line Curry is actually a 2 guard masquerading a pg. curry doesn’t know how to control the pace of a game like cp3,Luka, lebron and harden. The warriors have draymond for that very reason. You are underselling the warriors roster. Otto porter jr for example is like a better version of Trevor Ariza in his prime and was once on a max contract

Also you criticize harden and cp3 2018 Houston rockets calling it a your turn, my turn offense. When the suns just went to finals with that same approach( moreyball is the best approach if you have an owner like tilman or robert sarver). The only difference is the suns were not screwed over like the rockets were by crappy officiating

It's fun watching you dig your hole deeper and deeper as this thread goes on and more people disagree with you.

The payroll talk is nonsensical. The Warriors ran the motion offense pre-KD and before they paid the luxury tax. Payroll has nothing to do with the Warriors running a motion offense.

As for the idea that Steph got a pass from the media last year: The Warriors were 1-6 in their games without Steph Curry last year and they were 15-5 in their final 20 games of the season where Wiseman and Oubre sat. The Warriors punted a lot of winnable games last year because of front office politics impeding on Steve Kerr, which resulted in heavy minutes for Oubre and Wiseman. Had the Warriors simply gone .500 in their non-Steph games, they make the playoffs. It's not complicated.

Another silly thing you're saying: The Warriors have Draymond specifically because Steph "doesn't know how to control the pace of a game." Hilarious. The Warriors have Draymond because he's a generational level defender and one of the best playmaking bigs. Of course they want to keep him around, it's not like they do so because he makes up for Steph's supposed flaw. The flip side, which you conveniently ignore, is that Steph Curry is so good off-ball that he has allowed the Warriors to trot out guys who are non-shooters like Shaun Livingston, Andre Iguodala, and Juan Toscano-Anderson for heavy minutes alongside Steph without messing up the offense. Steph's off-ball ability is incredible and makes a lot of guys with plus playmaking but poor shooting ability far more useful than they would be in other offenses, such as the Moreyball offense.

Are curry stans not insecure about harden being remmebered as the guy who rightfully changed the game and not steph curry. Harden brought in and populaized the stepback which is a common move now on the aau circuit. Harden side step three also is a popular move

the way teams were defending harden when he was in houston we have never seen before

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

as far as changing the game, what has steph curry really changed( most nba rookies coming into league emulate james harden not steph).

the 2013 rockets were taking 30 thees a night under moreyball( which is the same offense the curent jazz, mavs, clippers, and hawks run). The warriors in that same season were at 19.9 and lower than that prior to the game the rockets set the record againist them

Morey, Sam Hinkie, and James harden are more influential than bob myers and steph curry. It was morey in 2009 who brought the focus on analytics to the nba

You ignored all of my points and went on to just keep rehashing the things you want to litigate. For the second time now you've claimed that the Warriors intentionally upped their three-point attempts specifically in reaction to the Rockets breaking the three-point record against them. You have no sourcing for this.

[f4p]

Has if not occurred to you that your extreme Harden bias is colouring your judgement?

has it occurred to you that the media likes lazy narratives and "steph shoots lots of 3's and teams shoot lots of 3's so it must be steph" is a pretty obvious lazy narrative for them to latch on to? the rockets were way out ahead of the league in 3 point attempts and analytics in general was pushing it. the reason teams take so many 3's now is because guys like brook lopez and marc gasol went from taking like 10 career 3's to taking hundreds a season because analytics figured out it was a good idea, not because brook lopez was copying steph's 30 foot 3's.

Why the **** would the Rockets, the team that never won a championship, let alone 3 championships in 5 years have been more responsible for the proliferation of the 3 than the Warriors?

because the rockets were doing it because of analytics, which is now so pervasive that it's even changing the way nfl head coaches, the most conservative people in world history, do their jobs. the 3 point revolution was always going to happen, even if the rockets weren't the first ones to really push it.

And no, teams aren't playing Morey Ball, they're just taking a **** tonne of 3's.

LOL, come on man.

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/kirk-goldsberry-explains-how-the-game-has-changed-from-2001-to-2020

look at those shot charts. that is morey-ball in all its visual glory. literally only shots from the 3 point line and in the paint, with the shots in the paint almost forming the outline of a hand giving the finger to the mid-range area. even the warriors this year are playing their most morey-esque ball, almost never shooting in the mid-range.

[f4p]

Man, it's already been explained to you all sorts of nuance that pre-dates these Rockets, and you're still not even bothering to incorporate any of that into your worldview.

You're stuck. You've got an opinion that aggrandizes a particular player - Harden - and despite the fact you're now in a group who understands your reasoning precisely and has rebutted you, none of it is sticking.

i mean, he's having to argue against people that think the modern nba shot chart isn't directly traceable to the 3's and layups philosophy promoted by morey and people who think that more teams are running the warriors motion offense than teams like the jazz or mavs that spread the court for 3's and layups. the warriors are lightly copied at best. i don't see how that's not true. i think you were even somehow arguing that harden started shooting more 3's because curry did and not because harden's shot chart started looking exactly like what was promoted by his gm, morey.

spamming 3's comes from analytics, not watching curry shoot 3's.

people are saying 3's went up by 2.9 per game after 2016 because of the warriors. OK, well, they went up by about 1.5 every season for the 4 years before that. so maybe the warriors added an extra 1.5. that's out of the 35.5 threes that an average team takes today. or are we just giving them all credit for extra 3's since then despite the fact that analytics has taken a hold more and more, not only in the nba but also in mlb (homers/walks/strikeouts) and in the nfl (go for it on 4th down more)?

[f4p]

Could you imagine how Trae or Harden would react to their coach asking them to run around screens all day? Well, for one, they aren't trained for that. But two, they wouldn't do it.

could you imagine a coach that looked at his stocky shooting guard who is built like a brick ****house and doesn't have a superquick release and then asked that guy to run around off screens like only the most agile guards who know how to shoot off the move have ever done? especially if that guy is an iso wizard who can also read defenses and run PnR's extremely well. it would be a crazy request.

We already saw Harden next to Paul and he would stand 5-10 feet off the 3 point line playing the "Your Turn, my turn" game.

maybe after scoring 35 ppg, it turns out harden is a human with limited amounts of energy? why isn't steph expected to run around all game and then also iso 50+ times a game?

[f4p]

But to me the Rockets have a clear precursor in the MDA/Nash Suns.

but did we (rockets) really look like phoenix? the suns were much more about pace than space, although they had the space. they tried to beat you down the court, and were willing to play someone like amare at center to accomplish that. they wanted to score before your defense got in place and they would take whatever shot came along to make that happen. obviously they still had the nash/amare PnR to fall back on but nash didn't even really seem to shoot a ton of 3's out of it, usually taking long 2's.

the rockets were a slow-paced team and cared much more about space than pace. they didn't try to beat your defense down the court, they let it get set and then just ruthlessly hunted out the biggest analytical weakness in that defense and either PnR'd or iso'd that weakness into submission, whether it was the year before cp3 got there with harden PnR's or after cp3 got there with the my turn/your turn iso strategy.

but obviously some things were similar with d'antoni leading both teams.

[eminence]

But to me the Rockets have a clear precursor in the MDA/Nash Suns.

but did we (rockets) really look like phoenix? the suns were much more about pace than space, although they had the space. they tried to beat you down the court, and were willing to play someone like amare at center to accomplish that. they wanted to score before your defense got in place and they would take whatever shot came along to make that happen. obviously they still had the nash/amare PnR to fall back on but nash didn't even really seem to shoot a ton of 3's out of it, usually taking long 2's.

the rockets were a slow-paced team and cared much more about space than pace. they didn't try to beat your defense down the court, they let it get set and then just ruthlessly hunted out the biggest analytical weakness in that defense and either PnR'd or iso'd that weakness into submission, whether it was the year before cp3 got there with harden PnR's or after cp3 got there with the my turn/your turn iso strategy.

but obviously some things were similar with d'antoni leading both teams.

They only really slowed down once CP3 arrived. The Rockets played quite quickly prior to that.

1st
5th
2nd
7th
3rd

In pace the 5 Harden seasons prior to CP3.

Harden certainly did change from Nash's days in adding the PnR off the dribble 3 to his arsenal (Curry and a few others adding the shot at a similar point in time, pretty much nobody was shooting those prior).

[Colbinii]

But to me the Rockets have a clear precursor in the MDA/Nash Suns.

but did we (rockets) really look like phoenix? the suns were much more about pace than space, although they had the space. they tried to beat you down the court, and were willing to play someone like amare at center to accomplish that. they wanted to score before your defense got in place and they would take whatever shot came along to make that happen. obviously they still had the nash/amare PnR to fall back on but nash didn't even really seem to shoot a ton of 3's out of it, usually taking long 2's.

the rockets were a slow-paced team and cared much more about space than pace. they didn't try to beat your defense down the court, they let it get set and then just ruthlessly hunted out the biggest analytical weakness in that defense and either PnR'd or iso'd that weakness into submission, whether it was the year before cp3 got there with harden PnR's or after cp3 got there with the my turn/your turn iso strategy.

but obviously some things were similar with d'antoni leading both teams.

What?

The year D'Antonti joined the Rockets vaulted up to the 3rd highest pace team in the league. The team slowed down because they added Chris Paul who is a historically slow player [At least compared to D'Antoni and Nash]. The teams pace shot up once CP3 left [2020] to 2nd in the league.

Before you say "But they weren't similar to the SSOL Suns", I think we need to understand that D'Antoni is always changing, improvising and building on his previous iterations.

If we think of the Suns with Nash as his level 1 Offensive Philosophy, then the Houston Rockets under D'Antoni took it up to Level 2.

What were the principals of the Suns?
1) Efficient Shots
2) Play fast
3) Get the ball to the playmaker and let him operate

Didn't the Houston Rockets offense do all these? The Pace numbers sure indicate as such. The types of shots [primarily 3 and at-rim] indicate as such. The usage rate of Harden and the type of players Morey assembled around Harden indicate as such.

If you can't see how this offense evolved from the Suns then you're blind.

[falcolombardi]

The easy answer is "Teams don't have Steph Curry". But, I think there is a better answer which better encapsulates players like Harden and Trae--They like to have the ball in their hands and be in control.

Could you imagine how Trae or Harden would react to their coach asking them to run around screens all day? Well, for one, they aren't trained for that. But two, they wouldn't do it. We already saw Harden next to Paul and he would stand 5-10 feet off the 3 point line playing the "Your Turn, my turn" game.



I think you're over rating the supporting cast of the Warriors here.

No I’m not, do the warriors have the highest payroll in the league. ITS A YES OR NO ANSWER

If one just has to insert curry to be a dominant team, then why weren’t the warriors a factor the last 2 years. Curry was there both years. The simple and only problem was spacing. Players like lebron and harden especially in 2020 and 2016 for harden in particular were on teams with little to no spacing. But they had no problem making the playoffs. Lebron if he was younger would have no issue carrying Russ to the playoffs like harden did in 2020.

Curry is the only guy I can think off in sports that is overrated as he is and that gets passes from the media. For one thing I know James harden wouldn’t even make a single all-nba team if he had the year curry had last year and didn’t make the playoffs.

Bottom line Curry is actually a 2 guard masquerading a pg. curry doesn’t know how to control the pace of a game like cp3,Luka, lebron and harden. The warriors have draymond for that very reason. You are underselling the warriors roster. Otto porter jr for example is like a better version of Trevor Ariza in his prime and was once on a max contract

Also you criticize harden and cp3 2018 Houston rockets calling it a your turn, my turn offense. When the suns just went to finals with that same approach( moreyball is the best approach if you have an owner like tilman or robert sarver). The only difference is the suns were not screwed over like the rockets were by crappy officiating

It's fun watching you dig your hole deeper and deeper as this thread goes on and more people disagree with you.

The payroll talk is nonsensical. The Warriors ran the motion offense pre-KD and before they paid the luxury tax. Payroll has nothing to do with the Warriors running a motion offense.

As for the idea that Steph got a pass from the media last year: The Warriors were 1-6 in their games without Steph Curry last year and they were 15-5 in their final 20 games of the season where Wiseman and Oubre sat. The Warriors punted a lot of winnable games last year because of front office politics impeding on Steve Kerr, which resulted in heavy minutes for Oubre and Wiseman. Had the Warriors simply gone .500 in their non-Steph games, they make the playoffs. It's not complicated.

Another silly thing you're saying: The Warriors have Draymond specifically because Steph "doesn't know how to control the pace of a game." Hilarious. The Warriors have Draymond because he's a generational level defender and one of the best playmaking bigs. Of course they want to keep him around, it's not like they do so because he makes up for Steph's supposed flaw. The flip side, which you conveniently ignore, is that Steph Curry is so good off-ball that he has allowed the Warriors to trot out guys who are non-shooters like Shaun Livingston, Andre Iguodala, and Juan Toscano-Anderson for heavy minutes alongside Steph without messing up the offense. Steph's off-ball ability is incredible and makes a lot of guys with plus playmaking but poor shooting ability far more useful than they would be in other offenses, such as the Moreyball offense.

i agree for the most part but iguodala definetely was not a nonshooter, lets not overstate warriors lack of shooters around curry

[f4p]

But to me the Rockets have a clear precursor in the MDA/Nash Suns.

but did we (rockets) really look like phoenix? the suns were much more about pace than space, although they had the space. they tried to beat you down the court, and were willing to play someone like amare at center to accomplish that. they wanted to score before your defense got in place and they would take whatever shot came along to make that happen. obviously they still had the nash/amare PnR to fall back on but nash didn't even really seem to shoot a ton of 3's out of it, usually taking long 2's.

the rockets were a slow-paced team and cared much more about space than pace. they didn't try to beat your defense down the court, they let it get set and then just ruthlessly hunted out the biggest analytical weakness in that defense and either PnR'd or iso'd that weakness into submission, whether it was the year before cp3 got there with harden PnR's or after cp3 got there with the my turn/your turn iso strategy.

but obviously some things were similar with d'antoni leading both teams.

They only really slowed down once CP3 arrived. The Rockets played quite quickly prior to that.

1st
5th
2nd
7th
3rd

In pace the 5 Harden seasons prior to CP3.

Harden certainly did change from Nash's days in adding the PnR off the dribble 3 to his arsenal (Curry and a few others adding the shot at a similar point in time, pretty much nobody was shooting those prior).

i was really only focusing on the d'antoni years in houston when it felt like we really went all out on moreyball. i wouldn't say mchale was doing much that reminded me on d'antoni and we still had howard struggling to post up for most of those years. the only similarity was that we played pretty fast, even moreso than when we actually had d'antoni.

[f4p]

But to me the Rockets have a clear precursor in the MDA/Nash Suns.

but did we (rockets) really look like phoenix? the suns were much more about pace than space, although they had the space. they tried to beat you down the court, and were willing to play someone like amare at center to accomplish that. they wanted to score before your defense got in place and they would take whatever shot came along to make that happen. obviously they still had the nash/amare PnR to fall back on but nash didn't even really seem to shoot a ton of 3's out of it, usually taking long 2's.

the rockets were a slow-paced team and cared much more about space than pace. they didn't try to beat your defense down the court, they let it get set and then just ruthlessly hunted out the biggest analytical weakness in that defense and either PnR'd or iso'd that weakness into submission, whether it was the year before cp3 got there with harden PnR's or after cp3 got there with the my turn/your turn iso strategy.

but obviously some things were similar with d'antoni leading both teams.

If you can't see how this offense evolved from the Suns then you're blind.

uhh, calm down.

What?

The year D'Antonti joined the Rockets vaulted up to the 3rd highest pace team in the league.

we didn't vault to anything. we were already a fast-paced team the previous 4 seasons. getting rid of the anchor known as dwight howard was probably more responsible than anything for the slight bump from 7th to 3rd (also the team not hating each other).

The team slowed down because they added Chris Paul who is a historically slow player [At least compared to D'Antoni and Nash]. The teams pace shot up once CP3 left [2020] to 2nd in the league.

yeah, and that's mostly the years i was talking about (certainly wasn't talking about the westbrook year), when we were at our peak. admittedly we were faster in 2017 than i remembered but 2018 we were 13th in pace and 2019 we plummeted to 26th. the suns never dropped below 4th and were 1st twice. 2018/2019 were not running at every opportunity and just cramming pace down the other team's throat.

Before you say "But they weren't similar to the SSOL Suns", I think we need to understand that D'Antoni is always changing, improvising and building on his previous iterations.

If we think of the Suns with Nash as his level 1 Offensive Philosophy, then the Houston Rockets under D'Antoni took it up to Level 2.

What were the principals of the Suns?
1) Efficient Shots
2) Play fast
3) Get the ball to the playmaker and let him operate

Didn't the Houston Rockets offense do all these? The Pace numbers sure indicate as such. The types of shots [primarily 3 and at-rim] indicate as such. The usage rate of Harden and the type of players Morey assembled around Harden indicate as such.

1) and 3) are what lots of offenses do. steve nash didn't iso a million times a game like harden and cp3. switching wasn't really a thing back then but i don't recall the suns mercilessly hunting mismatches (again, they weren't iso'ing like us). they ran their nash/amare pick and roll and went from their in the halfcourt. they didn't seek to eliminate all the mid-range shots like the rockets. the cp3 rockets barely ran. and our peak years didn't even come close to being fast-paced. obviously there are going to be similarities with the same coach but the thing that scared most people about the suns was trying to keep up with how fast they were playing (even if the rockets sometimes also played fast). what scared most people about the rockets was being in the halfcourt and trying to not end up with a center guarding harden or cp3 (even if nash also ended up on centers as well) or trying to guard ryan anderson and eric gordon out to 29 feet without letting capela get alley-oops.